State of hockey: Denmark vs Switzerland
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The swiss have a faaaaaaar better league, far more total hockey players and more financing of hockey...
Think they will always be more consistent
Think they will always be more consistent
Zippy316
aka Zippo
Denmark seems to be separating themselves from the relegation pack at all levels, but they're still a step behind Switzerland.
Switzerland seems to be pushing their way into the conversation with Czech Republic/Slovakia of late. Switzerland also has shown the ability of late to go toe-to-toe with any of the top teams on a given night, Denmark hasn't shown that at the level of Switzerland. Denmark seems to have supplanted Latvia and Belarus in that #9 spot behind Finland, Canada, Russia, USA, Sweden, Czech Republic, Slovakia, and Switzerland (in no order) and seems to be developing more top talent than those countries.
Switzerland seems to be pushing their way into the conversation with Czech Republic/Slovakia of late. Switzerland also has shown the ability of late to go toe-to-toe with any of the top teams on a given night, Denmark hasn't shown that at the level of Switzerland. Denmark seems to have supplanted Latvia and Belarus in that #9 spot behind Finland, Canada, Russia, USA, Sweden, Czech Republic, Slovakia, and Switzerland (in no order) and seems to be developing more top talent than those countries.
MeHateHe
Registered User
- Dec 24, 2006
- 2,860
- 3,286
I feel like the Swiss should be further ahead than they are, given their relative affluence and the fact that they have a long-established, successful domestic league, which has been one of the strongest in Europe for decades.
They would be further ahead, I think, if they focused a little more on using their domestic league for development. There are simply too many foreigners on their clubs - and not exactly stars, either.
I'm not sure Denmark ever fully catches Switzerland or merely joins Belarus/Latvia in that middling pool. Maybe they'll get a bump from their recent success, combined with hosting the elite senior championships next year.
They would be further ahead, I think, if they focused a little more on using their domestic league for development. There are simply too many foreigners on their clubs - and not exactly stars, either.
I'm not sure Denmark ever fully catches Switzerland or merely joins Belarus/Latvia in that middling pool. Maybe they'll get a bump from their recent success, combined with hosting the elite senior championships next year.
I think the Swiss are better, but my goodness, Herning Denmark is one of the best hockey towns in the world.
Frans Nielsen
Peter Regin
Oliver Bjorkstrand
Nicklas Jensen
Fredrick Andersen
Over 1000 NHL games from a town of 50,000 in a non traditional hockey country is pretty impressive.
Frans Nielsen
Peter Regin
Oliver Bjorkstrand
Nicklas Jensen
Fredrick Andersen
Over 1000 NHL games from a town of 50,000 in a non traditional hockey country is pretty impressive.
Wouldn't say supplanted, but joined that group. If you look at their top end talent they should be toe-to-toe with Slovakia and Switzerland today but they don't seem to have the depth to really pull it together. Still couldn't qualify for OG2018 with most of their players this time, getting beat out by Belarus and Slovenia, and don't really make a lot of noise at the Worlds. And you've still got Germany with Draisaitl & Norway with MZA.
Switzerland & Slovakia are, despite upsets here and there, undoubtedly better than these nations... I doubt any of them realistically have a chance at a silver medal at any impending WCs.
Denmark half a decade ago used to be a clear tier below these teams, hanging around with the France, Italy and Kazakhstans of the hockey world, but have obviously separated themselves from the pack. It's been great that they've been able to stay up in the U20 year after year - a trend I'd bet on continuing.
If you have a look at all-time Danish NHL players (http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/nationality/danish-nhl-players-career-stats.html), you'll see they're all in recent years. 9 active NHLers (10 if you count Regin, who could probably be one if he wanted a 4th line role somewhere, 11 if you count Lauridsen who might be a serviceable 7th/8th dman) and all of them have still at least 5 years left in their career, with some (Ehlers, Bodker, Andersen) potentially being elite top liners/goaltenders. With upcoming new potential impact draftees... the future is indeed very bright for Denmark.
Switzerland is better and it's not even close, however, it's a great question.
Denmark shouldn't be compared to Switzerland, but rather Slovakia. Here's why. There are 7 countries in the world that have self-sustaining and self-promoting domestic organizational infrastructures. Canada, America, Russia, Finland, Sweden, Czech Republic, and Switzerland. Every other country relies on exporting their top youth to outside systems in order to develop and probably even more importantly in my experience to promote them.
Among the tier 2 nations, nations that depend on exports, Denmark definitely sits pretty close to the top of the list. Losing to Belarus and Slovenia won't matter in the long term. Slovenia will be worse than Italy in about 5 years and Belarus is working it's way out of relevance as well. The top tier 2 nations are in no particular order Slovakia, Denmark, Germany, and Latvia.
Denmark shouldn't be compared to Switzerland, but rather Slovakia. Here's why. There are 7 countries in the world that have self-sustaining and self-promoting domestic organizational infrastructures. Canada, America, Russia, Finland, Sweden, Czech Republic, and Switzerland. Every other country relies on exporting their top youth to outside systems in order to develop and probably even more importantly in my experience to promote them.
Among the tier 2 nations, nations that depend on exports, Denmark definitely sits pretty close to the top of the list. Losing to Belarus and Slovenia won't matter in the long term. Slovenia will be worse than Italy in about 5 years and Belarus is working it's way out of relevance as well. The top tier 2 nations are in no particular order Slovakia, Denmark, Germany, and Latvia.
Two countries that try to improve in different ways.
Denmark seems to have a way smaller hockey base than Switzerland, however what they produce is of very good quality. AFAIK, most of the Danish hockey development takes place in Sweden actually, and not in Denmark (or Switzerland - Ehlers, hehe). Appears like kind of an outsourced elite development to me.
Hockey is and has been well established in Switzerland for decades, it's present in media and popular among spectators; the clear cut number 2 sport in Switzerland after football (soccer) - and the gap is not that big. The hockey base in Switzerland is bigger than in Denmark, more active players, however relative to the amount of players we don't produce more star talent, if at all.
Hard to say if one country can get much better than the other in the next few years. The prospects have been there for some years now, but the thing is how many of them and with what impact they actually make it to the NHL. In my totally subjective opinion, Swiss prospects have a tendency to underachieve rather than to surprise. Maybe that's because once we have a really promising prospect, expectation can get high quickly.
And concerning germany: From my outside view it appears that hockey simply isn't a sport of national importance in Germany. They're as good as they are simply because Germany is huge and there's bound to be some good players in that mass of people.
Denmark seems to have a way smaller hockey base than Switzerland, however what they produce is of very good quality. AFAIK, most of the Danish hockey development takes place in Sweden actually, and not in Denmark (or Switzerland - Ehlers, hehe). Appears like kind of an outsourced elite development to me.
Hockey is and has been well established in Switzerland for decades, it's present in media and popular among spectators; the clear cut number 2 sport in Switzerland after football (soccer) - and the gap is not that big. The hockey base in Switzerland is bigger than in Denmark, more active players, however relative to the amount of players we don't produce more star talent, if at all.
Hard to say if one country can get much better than the other in the next few years. The prospects have been there for some years now, but the thing is how many of them and with what impact they actually make it to the NHL. In my totally subjective opinion, Swiss prospects have a tendency to underachieve rather than to surprise. Maybe that's because once we have a really promising prospect, expectation can get high quickly.
And concerning germany: From my outside view it appears that hockey simply isn't a sport of national importance in Germany. They're as good as they are simply because Germany is huge and there's bound to be some good players in that mass of people.
slovakiasnextone
Registered User
Perhaps on a bit of an unrelated note, but what has happened with Norway lately?
It kinda seems like they have reached their prime at the men's level in recent years, but the coming years don't seem that promising.
They even got relegated to Div IB at the u20s and weren't far from the same fate at the last u18s Div IA.
It kinda seems like they have reached their prime at the men's level in recent years, but the coming years don't seem that promising.
They even got relegated to Div IB at the u20s and weren't far from the same fate at the last u18s Div IA.
OscarsCards
Spooky action at a distance
Switzerland >= Slovakia
Denmark =< Germany
Yes, Denmark has produced great and many talents lately but that's not the only thing that determines which is stronger and better.
Denmark =< Germany
Yes, Denmark has produced great and many talents lately but that's not the only thing that determines which is stronger and better.
Hockey is a fringe sport in Germany but with 80 million people a few are bound to be good. Kind of like soccer in the US.
Nah, I still think Slovakia is a bit better than we are. But it's close.
That's the way I see the top 10:
Canada >> Sweden > Russia/USA/Finland >> Czech Republic >> Slovakia >= Switzerland > Denmark/Germany
Belarus has lots of potential. With population bigger than Finland and hockey being Lukashenkos favourite sport. They are building lots of new arenas around the country.
Belenos
Registered User
Since the 2004/05 lockout 5 Swiss goalkeepers have played in the NHL compared to 1 out of Denmark. There were 21 skaters out of Switzerland and 11 out of Denmark.
So in total there were 26 Swiss NHL players compared to 12 from Denmark. Mass wise Switzerland seems to be better and there are some talented players for the upcoming years with Hischier, Meier and co.
But at the same time Denmark has some very interesting players, Ehlers for example, who played in the same soccer-team in Biel, my hometown.
If they are not playing against each other, i tend to cheer for them. We have almost the same flag, that's a big plus...
So in total there were 26 Swiss NHL players compared to 12 from Denmark. Mass wise Switzerland seems to be better and there are some talented players for the upcoming years with Hischier, Meier and co.
But at the same time Denmark has some very interesting players, Ehlers for example, who played in the same soccer-team in Biel, my hometown.
If they are not playing against each other, i tend to cheer for them. We have almost the same flag, that's a big plus...
At the same time the Czechs and Slovaks are dropping. With 4 Czechs and 0 Slovaks drafted last summer.
BruinLVGA
Just got me a Beretta 92XI Squalo!
One thing that not many know (especially the young ones...) about Switzerland and hockey is that until relatively not long ago - talking about till the early 1990s - Swiss players weren't fully pro, including the best ones. They had part time jobs outside of hockey. Not kidding.
For example, in the financial institution I used to work at back then, we had one of the top Swiss players in the nation - a forward named Roberto Triulzi... he also played for Switzerland at world championships & Olympics, look him up... - in our IT department. Imagine what it does to one's hockey development when one has a part time job for a couple of days a week... Of course I don't think Triulzi fixed many computers, but still that was time lost for hockey.
It is not by chance that there were no Swiss prospects drafted until the late 90s. Being pro at 70% or so is not enough to compete with the best.
And it is not a coincidence either that more Swiss youngsters have been drafted since hockey went FULL pro in Switzerland in the early 90s (probably 1990, 1991). Roughly a quarter of a century later, there's a chance - albeit a little outside one - that a Swiss kid, Nico Hischier, could even be a 1st overall.
Switzerland has a great passion for hockey and I doubt that Denmark will be producing more talent in 5 years from now. I think Switzerland will solidify its position right behind the usual "suspects" (CAN, USA, SWE, RUS, FIN) & alongside the Czech Republic, for talent production.
For example, in the financial institution I used to work at back then, we had one of the top Swiss players in the nation - a forward named Roberto Triulzi... he also played for Switzerland at world championships & Olympics, look him up... - in our IT department. Imagine what it does to one's hockey development when one has a part time job for a couple of days a week... Of course I don't think Triulzi fixed many computers, but still that was time lost for hockey.
It is not by chance that there were no Swiss prospects drafted until the late 90s. Being pro at 70% or so is not enough to compete with the best.
And it is not a coincidence either that more Swiss youngsters have been drafted since hockey went FULL pro in Switzerland in the early 90s (probably 1990, 1991). Roughly a quarter of a century later, there's a chance - albeit a little outside one - that a Swiss kid, Nico Hischier, could even be a 1st overall.
Switzerland has a great passion for hockey and I doubt that Denmark will be producing more talent in 5 years from now. I think Switzerland will solidify its position right behind the usual "suspects" (CAN, USA, SWE, RUS, FIN) & alongside the Czech Republic, for talent production.
Denmark is ahead of Germany. Germany supposedly has a self-developing system which in theory should make it the better side but that system is going to shambles right now.
Norway always relied on the Swedish feeder like Denmark. They peaked and are now falling because of just sheer lack of production. The same could happen to Denmark in the future if they don't develop their own organizational infrastructure. The general problem in Norway seems to be skating though, all hella slow.
Belarus' problem is the bottleneck of production. You can make the bottle wider but the amount of water trickling out won't increase.
Norway always relied on the Swedish feeder like Denmark. They peaked and are now falling because of just sheer lack of production. The same could happen to Denmark in the future if they don't develop their own organizational infrastructure. The general problem in Norway seems to be skating though, all hella slow.
Belarus' problem is the bottleneck of production. You can make the bottle wider but the amount of water trickling out won't increase.
Norwegian sports culture seems to be more individualistic than the other Nordic countries. They seem to like skiing by themselves in the woods more than getting together for team sports.
torero
Registered User
You touch a very important point about Switzerland.
Today, to go for a hockey/sports career is something that is realistic.
10 years or 15 years ago ... it wasn't serious and nobody would have encouraged you to do so and parents would have discouraged you.
When i was young, i was dedicating like 25 hours training to be champ in something (not hockey). I would work, and be unemployed and train (6months / 6 months) ... . Today is another world for Switzerland. A sport career can be serious if you are good at it. And this opens doors for young players to emerge.
Another aspect is that hockey has gained in popularity, and the traditional hockey player providers , Bern region, Davos region, mountains and Jura are not alone to produce players anymore. The cities have started as well. In Geneva (my city) their would be 1 club with 2 junior teams 15 years ago. Today, their are 4 or 5 clubs with 2 or more teams and all are full. Same development for Lausanne, the city that is in the neighborhood. In spite of having more ice surfaces ... all are 100% busy. And in cities, they put ice surfaces on the local places ... they use it to play "small field" hockey. Something that didn't exist 10 years ago. So not only is growing the interest for it as fans, but the popularity to play is exploding.
So the results are a bit disappointing on a international level so far. Because Under the Kruger era, we would trap ... with success and we had great goal-tending at the time. Now The Swiss breed has exploded (a bit like Russia when they opened ... they had very difficult years). and 1/2 of the team plays in NA. So while the globality of talent is higher, the team chemistry and the global output is lower because of decreased homogeneity. And we have no super goal-tending anymore (actually a weak spot now).
In the medium future i see us higher, and probably higher than Danemark.
Canada/Sweden/Russia/USA >Finland >> Czech Republic >Switzerland> Slovakia > Denmark/Germany
Until some other countries join us which i see as a long future (15 to 20 yrs) Bielorussia ...i believe in Germany, Brits could also wake up or Norvegians or Frenchs.
Because Hockey is on the rise. Way more spectacular than many other sports. Technology of cold is evolving and available worldwide ... . Money in sports is growing. Hockey is storming from North to south (i really had this understanding when i was in Qatar and saw how in a shopping mall, they had a hockey rink with some guys playing while it was 45+ degrees outside the mall). Medias make hockey watchable World wide ... and medias explosion are only 10 to 15 yrs old. That could be an important vector.
Well he wasn't asking why has Norway never been a powerhouse but why they've been on the decline.
Not enough emphasis on skating techniques. Agents have shifted their focus over to Denmark. Honestly nothing that couldn't be changed pretty quickly but whenever you depend on someone else's development systems and pipelines and whatnot there are a lot of players who will fall through the cracks and crevasses. They could momentarily get better only to fall again. However, at this stage in the growth of hockey this is not a good time to be falling.
