So where do you rank Johnny Bower?

Big Phil

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Nov 2, 2003
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Very sad as a Leafs fan to hear about his death. 93 is a nice age to hit so he had quite the full life, but I always thought of Johnny as the Maple Leafs' grandpa. Hard to believe, but he leads the AHL with the most career wins with 359. Can you believe that? This just shows you how old he was when they finally called him up. He was good then. I can't recall why he played that full season in New York - at 30 - and then never got a chance for another 4 years. I realize Gump Worsley came in after that but none of the original 6 needed another goalie for all of that time? Hard to believe. But either way, we all know what he accomplished in the NHL.

Oldest goalie to play an NHL game, that's another thing about him. Never played with a mask from my recollection unless he had a facial injury he was clearing up. I remember seeing a picture of him with a mask once, one of those partial masks, and I assume it was just to nurse an injury.

So where do you rank him? He's outside of the top 10 because I just can't fit him in there. But it might be hard to keep him out of the top 20. I don't think he's any worse than that. Not many goalies of dynasties and to top it off he could have won the Conn Smythe in 1963 or 1964.

Can you argue he is the most important Leaf with those 4 Cups? I think you can at least with the first three. There is Horton, Mahovlich and Keon that also fit right in there as well not to mention to a lesser extent Armstrong. But Bower is definitely on the high end of that mix.

Just one 1st team all-star and shared a Vezina with Sawchuk later on in 1965 under the old Vezina format.

Thoughts?
 
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Very sad as a Leafs fan to hear about his death. 93 is a nice age to hit so he had quite the full life, but I always thought of Johnny as the Maple Leafs' grandpa. Hard to believe, but he leads the AHL with the most career wins with 359. Can you believe that? This just shows you how old he was when they finally called him up. He was good then. I can't recall why he played that full season in New York - at 30 - and then never got a chance for another 4 years. I realize Gump Worsley came in after that but none of the original 6 needed another goalie for all of that time? Hard to believe. But either way, we all know what he accomplished in the NHL.

After Gump Worsley won the NHL rookie of the year award in the 1952-53 season, he had the temerity to ask for a raise. I've read that the requested amount of the increase was $500. The Rangers punished him by not signing him, but still owning his rights, sent him to the minors in Vancouver for the 1953-54 season. That gave Bower his first chance in the NHL. Apparently Worsley and the Rangers came to terms in 1954 and Gump resumed his career there.

Strange that Bower never got a chance before that, and only established himself in the League years later after the Leafs' Ed Chadwick experiment proved unsatisfactory. But with six teams at the time, it was hard to crack that elite group. In the time between Bower's disappearance from the Rangers' lineup and his NHL return in Toronto, Montreal had Jacques Plante and Charlie Hodge, Boston had Jim Henry, then Terry Sawchuk, Detroit had Glenn Hall, then Sawchuk again, Chicago had Al Rollins (1954 MVP), then Hall, New York had Worsley, and Toronto had Harry Lumley until 1955 or 1956, I believe. Pretty stiff competition.

I won't attempt to rank him, but he's very deserving of all the accolades that he received, and always seemed like a real gentleman to me.
 
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Creative thoughts, great thread idea Phil as yes, he is I think for many a rather enigmatic player, goaltender. As in where would he rank on an All Time List (?). Nice job there as well mentioning his AHL career as that too an important factor in determining his place in the pantheons given that there were so few NHL jobs available (6) and that Johnny himself didnt really "arrive" until he was in his 30's, very reluctant to do so as he had a great thing going in Cleveland, good money, solid & stable, a young family to raise. Imlach as you pointed out in another thread essentially blackmailing him into reporting to the Leafs.

Not since Turk Brodas' retirement had the Leafs much in the way of stability in the crease despite some solid depth & talent, the club on the blue-line, up-front re-building, guys like Ed Chadwick & Don Simmons performing very well however for various reasons left Imlach wanting more. Impressed with Bower having encountered him on numerous occasions over several years in the minors, absolutely perfect fit, totally complimentary goalie for the system Punch intended to deploy. Johnny not only a total workhorse, but also very even tempered & easy going, worked well with vets & rookies alike, team player, and when it was all on the line a total money player. It wasnt for nought he was soon nicknamed the China Wall. Absolutely key, critical piece.

The closest modern day equivalency I think would be the dynamic that existed, was created in New Jersey with the Devils & Martin Brodeur, though Marty of course much more in the model of a Jacques Plante or Eddie Giacomin, a "Wanderer" who played the puck often well outside the crease. Bower on the other hand, much more stay-at-home as Imlach's system much more demanding on the Defencemen to keep back, back behind the Blue Line, Center, behind or on the densive zone face-off circles, the corners. The forwards back checking, covering their man, assignments. Shooting lanes open so Bower could see what was inbound. And in scrambles, Bower without a doubt, play in close one of the greatest. Extremely acrobatic. A real fighter. Aggressive. Like Brodeur & the Devils, no Marty no Cups, and with the Leafs, no Johnny, no Cups. He was the anchor though in a more passive-aggressive manner in the same mold as Broda had been.

During this period you had what many who were around for it referred to as the Big 6; Plante in Montreal (followed by Hodge & then primarily Worsley), Eddie Johnston in Boston, Glenn Hall in Chicago, Worsley followed by the then young & very dynamic Eddie Giacomin in New York, Sawchuk followed by Roger Crozier in Detroit who for 2 seasons played totally "lights out", absolutely sensational. Toronto, well, the Leafs had Johnny Bower & absolutely, considered THE BEST vs his immediate contemporaries of that era (app 58-67) though like Brodeur several generations later somewhat underrated & underappreciated due to the system the Devils & earlier the Leafs employed. With the exception of Montreal & to a lesser extent Detroit, Hall in Chicago, Worsley followed by Giacomin in NY, Johnston & then Cheevers in Boston, Sawchuk & Crozier in Detroit all called upon to really dig into their bags of tricks, that anything less than spectacular play & they lose. Only Montreal & Toronto totally solid defensively, man for man superior to the rest of the leagues rosters and with depth that trickled down to elite amateur, Junior B & A, Senior & Minor-pro. A fully integrated philosophy, approach to the game, the players growing up together from in some cases Atom, Pee Wee... and Winning at every level.

That Johnny Bower in Toronto... in Montreal, Plante, Hodge & Worsley, briefly Vachon & most certainly Dryden benefited from all of that, no question. No doubt about it. Thing is, had you put Glenn Hall in the Leafs net or Eddie Johnston in Montreals', they too would have shone just as brightly as did Plante, Worsley & Bower. So how then do you determine "who's #1, #2, #4" in terms of ranking them contemporaneously... beyond contemporaneously "All Time"? On any given night during that period, certainly during the Playoffs, one would watch Roger Croziers unbelievable act & go "wow... I have never seen such a string of mind blowing saves in a single game" only to catch another game a day or week later and its Glenn Hall's turn to absolutely amaze & stupefy, stun.... followed by Bower a day later.... Terry Sawchuk... Eddie Johnston's heroics on some nights backing up the hapless Bruins totally standing on his head but a forgotten Hero as the B's never did much damage, perennial doormats. Worsley going from Zero to Hero in a NY Minute. So who really was "the best"? The "greatest"?..... I dont know. I cant answer that question & I know a little bit about goaltending & goaltenders. When your dealing with the quality were talking about here, the best from earlier & later eras', to me their ALL #1, just varying degree's of success, Cup Wins etc, and those things a matter of luck & circumstance as to what organization you wind up with.

Non-answer perhaps? Not for me its not. Its one of the reasons I dont participate in ATD's. I just have a real problem with stating categorically that so & so is/was the Best Goalie All Time when absolutely luck plays so significant a role in how ones career unfolds. I dont mean "lucky saves". I mean where did this guy play amateur & Junior, where in Europe, Russia... who were his Coaches... what was his record... what teams did he play for on the way up, on the way out... how is his skating, glove hand, positioning etc etc etc etc etc..... break it all down. Take the guy apart piece x piece technically, clinically. And when I do that, I come up with several Greatest Ever Goalies, impossible to rank one higher than the other. Does not compute. So I'm not going to fight the numbers. I have "Classes" of Greatest Ever. "Class A" - "Class B" - then "Class C" of Goalies who's games were incomplete. Johnny Bower along with guys like Durnan, Broda, Plante, Hall, Sawchuk, Tretiak, Dryden, Cheevers & others I put in "Class A". I will not then rank 1-10 or whatever Class A. Not happenin. I dont consider it to be intellectually honest however I dont mind, no issue with those who do enjoy ranking & rating guys 1-10, 1-100, 1-1000... whatever turns your crank. I just dont think that way. Different. I know it. Not alone either. Room for everyone here so no probs. ;)
 
Over the years I've often heard Bower's name uttered in the same breath as Broda's as marginal top-10 all time candidates, which flatters Johnny in both respects.

I've never thought him underrated. A Leaf rarely is.
 
I'm a big admirer of Johnny Bower's but I think its ridiculous to even suggest he would be a Top Ten of All Time candidate. That's a gross over rating of his career in my opinion.

Any player on any Top Ten of All Time list would have to have been the very best at their position, or arguably the very best at their position for an extended period of time. I don't think even the most hopelessly biased Maple Leaf fan would try to pretend that was true of Johnny Bower.
 
I'm a big admirer of Johnny Bower's but I think its ridiculous to even suggest he would be a Top Ten of All Time candidate. That's a gross over rating of his career in my opinion.

Any player on any Top Ten of All Time list would have to have been the very best at their position, or arguably the very best at their position for an extended period of time. I don't think even the most hopelessly biased Maple Leaf fan would try to pretend that was true of Johnny Bower.

I'm pretty sure any reference to top-10 in this thread has been about his place among goaltenders. It would be ridiculous to read them any other way, really.
 
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I'm pretty sure any reference to top-10 in this thread has been about his place among goaltenders. It would be ridiculous to read them any other way, really.

Why are you telling me this? Isn't that painfully obvious? I mean, I just had a post about exactly that topic that you are responding to.
 
Very sad as a Leafs fan to hear about his death. 93 is a nice age to hit so he had quite the full life, but I always thought of Johnny as the Maple Leafs' grandpa. Hard to believe, but he leads the AHL with the most career wins with 359. Can you believe that? This just shows you how old he was when they finally called him up. He was good then. I can't recall why he played that full season in New York - at 30 - and then never got a chance for another 4 years. I realize Gump Worsley came in after that but none of the original 6 needed another goalie for all of that time? Hard to believe. But either way, we all know what he accomplished in the NHL.

Oldest goalie to play an NHL game, that's another thing about him. Never played with a mask from my recollection unless he had a facial injury he was clearing up. I remember seeing a picture of him with a mask once, one of those partial masks, and I assume it was just to nurse an injury.

So where do you rank him? He's outside of the top 10 because I just can't fit him in there. But it might be hard to keep him out of the top 20. I don't think he's any worse than that. Not many goalies of dynasties and to top it off he could have won the Conn Smythe in 1963 or 1964.

Can you argue he is the most important Leaf with those 4 Cups? I think you can at least with the first three. There is Horton, Mahovlich and Keon that also fit right in there as well not to mention to a lesser extent Armstrong. But Bower is definitely on the high end of that mix.

Just one 1st team all-star and shared a Vezina with Sawchuk later on in 1965 under the old Vezina format.

Thoughts?

I'm pretty sure any reference to top-10 in this thread has been about his place among goaltenders. It would be ridiculous to read them any other way, really.


Why are you telling me this? Isn't that painfully obvious? I mean, I just had a post about exactly that topic that you are responding to.

Do you even deduce, bro ?
 

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