So, I've been wondering about this for about seven years now on here . . .

[Hunter Gathers]

. . . but does Benoit Allaire just not stress / teach rebound control? A lot of times it seems that Lundqvist would prefer to angle the puck away rather than try and eat it up. I understand the strategy a bit, but I've said for years now on here that I wish our goalies would cover the puck more. This was really magnified in Torts's system where we had guys sprawling all over the ice unable to get Hank's rebounds.

Hoping in AV's system that we won't have as much of a problem with that since we aren't going to be dropping everyone blocking shots.

I was trying to think of past teams that Allaire was used as a goalie coach for. My mind is fuzzy on the Yotes and their goalies' rebound control when Allaire was there (and, frankly, I just didn't watch them much).

I know that Francois teaches a straight up blocking style that generally eschews rebound performance and I am guessing that Benoit employs a similar tactic (the "Allaire style" is obviously a system that both teach). Jean-Sebastian Giguere had some rebound control issues but was able to eat up the puck better than Hank. Roberto Luongo was taught to be a "blocking" goalie as well and has never had good rebound control.

You look at the names of who either Benoit or Francois have taught (Lundqvist, Giguere, Luongo, Roy) and it's a who's who of greatness. So I obviously can't criticize too much. I just wish that Benoit would work with Hank more on his rebound control. His blocking is elite. Top notch. His rebound control is far below average and has been one of his few major holes for years, now.

Click to read more...

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Also, it's interesting to note that there is a big love-it or hate-it aspect with the Allaire system when you look at goaltending forums and such. Not much in between.

 

[Samuel Culper III]

I semi-agree. I have noticed his penchant for using his pads to angle the puck away on very smotherable pucks and the fact a lot of his goals against (and our most frustrating moments) are the result of net front scrambles on a rebound. What I haven't been able to really give enough thought to is whether or not I'm really seeing less of those kinds of goals when I watch other teams' games. Now, I'm not denying that Hank clearly doesn't eat as many pucks and just hold on to them as a lot of other goalies do. One thing I always thought, with regards to that, is that he has no confidence in our ability to win defensive zone draws. On the other hand, I've also noticed that the way he angles everything off to the corners puts our defense in a position where they clearly struggle, which is playing the puck from our corners out of the zone. I just don't know if swallowing up shots and holding them is something I can imagine Hank incorporating at this point.

 

[PlamsUnlimited]

You need to control rebounds. Not send them back in. Eat them up. Would like to see that happe more

 

[abev]

Why would you wonder something for seven years before asking? I would think you would want to get that resolved sooner.

 

[chosen]

I don't worry about my goaltender when he has been the best in the world over a pretty fair span of time.

 

[Ola]

Also, it's interesting to note that there is a big love-it or hate-it aspect with the Allaire system when you look at goaltending forums and such. Not much in between.

Yeah, ther are a lot of old school guys out there who don't quite get "it". Kelly Hrudy was on TSN for I don't know how long, believing it was still 1989 lol...

Look, Alliare is "right", then you can argue how they threat side-issues.

But the main point is a choice between the following two options:

1. Play to stop the puck.

2. Play to never sell yourself.

Hrudy, and the old-school, played to stop the puck. Went out of the net to cover angles etc. Then a shot missed the net, bounced against the boards and back infront of the net again and ended up on the stick of a forward who scored a goal. Nobody ever blamed the goalie.

Hank, and the new school, trusts their ability to stop the first shot, and always choose to try to stop the puck in a way in which they -- never -- will sell themselves. Ie, Malkin gets the puck on the point on the PP and bombs away. Hrudy would have moved out of the crease, or atleast played the top of the crease, to cut of angles, Hank stays as deep in the net that is required so that he at any time can protect both posts. If Malkin beats him with the shot, people will complain on him staying deep in the net. If Malkin's shot hits traffic and after a bounce ends up on the stick of someone on the far post, Hank almost doesn't have to recover, he is already there basically. The old-school don't quite notice that and thinks its an easy save because he already was in position.

This also comes into effect with rebound controll. Many goals in hockey is scored after a shot is taken, the goalie dives out to controll the rebound, but a forward manage to scoop the puck from infront of him and put the puck in a empty net.

The bottom line is this, and I am sure its the right one, if you always look at each and every situation in which a goal is scored, with the approch of "hey how should this have been stopped", the bottom line will be a goalie who can be the best in the world and a goalie who in some situations acts in ways which say a Kelly Hrudy will have a hard time to figure out to be honest.

 

[Tawnos]

It's a good question, although Hanks rebound control was bad last night, even for him. As chosen said above, though, what Lundqvist does has worked, so I'm not gonna worry overmuch about it.

 

[Gardner McKay]

. . . but does Benoit Allaire just not stress / teach rebound control? A lot of times it seems that Lundqvist would prefer to angle the puck away rather than try and eat it up. I understand the strategy a bit, but I've said for years now on here that I wish our goalies would cover the puck more. This was really magnified in Torts's system where we had guys sprawling all over the ice unable to get Hank's rebounds.

Hoping in AV's system that we won't have as much of a problem with that since we aren't going to be dropping everyone blocking shots.

I was trying to think of past teams that Allaire was used as a goalie coach for. My mind is fuzzy on the Yotes and their goalies' rebound control when Allaire was there (and, frankly, I just didn't watch them much).

I know that Francois teaches a straight up blocking style that generally eschews rebound performance and I am guessing that Benoit employs a similar tactic (the "Allaire style" is obviously a system that both teach). Jean-Sebastian Giguere had some rebound control issues but was able to eat up the puck better than Hank. Roberto Luongo was taught to be a "blocking" goalie as well and has never had good rebound control.

You look at the names of who either Benoit or Francois have taught (Lundqvist, Giguere, Luongo, Roy) and it's a who's who of greatness. So I obviously can't criticize too much. I just wish that Benoit would work with Hank more on his rebound control. His blocking is elite. Top notch. His rebound control is far below average and has been one of his few major holes for years, now.

I wish they would work with Henrik on handling the puck. I can think of numerous occasions in Henriks career where his mis handle cost the rangers a goal. Granted, he may never be a great puck handler but he could have at least worked on it to the point where he is average and not at this level of terrible.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

If Lundqvist controlled rebounds, maybe he'd be better than his current standing of best goaltender in the world over the last 7 years.

 

[Trxjw]

I think it's just the way Hank plays. He's never, ever looked comfortable absorbing shots. Hell, for the first 3 or 4 years here his glove was so stiff that he used it almost exclusively as another blocker and rarely ever caught pucks with it. I'm not really sure it's an Allaire thing. If anything, I think BA has taught him to try and hang onto the puck a bit more.

 

[Bluenote13]

If Lundqvist controlled rebounds, maybe he'd be better than his current standing of best goaltender in the world over the last 7 years.

Imagine how some of the kids who never saw Richter handle the puck would react if they were around back then? He was one of the worst in the league at handling the puck during his Pro career.

Stickhandling is way down my list of necessary goaltending skills. Brodeur was a special goalie, he's the best i've seen, no one should be held to that standard. Hextall was the first of the new wave puckhandlers, and he got caught out of position many times handling the puck, he gave up the puck behind the net that led to a goal minutes into his first game vs the Rangers after they were talking up how well he plays the puck.

Also not being mentioned - rebounds are a team problem, it's not just about the tender, it' also about the players in front of him.

 

[Clown Fiesta]

The real question is why isn't he challenging more? He's still playing pretty deep which is abnormal, but Lundqvist seems to be a bit of a slow starter.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

If Lundqvist controlled rebounds, maybe he'd be better than his current standing of best goaltender in the world over the last 7 years.

I was unaware that the best don't have flaws that can be fixed.

Quite shocking, actually.

Frankly, the best are always working on their flaws and never rest on past performance. If they aren't, they are bound to be passed up. The sad part about your comment is that you don't seem to understand that I am not criticizing Lundqvist here. I am merely asking about the "Allaire System," what it teaches, and what is stressed. It's obvious that Lundqvist has benefitted quite a bit from Benoit, but I still have some questions on what is actually being taught.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Also not being mentioned - rebounds are a team problem, it's not just about the tender, it' also about the players in front of him.

I don't think that is true at all. Clearing rebounds is a team issue. Controlling rebounds is a goaltender issue. Furthermore, Hank has had rebound issues under a number of different systems, now.

Again, this is something I've read about in a number of places w/r/t the "Allaire System." From what I have read about their philosophy, they simply don't stress rebound control. I posited this question to see if someone had any more of an in depth view on their system. A lot of complaints about Luongo come from what Francois Allaire taught him when he was young (essentially eschewing rebound control and completely focusing on blocking).

 

[Whiplash27]

Imagine how some of the kids who never saw Richter handle the puck would react if they were around back then? He was one of the worst in the league at handling the puck during his Pro career.

Richter was a disaster with the puck.

 

[Fanned On It]

The real question is why isn't he challenging more? He's still playing pretty deep which is abnormal, but Lundqvist seems to be a bit of a slow starter.

Read Ola's post. Beautifully put together and really explains Hank's style and why he plays deep in the net... as if it wasn't obvious already, though.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Read Ola's post. Beautifully put together and really explains Hank's style and why he plays deep in the net... as if it wasn't obvious already, though.

It's part of Allaire's method. Hank didn't play this deep in Sweden.

 

[Blue Blooded]

Yeah, ther are a lot of old school guys out there who don't quite get "it". Kelly Hrudy was on TSN for I don't know how long, believing it was still 1989 lol...

Look, Alliare is "right", then you can argue how they threat side-issues.

But the main point is a choice between the following two options:

1. Play to stop the puck.

2. Play to never sell yourself.

Hrudy, and the old-school, played to stop the puck. Went out of the net to cover angles etc. Then a shot missed the net, bounced against the boards and back infront of the net again and ended up on the stick of a forward who scored a goal. Nobody ever blamed the goalie.

Hank, and the new school, trusts their ability to stop the first shot, and always choose to try to stop the puck in a way in which they -- never -- will sell themselves. Ie, Malkin gets the puck on the point on the PP and bombs away. Hrudy would have moved out of the crease, or atleast played the top of the crease, to cut of angles, Hank stays as deep in the net that is required so that he at any time can protect both posts. If Malkin beats him with the shot, people will complain on him staying deep in the net. If Malkin's shot hits traffic and after a bounce ends up on the stick of someone on the far post, Hank almost doesn't have to recover, he is already there basically. The old-school don't quite notice that and thinks its an easy save because he already was in position.

This also comes into effect with rebound controll. Many goals in hockey is scored after a shot is taken, the goalie dives out to controll the rebound, but a forward manage to scoop the puck from infront of him and put the puck in a empty net.

The bottom line is this, and I am sure its the right one, if you always look at each and every situation in which a goal is scored, with the approch of "hey how should this have been stopped", the bottom line will be a goalie who can be the best in the world and a goalie who in some situations acts in ways which say a Kelly Hrudy will have a hard time to figure out to be honest.

Sublime post.

The avoid blame vs. increase overall effectiveness argument is important because human perception biases makes us prefer the former at all times, while the latter is the vastly better option. You remember the few stand-out examples but are blind to the whole body of work.

 

[DelZottoHitTheNetJK]

Firstly Francois Allaire and Benoit teach the same principles but are very different in execution. Francois is more hardcore with the straight up blocking style. Think Giguere; getting your mass in front of the puck, narrow butterfly, etc.

Lundqvist is a wide butterfly goalie. Which means he covers more net down low but he will naturally kick out more rebounds. Personally I'd prefer him stopping the initial shot and worrying about the rebound after. His rebound control is excellent in terms of putting pucks into the corner, but he still plays an Allaire blocking style (albeit much more athletic and less "let the puck hit me") so it's more difficult to hold onto pucks.


Hank is the least of our problems