Smith, 5pts, -5 in last 38 games

[Shadywing19]

Kindl has played 6 fewer games than Smith and has two more points and a slightly better plus/minus. Lashoff and Ouellet have the second and third best plus/minus of the defenseman. Lashoff actually has a better points/60 overall than Smith. Ouellet's is similar. Kindl's points/60 blows Smith's away.

I just don't buy the "it's his partner" argument.

Kindle gets regular pp time. Lash is lash. I don't buy into it completely. He makes his mistakes. But I think we can all agree after the Quincey/smith experiment that who u play with has a large part in how you play. We don't have to agree. But I'm of the opinion of is smith was playing a lot with the top 2 lines and seeing regular pp duty. We wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

[SoupGuru]

Kindle gets regular pp time. Lash is lash. I don't buy into it completely. He makes his mistakes. But I think we can all agree after the Quincey/smith experiment that who u play with has a large part in how you play. We don't have to agree. But I'm of the opinion of is smith was playing a lot with the top 2 lines and seeing regular pp duty. We wouldn't be having this discussion.

The only defenseman with a worse points/60 at even strength than Smith is Kindl. Literally every other defenseman that has played for the Wings this year is more productive at even strength.

How is it that Lashoff and Ouellet can contribute regardless of the pairings or matchups while Smith has to be coddled to be productive?

 

[Shadywing19]

The only defenseman with a worse points/60 at even strength than Smith is Kindl. Literally every other defenseman that has played for the Wings this year is more productive at even strength.

How is it that Lashoff and Ouellet can contribute regardless of the pairings or matchups while Smith has to be coddled to be productive?

Well, in lashoffs case. I'm goin with luck. And I confidently stand by that. I've seen his points. And I've seen a lot of the chances that haven't hashed out for smith. U don't need to include quelette in this discussion. He's had a small sample size but he may very well be better or at least more confident than smith. Sorry u don't buy the partners argument. But I have a hard time buying the smith isn't panning out argument. He'll pan out. And he'll be good. May not be with the wings. But he'll be a very solid offensive defensman someday, somewhere in the nhl.

 

[Yzerman1919*]

Kindl has played 6 fewer games than Smith and has two more points and a slightly better plus/minus. Lashoff and Ouellet have the second and third best plus/minus of the defenseman. Lashoff actually has a better points/60 overall than Smith. Ouellet's is similar. Kindl's points/60 blows Smith's away.

I just don't buy the "it's his partner" argument.

I do. Ever play defense in a real hockey game with someone you aren't comfortable with? Or center with two wingers who aren't too good?

It ruins what you're supposed to do. You don't feel comfortable, try to do too much on your own, feel way more rushed. That's Smith. With Kronwall I just didn't see that.

He's physical and a good skater. We need that.

 

[detredWINgs]

Why is there a thread about Smith and yet no thread about Ericsson?

 

[silkyjohnson50]

Why is there a thread about Smith and yet no thread about Ericsson?

Was there not just a thread about Ericsson?

Let's face it, Smith has been a disappointment and is not progressing the way we would have hoped.

 

[Actual Thought*]

I have been critical of Smith's "smarts" at time but if you think about it Smith has only played 153 NHL games. Last year was his first full NHL season. He is essentially a sophomore. There is a huge difference between the NHL and collegiate/AHL and this is especially true for defencemen. We may not really know what Smith is for another 2 years. Lidstrom though very good didn't peak in his second year. I think Smith still has very high potential. This is what you get when you have young D playing important roles. The game still hasn't slowed down for him yet but it still can.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

Lidstrom was a 60 pt, Calder runner up as a rookie. Just because it makes your argument cheerful and sunny doesn't make it worth a damn.

 

[Zetterbeard]

I think a lot of you guys are giving up too quickly on Smith. He's still growing as a player, and I see improvements to his game every season. I am still confident that he will be a good top 4 defenseman for the Wings.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Babcock likes his d-men safe. Smith's natural game is anything but safe. So Babs is trying to mold him into a safe d-men, but he still makes boneheaded mistakes

Really, what is his role on this team? He gets no pp time, barely any pk time and isn't allowed to jump up in the play. So what is he doing here exactly?

Babcock can be stubborn, however he's always had offensive d-men who were able to put up a boatload of points:

Mathieu Schneider: career high 59 points in Detroit.
Brian Rafalski: career high 59 points in Detroit.
Chris Chelios: 43-44 years old and at the end of his career. Not relevant for this discussion.
Nick Lidstrom: career high 80 points under Babcock.

Smith simply hasn't developed to the point where he is going to be a solid scorer in the NHL. I will never understand why he doesn't get power play time but I've come to the opinion that I think it would be best to trade him. It will give him a chance to get his career back on track and it would hopefully help the Wings acquire a legit, puck moving offensive d-man, which they have needed for several years now.

 

[Frk It]

Why is there a thread about Smith and yet no thread about Ericsson?

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1797471

 

[Pavels Dog]

Lidstrom was a 60 pt, Calder runner up as a rookie. Just because it makes your argument cheerful and sunny doesn't make it worth a damn.

What are we expecting out of Smith? Or any of our d-men for that matter?

Reading this board, an outsider's impression would be that Ericsson, Kindl, Smith and Lashoff are among the worst d-men in the league. And that Quincey generally is bad as well, Dekeyser struggling and Kronwall not really playing well either.

That is despite our being 6th in GA/G and with none of our D-men being worse than a -3 on the season.


Smith has made tremendous progress on the defensive side of the puck. Anyone who can't see that is not remembering what he used to play like, or is being overly critical. Offensively, he is disappointing, yes, but give it some time. He shows potential still, I don't think he's a hopeless case.

 

[Shadywing19]

Just out of curiousity, what would satisfy everyone's expectations of smith being on the bottom pair, predominantly being on the ice with our 3rd and 4th lines. Not getting any PP time. Serious question. How many points would satisfy some of you!? Some expectations here I feel are a bit outlandish givin the situation he is being put in. I could be wrong but I don't think many bottom pairing penalty kill guys put up more points than he has so far....

 

[crashman]

I've been saying it since Lidstrom left...our Defense sucks.

Kronwall and DeKeyser are very good players, but the rest of our D-men are all interchangeable and average. We need someone that can come in and play a defined role like Rafalski or even Schneider did.

For all the **** Quincey has taken by fans over the years, he's one of our better, more consistent defenseman but people still want to bash him and cling on to Smith's "potential".

I think the roadtrip will tell us a lot about this team going forward, and it might even press Holland's hand into making a trade to get better puck movement from our backend.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Just out of curiousity, what would satisfy everyone's expectations of smith being on the bottom pair, predominantly being on the ice with our 3rd and 4th lines. Not getting any PP time. Serious question. How many points would satisfy some of you!? Some expectations here I feel are a bit outlandish givin the situation he is being put in. I could be wrong but I don't think many bottom pairing penalty kill guys put up more points than he has so far....

Your hope is that he would be Jiri Hudler, who scored a bunch despite never getting more than 4th line minutes during his rookie year. He also got power play time which Smith has not received.

The case for Smith fans is that he's all offense and has the same limitations as Hudler - well not when it comes to skating. That's a tough spot to be in as a defenseman. The offense hasn't materialized, the Wings never carry play with him on the ice, and his hiccups typically result in grade A scoring chances for the opposition.

Hudler is doing quite well for himself in Calgary, I suspect if Smith is to have any success in the NHL it will have to be with another organization. At least with Hudler you could clearly see the offensive talent despite his obvious shortcomings. With Smith there's really not much you can point to and say he can utilize it to build a career.

 

[Actual Thought*]

Your hope is that he would be Jiri Hudler, who scored a bunch despite never getting more than 4th line minutes during his rookie year. He also got power play time which Smith has not received.

The case for Smith fans is that he's all offense and has the same limitations as Hudler - well not when it comes to skating. That's a tough spot to be in as a defenseman. The offense hasn't materialized, the Wings never carry play with him on the ice, and his hiccups typically result in grade A scoring chances for the opposition.

Hudler is doing quite well for himself in Calgary, I suspect if Smith is to have any success in the NHL it will have to be with another organization. At least with Hudler you could clearly see the offensive talent despite his obvious shortcomings. With Smith there's really not much you can point to and say he can utilize it to build a career.

Hudler is a forward. How is he comparable to Smith?

 

[detredWINgs]

Was there not just a thread about Ericsson?

Let's face it, Smith has been a disappointment and is not progressing the way we would have hoped.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1797471

So we have threads dedicated to bashing 4/7 of our regular defense at this point? And one of the guys without a thread yet was Enemy #1 last year.

That should tell people all they need to know. A lot of people are overlooking the fact that half of our defenseman would probably look ten times better if they weren't (1) playing above their capabilities and (2) playing with another defenseman who could hide some of their mistakes.

As for Smith himself, the big issue is that people are still looking at him as an offensive defenseman. The fact that he doesn't even play on the PP tells you all need to know about what kind of defenseman Babcock considers Smith to be. The more interesting point is that Babcock has been very vague as to what kind of role Smith plays on this team and most of us, if pressed, wouldn't have an answer. He's not the physical presence. He's not a PPQB. He's not an even strength minute muncher. He's not a PK specialist. He's not a stay-at-home type. So what is he? If he has such as low of a hockey IQ that many on here claim he does, then blame the coach. If a guy has low hockey IQ but solid tools, then you need to give him a defined, structured role.

As for this thread, these stats have been cherry-picked to reinforce an ongoing tirade about Smith. He has 1 point and is just -2 in his past 5 games, so we could make the case that he is improving if we wanted to engage in the cherry-picking game; However, the overwhelming opinion should probably be this: Smith has improved by leaps and bounds since last year in terms of even strength play, but his offense is as dry as ever. That part of his game may never come around under Babcock, if at all.

 

[newfy]

Am I the only one who thought he was brilliant with Kronwall and the instant chemistry and more freedom made him look like a solid player....

Yep. Smith played his best hockey on a top pair. He was the wings best dman in the playoffs, Ericcson has been brutal as well, time to try Smith and Kronwall together again.

PP time won't fix him. And his brainfarts will cost too many breakaways and likely tons of shorthanded goals against. He can't be trusted.

Why do people actually believe this? Tatar has seen time on the point, Sammy, Williams and Franzen right now. How many breakaways do they give up? Theyre forwards who arent used to playing the point and much riskier than SMith yet it doesnt happen. Its a narrative made up by people who dont like Smith

 

[detredWINgs]

I've been saying it since Lidstrom left...our Defense sucks.

Kronwall and DeKeyser are very good players, but the rest of our D-men are all interchangeable and average. We need someone that can come in and play a defined role like Rafalski or even Schneider did.

For all the **** Quincey has taken by fans over the years, he's one of our better, more consistent defenseman but people still want to bash him and cling on to Smith's "potential".

I think the roadtrip will tell us a lot about this team going forward, and it might even press Holland's hand into making a trade to get better puck movement from our backend.

Quincey was trash last year and has been great this year. Almost everyone on this board has said as much.

And yet you make this comment in a thread dedicated to bashing Smith when no such thread for Quincey exists.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Your hope is that he would be Jiri Hudler, who scored a bunch despite never getting more than 4th line minutes during his rookie year. He also got power play time which Smith has not received.

The case for Smith fans is that he's all offense and has the same limitations as Hudler - well not when it comes to skating. That's a tough spot to be in as a defenseman. The offense hasn't materialized, the Wings never carry play with him on the ice, and his hiccups typically result in grade A scoring chances for the opposition.

Hudler is doing quite well for himself in Calgary, I suspect if Smith is to have any success in the NHL it will have to be with another organization. At least with Hudler you could clearly see the offensive talent despite his obvious shortcomings. With Smith there's really not much you can point to and say he can utilize it to build a career.

the stat behind the link doesn't measure how well player carries the play. it measures how tough competition they face.

 

[The Zermanator]

Kindl has played 6 fewer games than Smith and has two more points and a slightly better plus/minus. Lashoff and Ouellet have the second and third best plus/minus of the defenseman. Lashoff actually has a better points/60 overall than Smith. Ouellet's is similar. Kindl's points/60 blows Smith's away.

I just don't buy the "it's his partner" argument.

Lashoff and Kindl both play ridiculously sheltered minutes. But Smith definitely needs to do better.

 

[detredWINgs]

Your hope is that he would be Jiri Hudler, who scored a bunch despite never getting more than 4th line minutes during his rookie year. He also got power play time which Smith has not received.

The case for Smith fans is that he's all offense and has the same limitations as Hudler - well not when it comes to skating. That's a tough spot to be in as a defenseman. The offense hasn't materialized, the Wings never carry play with him on the ice, and his hiccups typically result in grade A scoring chances for the opposition.

Hudler is doing quite well for himself in Calgary, I suspect if Smith is to have any success in the NHL it will have to be with another organization. At least with Hudler you could clearly see the offensive talent despite his obvious shortcomings. With Smith there's really not much you can point to and say he can utilize it to build a career.

You're either massively underrating Hudler or seriously overrating Smith if that is your expectation. Hudler did something very few people can do in this league - put up points from the 4th line. And then he went on to do something very few people can do with the physical limitations Hudler has - put up 50+ points three (going on 4) times. That is a real rough analogy and a bizarre expectation. That's like expecting Smith to put up 30+ points with this amount and type of ice time he gets.

If you want to focus on points, then you have to recognize that only 45-50 defenseman each year manage 20 even strength points. Smith was 68th in ESP last year with 18 points. So if you aren't getting powerplay time, then a great year offensively would be 20-25 points. Thats nearly what Smith was on pace to do last year with 18 ESP in 71 games.

Unfortunately, while Smith has gotten better defensively this year, he's on pace for just ~15 points. Thats not good enough in any respect. And yet 2/7 of his points this year came in his 10 minutes of total powerplay time he's seen. There's an argument to be made that we probably aren't having this conversation if Smith is allowed to go through the growing pains on the powerplay that Dekeyser was allowed. Dekeyser saw 102 minutes of PPTOI last year to Smith's 12. He's seen 65 minutes this year to Smith's 10. Last year, Dekeyser put up 1 point every 25 minutes of PPTOI he saw (yikes). Smith put up 1 point in the 12 minutes he saw. This year, Dekeyser has put up 1 point for every 13 minutes he sees. Smith has put up 1 point for every 5 minutes he's seen. People would be a lot more forgiving about what Smith does at even strength if he was producing on the powerplay.

 

[8snake]

So the myth of Smith having some kind of untapped, dynamic skill-set continues on HF. Despite all the evidence to the contrary. It's Babcock's fault, it's his partner's fault...it's always somebody else's fault that Smith isn't even a mediocre passer, can't get shots through or shoot accurately and makes low percentage plays with the puck. He's still an offensive dynamo just needing the right circumstances to break out. When do we call a spade a spade?

 

[InjuredChoker]

So the myth of Smith having some kind of untapped, dynamic skill-set continues on HF. Despite all the evidence to the contrary. It's Babcock's fault, it's his partner's fault...it's always somebody else's fault that Smith isn't even a mediocre passer, can't get shots through or shoot accurately and makes low percentage plays with the puck. He's still an offensive dynamo just needing the right circumstances to break out. When do we call a spade a spade?

he doesn't have untapped potential, smith is definitely at fault but he could do better in right circumstances. they just won't likely be with red wings. even if babcock leaves.

 

[Dotter]

Zero hockey IQ? Exaggerate much? Ericsson has been much worse this year. I would have thought he would have produced more offensively this year. I still have some confidence he will. But it's waning.

^ That's your first mistake. Ericsson isn't ever going to be an offensive dman. It's just not who he is. If you expect that, then of course you're going to be continuously disappointed.