Blue Jays Discussion: Should've gotten the live chicken (Next TV Game: Wed 26th vs NYY) ‎

[TootooTrain]

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[Stats01]

Yeah I agree, they know they're in deep **** right now. They can't even pretend that they're a contender at the moment. Maybe they learned to shut their mouths instead of pumping this whole team up like it was the best team ever. The way this team was hyped compared to the results...I'm glad they're not saying much. A little humility is nice.

 

[canucksfan]

Not surprised they didn't sign and not disappointed. I don't like Santana in the AL East. I think he will do great wit the Braves.

I am disappointed that the only off season acquisition was Navarro. Still not sold with Goins at 2nd. He hasn't had a great ST with the bat. They are relying on Dickey to pitch like he did in the 2nd half and stay healthy, Morrow to stay healthy and pitch good consistently and Hutch to have a breakout year. All those three things can happen but I don't think they will.

They still can trade for a starter but AA will have to probably overpay because teams know they need one.

 

[Longshot]

On a live chat Richard Griffin just said AA's mentioning of Romero on the radio this morning "is a bunch of crap."

 

[canucksfan]

On a live chat Richard Griffin just said AA's mentioning of Romero on the radio this morning "is a bunch of crap."

It is. Ricky hasn't looked good since 2011.

 

[Drew311]

Looks like the HF Positivity Police is losing this battle.

 

[Transplanted Caper]

Yeah, the Romero tire pumping this morning was pretty hilarious. I cringed as soon as AA brought his name up. Definitely not what a rabid audience was likely hoping to hear.

 

[Longshot]

It is. Ricky hasn't looked good since 2011.

Actually, part way through 2012 Romero was 8-1, although he wasn't pitching particularly well. I was actually at the game when his season/career started to fall apart.

Afternoon game vs. the Rangers. Romero was putting up zeros and the Jays scored eight or nine runs in an inning to take a 10 or 11 to zip lead.

Romero came out for the top of the next inning and walked the bases loaded, gave up a few runs and never looked the same the rest of the season.

 

[TootooTrain]

So I take it people are just ignoring the fact that Santana didn't want to come to the AL at all costs, and concentrating on a 5 second Romero quote like he'll be in the rotation on opening day.

 

[Longshot]

Santana didn't want to come to the AL at all costs,

Really?

Then why were the Jays so sure they had him signed three days ago?

If he didn't want to come to the AL at all costs, why was he on the verge of signing with Toronto or Baltimore? (And likely would have if Atlanta had not suffered a major injury)

 

[p.l.f.]

I hope Santana sucks with Atlanta

 

[Nasty Nazem]

So I take it people are just ignoring the fact that Santana didn't want to come to the AL at all costs, and concentrating on a 5 second Romero quote like he'll be in the rotation on opening day.

Uhm, Braves wasn't even an option until like Monday when their starters got hurt. Santana choice was between AL teams so its not like he was just waiting out until some NL team had a starter get injured and hoped they would sign him.

 

[TootooTrain]

Really?

Then why were the Jays so sure they had him signed three days ago?

If he didn't want to come to the AL at all costs, why was he on the verge of signing with Toronto or Baltimore? (And likely would have if Atlanta had not suffered a major injury)

Last case scenario I assume. Which is why as soon as another team got involved it was a losing battle.

 

[Longshot]

Last case scenario I assume. Which is why as soon as another team got involved it was a losing battle.

Okay, so why didn't he sign with the Twins who offered a three year deal long before Atlanta had a need and are most definitely not in the AL East?

On the weekend he had three choices: Toronto, Baltimore and Minnesota. If avoiding the AL East at all costs was his goal, then he should have signed with Minnesota right?

 

[TootooTrain]

Okay, so why didn't he sign with the Twins who offered a three year deal long before Atlanta had a need and are most definitely not in the AL East?

On the weekend he had three choices: Toronto, Baltimore and Minnesota. If avoiding the AL East at all costs was his goal, then he should have signed with Minnesota right?

Reported choices. Could have been a few feeler calls made over that time. He made it clear he wanted a 1yr deal.

 

[topched]

Okay, so why didn't he sign with the Twins who offered a three year deal long before Atlanta had a need and are most definitely not in the AL East?

On the weekend he had three choices: Toronto, Baltimore and Minnesota. If avoiding the AL East at all costs was his goal, then he should have signed with Minnesota right?

You're right to be frustrated, I am too... But you're wrong on this one.

AA was told they "couldn't compete with the NL" by Jay Alou

Toronto and Baltimore offered him the same money as the Braves.

Minnesota offered him 30-35/3 years which is brutal value if you're Ervin, considering Santana stands to make nearly half of that this yr alone

The way I see it - Jays met Santana's price and term, once it leaked he was close a few more teams jumped in, gave him something to think about. 2 days later Atlanta lost 2 pitchers and then showed interest. The second they met Santana's asking price he signed.

You can be all over AA for not getting a pitcher, but the reasons for that and the mistakes made happened well before this weekend

 

[Longshot]

Reported choices. Could have been a few feeler calls made over that time. He made it clear he wanted a 1yr deal.

I think we're both arguing the same point.

In the Santana situation the Jays didn't do anything wrong.

They made an offer. They thought they got the player. The player backed off and decided to wait, another team swooped in a couple of days later and got him. From everything I've heard reported it wasn't a money or a term issue.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think the anger being expressed by many people here today isn't specifically because they think Santana was a screw up by AA, but rather they are overall comments about the lack of action this off season after management promised to spend more and improve the rotation.

Santana just happens to be the final domino of the off season to fall.

 

[Bravid Nonahan]

As a fan, I am disappointed in in what AA has delivered for the offseason. Although the team should be better just based on less time due to injuries, I still don't think they are a contender. I think 81-81 is a decent projection.

 

[Eyedea]

Okay, so why didn't he sign with the Twins who offered a three year deal long before Atlanta had a need and are most definitely not in the AL East?

On the weekend he had three choices: Toronto, Baltimore and Minnesota. If avoiding the AL East at all costs was his goal, then he should have signed with Minnesota right?

Judging by the reported offers, it went something like this:

#1 (Winner): Atlanta Braves offer a 14.1m (essentially qualifying offer) for one year.
#2: Jays offer 14m for one year.
#3: Orioles offer 13m + incentives for one year.
#4: Twins offer 33m over 3 years (he could comparatively earn roughly 29 million these next two seasons if he accepts a 2015 qualifying offer next offseason).

While the Jays were roughly in the same ballpark with the Braves, Jay Alou expressed (or rather implied, I assume) that Ervin Santana would rather pitch in the NL and build his value up. AA thought it would have been a done deal, but Santana stalled the negotiations and sought other offers before accepting this. It wasn't exactly the Jays nickel-and-diming Santana (like others mentioned), it was just Santana trying to do what's best for him and his career.

 

[Longshot]

You're right to be frustrated, I am too... But you're wrong on this one.

AA was told they "couldn't compete with the NL" by Jay Alou

Toronto and Baltimore offered him the same money as the Braves.

Minnesota offered him 30-35/3 years which is brutal value if you're Ervin, considering Santana stands to make nearly half of that this yr alone

The way I see it - Jays met Santana's price and term, once it leaked he was close a few more teams jumped in, gave him something to think about. 2 days later Atlanta lost 2 pitchers and then showed interest. The second they met Santana's asking price he signed.

You can be all over AA for not getting a pitcher, but the reasons for that and the mistakes made happened well before this weekend

I'm not sure what I'm wrong about.

The argument the other poster was making was that the Jays didn't get Santana because he was avoiding the AL East "at all costs."

This flies directly in the face of the evidence that he was closed to signing with either Toronto or Baltimore - while ignoring a non-AL East team that had made a significant offer.

I think we agree on everything else. I think Santana would have signed with an AL East team, but he waited and an offer came along he liked better. I'm not angry with AA about Santana. He took a shot. The player went elsewhere. That's what happens in free agency.

I just don't buy the narrative that some are now spinning that: "The Jays never had a chance because Santana wouldn't go to an AL East team."

 

[Drew311]

I'm not sure what I'm wrong about.

The argument the other poster was making was that the Jays didn't get Santana because he was avoiding the AL East "at all costs."

This flies directly in the face of the evidence that he was closed to signing with either Toronto or Baltimore - while ignoring a non-AL East team that had made a significant offer.

I think we agree on everything else. I think Santana would have signed with an AL East team, but he waited and an offer came along he liked better. I'm not angry with AA about Santana. He took a shot. The player went elsewhere. That's what happens in free agency.

I just don't buy the narrative that some are now spinning that: "The Jays never had a chance because Santana wouldn't go to an AL East team."

It wasn't specifically the AL East, it was the AL in general, according to Anthopolous.

 

[Longshot]

Judging by the reported offers, it went something like this:

#1 (Winner): Atlanta Braves offer a 14.1m (essentially qualifying offer) for one year.
#2: Jays offer 14m for one year.
#3: Orioles offer 13m + incentives for one year.
#4: Twins offer 33m over 3 years (he could comparatively earn roughly 29 million these next two seasons if he accepts a 2015 qualifying offer next offseason).

While the Jays were roughly in the same ballpark with the Braves, Jay Alou expressed (or rather implied, I assume) that Ervin Santana would rather pitch in the NL and build his value up. AA thought it would have been a done deal, but Santana stalled the negotiations and sought other offers before accepting this. It wasn't exactly the Jays nickel-and-diming Santana (like others mentioned), it was just Santana trying to do what's best for him and his career.

I can see Santana's point on all of this, but think about it this way: what would happen to his value next winter if he came to Toronto or Baltimore and had a huge season in the AL East?

But for him it was all about mitigating risk. The Braves option was probably the least risky for him - if his ultimate goal is a big long-term deal next winter.

 

[Longshot]

Richard Griffin in his live chat on AA's off season. It's kind of stinging.

"At the end of last season he saw that he needed to make changes. Then as the winter went on and he spoke to other GMs and player agents and as his guys played well in the Arizona Fall League and he studied stats and computer readouts, he most dangerously started to convince himself that maybe we don't need to make any changes. That's easy to do, but he should have avoided the temptation to believe everything is good. He has bought into his own spin."

Earlier in the chat Griffin also said this spring he has not been impressed with the defense from Goins. I found that interesting. He was advocating trading to get Franklin.

 

[Stats01]

On a live chat Richard Griffin just said AA's mentioning of Romero on the radio this morning "is a bunch of crap."

He's absolutely right. I'm glad there is some back-fire on his ass.

 

[dredeye]

Looks like the HF Positivity Police is losing this battle.

so not being all doom and gloom because we didn't sign Santana makes certain people the positivity police? Would it have been nice? For sure. Is it the end of the world? Absolutely not. He'll do much better personally in Atlanta than he would have in Toronto and that's why he's a Brave. It has nothing to do with AA or the Jays ownership etc. which seems to be the common theme.