Sheldon Keefe Discussion

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

The Kyle Dubas discussion got me thinking, Kyle's job probably isn't the most secure, and if there is no progress made this year he might be gone.

If the Leafs don't make progress this year and Kyle is gone how long a leash does Keefe have?

If The Leafs don't make progress this year and Kyle is fired a new GM may want a new coach.

Fair or not I'm not sure how secure Keefe's job is, because I'm not sure how secure Dubas job is.

and to be clear progress means ONE thing, you can't lose in round 1 again and to be safe you better win round 2

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[JT AM da real deal]

Dubie/Shanny likely both gone if this season is a failure ... it is far bigger than Dubie ... it means da plan did not work

 

[Throw More Waffles]

The lesson to be learned from all this would be "Don't get rookie management that admittedly 'learn as they go'" on a team that is clearly no longer rebuilding.

After the "new coach high" wore off, the leafs were only slightly better under Keefe than with Babcock. And given that they had "given up" on Babcock... that should alarm everyone.

January to end of season, leafs had 14 wins in 29 games.

 

[LeafsNation75]

The lesson to be learned from all this would be "Don't get rookie management that admittedly 'learn as they go'" on a team that is clearly no longer rebuilding.

After the "new coach high" wore off, the leafs were only slightly better under Keefe than with Babcock. And given that they had "given up" on Babcock... that should alarm everyone.

January to end of season, leafs had 14 wins in 29 games.

It's not like the Leafs had any playoff success with Mike Babcock despite all the experience he previously had, since they lost in the first round with him 2017, 2018, and 2019.

As for rookie management meaning Kyle Dubas, when Lou Lamoriello was the Leafs GM he was in Toronto when they were eliminated in 2017 and 2018.

Even if Dubas was not named the GM the other choice was going to be Mark Hunter who also had no previous experience as an NHL GM.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

It's not like the Leafs had any playoff success with Mike Babcock despite all the experience he previously had, since they lost in the first round with him 2017, 2018, and 2019.

As for rookie management meaning Kyle Dubas, when Lou Lamoriello was the Leafs GM he was in Toronto when they were eliminated in 2017 and 2018.

Even if Dubas was not named the GM the other choice was going to be Mark Hunter who also had no previous experience as an NHL GM.

You're comparing a coach/gm brought in to rebuild the team "there will be pain", to a gm/coach that took the rebuilt team that was supposed to be elite.

 

[LeafsNation75]

You're comparing a coach/gm brought in to rebuild the team "there will be pain", to a gm/coach that took the rebuilt team that was supposed to be elite.

I'm saying when the Leafs made the playoffs with the experienced coach and gm there wasn't any success in the playoffs. Even in 2019 with Babcock still there the Leafs blew a 3-2 series lead against Boston during Game 6. In that game despite knowing Zach Hyamn was playing with a torn ACL he puts him on the draw during a penalty kill and right after losing the faceoff Boston scores to tie that game 1-1.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I'm saying when the Leafs made the playoffs with the experienced coach and gm there wasn't any success in the playoffs. Even in 2019 with Babcock still there the Leafs blew a 3-2 series lead against Boston during Game 6. In that game despite knowing Zach Hyamn was playing with a torn ACL he puts him on the draw during a penalty kill and right after losing the faceoff Boston scores to tie that game 1-1.

Yes, when the core players were teenagers, they didn't have much success in the playoffs.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Yes, when the core players were teenagers, they didn't have much success in the playoffs.

2019 Was Toronto's third straight year making the playoffs and the first time they had a chance to win a series when up 3-2 going into Game 6 on home ice. Don't give me this crap about them being teenagers which I don't think they were anymore, since they had lost in six games in 2017 and seven games in 2018.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

The lesson to be learned from all this would be "Don't get rookie management that admittedly 'learn as they go'" on a team that is clearly no longer rebuilding.

After the "new coach high" wore off, the leafs were only slightly better under Keefe than with Babcock. And given that they had "given up" on Babcock... that should alarm everyone.

January to end of season, leafs had 14 wins in 29 games.

No it shouldn’t. Rielly and Muzzin were both out for your comparison forbthe most part.

 

[The Iceman]

If you buy into the process what Dubas has done should work in putting a contending team on the ice.

If the results aren't there it may be circumstantial. Injuries, puck luck.

Dubas is doing a great job filling the pipeline and acquiring players. Why do people want a new GM, Dubas has adjusted and worked through initial growing pains.
Sit back and enjoy the Dubas show for 10 years folks

 

[Buds17]

We're obviously looking at a regular season that will be different - and from the get go - from what we've grown accustomed to. That said, lack of progress shouldn't just be swept under the rug. I'd hope this isn't something that requires revisiting at the conclusion of the season. If that were to be the case, I'd guess Shanahan, Dubas and Keefe feel the heat in descending order. That's not to say firings would be automatic. However, it might be fair to say that a significant change to the roster would then be the alternative. If so, should that be the responsibility of familiar or new faces in charge?

 

[LeafsNation75]

No it shouldn’t. Rielly and Muzzin were both out for your comparison forbthe most part.

Even before Rielly started missing games he was already playing hurt with a different injury and not at 100%.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

If you buy into the process what Dubas has done should work in putting a contending team on the ice.

If the results aren't there it may be circumstantial. Injuries, puck luck.

Dubas is doing a great job filling the pipeline and acquiring players. Why do people want a new GM, Dubas has adjusted and worked through initial growing pains.
Sit back and enjoy the Dubas show for 10 years folks

Dubas has adjusted and I'm on board with nearly everything he did, except keeping the 15th pick, I wanted that moved for immediate help but he landed Brodie anyway so that's fine.

That said if these adjustments don't work it's not crazy to think he might be gone

 

[JT AM da real deal]

We're obviously looking at a regular season that will be different - and from the get go - from what we've grown accustomed to. That said, lack of progress shouldn't just be swept under the rug. I'd hope this isn't something that requires revisiting at the conclusion of the season. If that were to be the case, I'd guess Shanahan, Dubas and Keefe feel the heat in descending order. That's not to say firings would be automatic. However, it might be fair to say that a significant change to the roster would then be the alternative. If so, should that be the responsibility of familiar or new faces in charge?

Yeah it starts with Shanny as he gets Cliff's old advisor job to advise da new GUY then new guy picks his OWN guys

 

[Mickey Marner]

Shanahan is #1 on the chopping block. Six years so far without a playoff series win and he's on his 2nd GM. If the new president wants to fire Dubas, I'd like to retain him as director of amateur scouting, where he seems to be qualified. Not sure which way the wind would blow with Keefe, it would be up to the new GM to evaluate him.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

2019 Was Toronto's third straight year making the playoffs and the first time they had a chance to win a series when up 3-2 going into Game 6 on home ice. Don't give me this crap about them being teenagers which I don't think they were anymore, since they had lost in six games in 2017 and seven games in 2018.

And Babcock was fired for it. 2 years later, rookie coach, same results. Similar lame excuses.

Mao fully agreed. If Babcock and Lou deserved firing for lack of playoff success with that VERY young team, then Dubas and Keefe deserve a firing even more so with anything less than a solid playoff series win this year.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

No it shouldn’t. Rielly and Muzzin were both out for your comparison forbthe most part.

Injuries are a major part of hockey. Good teams acknowledge that. Mediocre team use it as a lame excuse. The cup champs just won the cup without their captain and number one Center.

 

[LeafsNation75]

And Babcock was fired for it. 2 years later, rookie coach, same results. Similar lame excuses.

Mao fully agreed. If Babcock and Lou deserved firing for lack of playoff success with that VERY young team, then Dubas and Keefe deserve a firing even more so with anything less than a solid playoff series win this year.

Sheldon Keefe has not yet coached a full season, even though the Leafs had a record of 27-15-5 since he took over.

 

[stickty111]

Keefe is safe this season. He progressed im the regular season more then Babcock ever did here, and Leafs played better in the playoffs as well.

 

[TheBigFour]

only way dubas or keefe get fired is if leafs miss the playoffs. Shanny is here for the long term, regardless what happens this year.
if babcock gets at least three years to make out of the first round, keefe should atleast get two years IMO.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Even before Rielly started missing games he was already playing hurt with a different injury and not at 100%.

Yeah very hindered what ever it was. It slowed him down terribly. Remember we were all wondering on here if there is something wrong with him. There was.

 

[LeafsNation75]

only way dubas or keefe get fired is if leafs miss the playoffs. Shanny is here for the long term, regardless what happens this year.
if babcock gets at least three years to make out of the first round, keefe should atleast get two years IMO.

I would give Keefe until after the 2021-22 season before making a decision like that. This season he will only coach 56 regular season games, so he deserves the chance to coach 82 games once everything goes back to normal.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Injuries are a major part of hockey. Good teams acknowledge that. Mediocre team use it as a lame excuse. The cup champs just won the cup without their captain and number one Center.

Everyone one is healthy now for the most part. Who’s the best team in Canada about to be answered . I want the bragging rights. I don’t care if its a shootout win difference. This team has to want it as much as fans do. I think they will be best in the country.…. The injuries we had are no excuse, they hurt us to a degree that other teams didn’t live.
Injuries are only looked at as a minimized thing on this board. They are real.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

I would give Keefe until after the 2021-22 season before making a decision like that. This season he will only coach 56 regular season games, so he deserves the chance to coach 82 games once everything goes back to normal.

Who will be the conscience defensively for the team is what matters. Someone needs to lay it out that defense is most important, then our counterpunching will win the games. Full out defense first. Bogosian,Simmonds,Thornton and Tavares,Spezza,Muzzy and Freddy is enough leadership. The young guys are insulated with enough veteran leadership now. I hope it works out good. Not saying the others don’t lead but there will be much more presence in the locker room now. Enough to put the fun back in the room in place of pressure. The coach will give them lots of pressure. The veterans will even keele the room

 

[LeafsNation75]

Who will be the conscience defensively for the team is what matters. Someone needs to lay it out that defense is most important, then our counterpunching will win the games. Full out defense first. Bogosian,Simmonds,Thornton and Tavares,Spezza,Muzzy and Freddy is enough leadership. The young guys are insulated with enough veteran leadership now. I hope it works out good. Not saying the others don’t lead but there will be much more presence in the locker room now. Enough to put the fun back in the room in place of pressure. The coach will give them lots of pressure. The veterans will even keele the room

At least with the signing of Joe Thornton he wants to win, where as when Patrick Marleau was in Toronto he seemed more concerned with his consecutive games played streak.