Sheldon Keefe Discussion Thread

[All Mod Cons]

This current Leaf era feels like a spice blend of the 2000s Ottawa Senators and Pep Guardiola possession football. It's all about supreme finesse skills, touches of the puck, bump backs, the zippy perimeter cycle game, always looking for an opening through heavy traffic but hesitant to get the inside track. Less emphasis on goaltending, window dressing grit players on the periphery of the core, always seem to dominate but have issues finishing off a less talented, blue collar team who can box out, disrupt, beat down. Regular season dominance.

I don't think we need to overwhelm anyone with top heavy skill or reinvent the way the game is played. All we really need is a conventionally balanced team to support the game breakers we already have.

100%.

You have Matthews, Marner and Nylander to build around.

Build a balanced team.
Don't pay your 2nd line centre 11m.
Easiest job in hockey.

 

[Shooter2x]

100%.

You have Matthews, Marner and Nylander to build around.

Build a balanced team.
Don't pay your 2nd line centre 11m.
Easiest job in hockey.

For me the prospects aren't good enough to throw this season away just because we need a lot of moves for balance.

Seriously stop being so soft guys. Make the damn move with prospects we will get over losing for the damn cup. Our core with another big impact player is enough pending they show up. But even if the impossible task to undo Dubas' foolishness occurs in a couple months (the 3-5+ moves needed to insulate the core with non impact players), the season still depends on the core showing up.

So take the path of least moves even though it's the most expensive . It's most expensive for a reason. It has the highest chance of working

 

[Racer88]

For me the prospects aren't good enough to throw this season away just because we need a lot of moves for balance.

Seriously stop being so soft guys. Make the damn move with prospects we will get over losing for the damn cup. Our core with another big impact player is enough pending they show up. But even if the impossible task to undo Dubas' foolishness occurs in a couple months (the 3-5+ moves needed to insulate the core with non impact players), the season still depends on the core showing up.

So take the path of least moves even though it's the most expensive . It's most expensive for a reason. It has the highest chance of working

I’m not sure what these 3-5 moves you think Dubas will make that will put them over the top but hasn’t he just spent the last 4 years changing the 3-5 supporting players.
this last crop up bottom 6 players are the worst yet

 

[Stephen]

I’m not sure what these 3-5 moves you think Dubas will make that will put them over the top but hasn’t he just spent the last 4 years changing the 3-5 supporting players.
this last crop up bottom 6 players are the worst yet

The big moves had to come at the draft and this past offseason. Move out tons of salary in a hurry (think Muzzin, Holl, Kerfoot at a minimum, maybe even Brodie if you're super aggressive) and reshuffle the entire middle class with all the cash on hand, UFA buys, freebies like Burns, etc. The Murray deal handcuffed them making moves elsewhere, though we didn't know he would be a Game 1 and done and Samsonov would have been a godsend. Otherwise you can't really maneuver in-season.

The only path to success is the Core 4 get red hot and stay red hot, and Samsonov solidifies his future starter credentials. The blueline is awful and you just do patch work there.

The alternative is you just accept this is a down year, try to get the Matthews contract in place and make the bold moves I outlined above next summer. Under new management or not, I don't know.

 

[francis246]

Oh yeah...that nothing burger this woke ass organization made a big deal of and didn't give him the C because of?

Try putting yourself in AMs shoes. You do some stupid drunk shit where you pull your pants down and ask ppl with your butt if you can have a mint. LOL. I guess you missed Ace Ventura. Stupid sure......but the organization makes a huge ordeal out of it and then hands the C that was always his to JT.

It was at that moment I knew he wouldn't resign. Hope I'm wrong but I've been deadly accurate for 5 years or so now

You don’t go around making an ass of yourself like that. Then refusing to apologize (the only reason why it became a big deal).

I would never put myself in a situation where I’d do something that stupid.

These guys aren't going to balance the team. Even if they go that route they don't have the GM in place to get it done. I hold strongly the best chance they have this year is to go big on the addition and hope some ELCs step up as the season goes on.

We will need to turnover 5 guys or more (that's insane to have to do during a contender year how is dubas not fired yet) and if you do less then your changes were not as good as just going big with impact.

Stats don't lie, you can win a cup with just 5-7 guys going top heavy on the stats and everyone else just doesn't do anything stupid and shows some heart.

Chicago turned over their roster 2 times after winning their first Stanley Cup. It’s not impossible, same thing with Pittsburgh. Each time they won their cups they turned over a significant portion of their roster

 

[Racer88]

The big moves had to come at the draft and this past offseason. Move out tons of salary in a hurry (think Muzzin, Holl, Kerfoot at a minimum, maybe even Brodie if you're super aggressive) and reshuffle the entire middle class with all the cash on hand, UFA buys, freebies like Burns, etc. The Murray deal handcuffed them making moves elsewhere, though we didn't know he would be a Game 1 and done and Samsonov would have been a godsend. Otherwise you can't really maneuver in-season.

The only path to success is the Core 4 get red hot and stay red hot, and Samsonov solidifies his future starter credentials. The blueline is awful and you just do patch work there.

The alternative is you just accept this is a down year, try to get the Matthews contract in place and make the bold moves I outlined above next summer. Under new management or not, I don't know.

Agreed 100% and If it’s is a down year we better have a new president and GM trying to fixit going forward. Dubas has had many chance but the supporting cast just keeps getting worse

You don’t go around making an ass of yourself like that. Then refusing to apologize (the only reason why it became a big deal).

I would never put myself in a situation where I’d do something that stupid.



Chicago turned over their roster 2 times after winning their first Stanley Cup. It’s not impossible, same thing with Pittsburgh. Each time they won their cups they turned over a significant portion of their roster

We keep turning over roster every year and havnt won a single round let alone a cup, maybe Chicago and Pitts have better people running their clubs

 

[Gabriel426]

Chicago turned over their roster 2 times after winning their first Stanley Cup. It’s not impossible, same thing with Pittsburgh. Each time they won their cups they turned over a significant portion of their roster

With all the talk about reshuffling and replacing the depth players...I know Hawks and Pens did it and still found success.

Would it be possible that we got the wrong horses? The constants for the Hawks were Toews, Kane, Keith, Seabrook and Crawford(even though he wasn't starter for the first one) for the Pens were Sid, Geno, Letang and MAF(even though Murray was pretty much the starter). Maybe the horses Shanny and Dubas are betting on just ain't horses that could win? I am not suggesting lets trade AM, MM, Willie, JT and Reilly, but when do we go, maybe the guys we have just can't do it together? When Avs was the up and coming team, ROR and Duchense were their horses. When the Caps was the up and coming team with Ovie, Green and Semin were their horses.
We can continue to hope our top guys play like top guys in the playoffs and hope just one or two of our depth guys produce like top guys in the playoffs, but when do MGT go, maybe our top guys just can't do it together. The tough question the MGT needs to face, is not can the current horses win a round in the playoffs, but are they good enough collectively to win the Cup?

 

[BallardEra]

With all the talk about reshuffling and replacing the depth players...I know Hawks and Pens did it and still found success.

Would it be possible that we got the wrong horses? The constants for the Hawks were Toews, Kane, Keith, Seabrook and Crawford(even though he wasn't starter for the first one) for the Pens were Sid, Geno, Letang and MAF(even though Murray was pretty much the starter). Maybe the horses Shanny and Dubas are betting on just ain't horses that could win? I am not suggesting lets trade AM, MM, Willie, JT and Reilly, but when do we go, maybe the guys we have just can't do it together? When Avs was the up and coming team, ROR and Duchense were their horses. When the Caps was the up and coming team with Ovie, Green and Semin were their horses.
We can continue to hope our top guys play like top guys in the playoffs and hope just one or two of our depth guys produce like top guys in the playoffs, but when do MGT go, maybe our top guys just can't do it together. The tough question the MGT needs to face, is not can the current horses win a round in the playoffs, but are they good enough collectively to win the Cup?

Dubas has repeatedly said yes that the core 4 can do it and that Keefe will be talked about for years to come as a great coach.

He’s “all in” and betting the house on them.

 

[Gabriel426]

Dubas has repeatedly said yes that the core 4 can do it and that Keefe will be talked about for years to come as a great coach.

He’s “all in” and betting the house on them.

Keefe already got a tons of respect from opposing coaches. Heck I would even state that opposing coaches love to face Keefe in the playoffs. lol.

Honestly, I think Dubas knows he is F**ked and just could not find a win win Hockey trade for one of his top guys.

 

[francis246]

Keefe already got a tons of respect from opposing coaches. Heck I would even state that opposing coaches love to face Keefe in the playoffs. lol.

Honestly, I think Dubas knows he is F**ked and just could not find a win win Hockey trade for one of his top guys.

There’s probably a deal out there. If Tkachuk, Eichel, Huberdeau can be moved, so can these guys. It’s just do you want to make that move? We’ll have to see how they do this year, if they shit the bed I’m sure someone is moved.

 

[Stephen]

With all the talk about reshuffling and replacing the depth players...I know Hawks and Pens did it and still found success.

Would it be possible that we got the wrong horses? The constants for the Hawks were Toews, Kane, Keith, Seabrook and Crawford(even though he wasn't starter for the first one) for the Pens were Sid, Geno, Letang and MAF(even though Murray was pretty much the starter). Maybe the horses Shanny and Dubas are betting on just ain't horses that could win? I am not suggesting lets trade AM, MM, Willie, JT and Reilly, but when do we go, maybe the guys we have just can't do it together? When Avs was the up and coming team, ROR and Duchense were their horses. When the Caps was the up and coming team with Ovie, Green and Semin were their horses.
We can continue to hope our top guys play like top guys in the playoffs and hope just one or two of our depth guys produce like top guys in the playoffs, but when do MGT go, maybe our top guys just can't do it together. The tough question the MGT needs to face, is not can the current horses win a round in the playoffs, but are they good enough collectively to win the Cup?

I just find the historic comparisons the Leafs use to the 90s Red Wings, 2020s Lightning, the 2010s Blackhawks and Penguins to be a little bit simplistic and superficial.

The whole Dubas line is he's betting on talent, believes in the core, draws parallels with all these great teams. Okay. Let's go with that and assume Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Tavares are as good as those core groups for a moment to keep the conversation going.

Do you have a Hall of Fame inducted coach from a previous dynasty in Scotty Bowman working the bench such as Detroit?

Do you have a franchise pillar in goal and on defense like Tampa to go along with the elite flashy forwards?

Does your team have that out of the box killer instinct? As a manager and coaching staff, do you know what killer instinct looks like?

 

[yubbers]

You don’t go around making an ass of yourself like that. Then refusing to apologize (the only reason why it became a big deal).

I would never put myself in a situation where I’d do something that stupid.



Chicago turned over their roster 2 times after winning their first Stanley Cup. It’s not impossible, same thing with Pittsburgh. Each time they won their cups they turned over a significant portion of their roster

Oh so you never did anything stupid as a drunk teenager huh? Ok Mother Theresa.

 

[Gabriel426]

I just find the historic comparisons the Leafs use to the 90s Red Wings, 2020s Lightning, the 2010s Blackhawks and Penguins to be a little bit simplistic and superficial.

The whole Dubas line is he's betting on talent, believes in the core, draws parallels with all these great teams. Okay. Let's go with that and assume Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Tavares are as good as those core groups for a moment to keep the conversation going.

Do you have a Hall of Fame inducted coach from a previous dynasty in Scotty Bowman working the bench such as Detroit?

Do you have a franchise pillar in goal and on defense like Tampa to go along with the elite flashy forwards?

Does your team have that out of the box killer instinct? As a manager and coaching staff, do you know what killer instinct looks like?

Yes and No.

I think it is too simple to just compare Team A and Team B.
My point had more to do with when do MGT see our top guys as the wrong guys to bet on? Like how many Playoffs failures do you need to make the moves?

You mentioned Wings, Lightnings, Hawks and Pens. Looking back now, we know their MGT made the right bets on their top guys, and moved out pieces that they can win without. I used Avs and Caps as example b/c both teams moved out pieces who they thought they could win with.

We might not have a HOF coach, even though we did with Babs, or Franchise Pillar in goal and on defense or killer instinct, but we do have a 1st team All Star RW, a Rocket/Hart Winner, another 1C playing as 2C, another 30 goals scoring winger, a very solid dcorps(last year playoffs) and good enough goaltending to win(Crawford, Hotlby and Keumper). Yet, our top guys still could not get past the 1st round. The object is to win the Cup and looking at our team, I think the only Cup winner they could beat in the Finals over the past 5 years is the Blues. I don't think they can beat the Caps, or TB and even though we like to believe they can make a run with the Avs, I highly doubt it.

There’s probably a deal out there. If Tkachuk, Eichel, Huberdeau can be moved, so can these guys. It’s just do you want to make that move? We’ll have to see how they do this year, if they shit the bed I’m sure someone is moved.

The Eichel was not a good hockey trade at all for the Sabres, despite their current run.

The Tkachuk and Hube deal was a great deal esp for the Flames. And I do hope Dubas can make such deal if he needs to.

 

[HockeyVirus]

This current Leaf era feels like a spice blend of the 2000s Ottawa Senators and Pep Guardiola possession football. It's all about supreme finesse skills, touches of the puck, bump backs, the zippy perimeter cycle game, always looking for an opening through heavy traffic but hesitant to get the inside track. Less emphasis on goaltending, window dressing grit players on the periphery of the core, always seem to dominate but have issues finishing off a less talented, blue collar team who can box out, disrupt, beat down. Regular season dominance.

I don't think we need to overwhelm anyone with top heavy skill or reinvent the way the game is played. All we really need is a conventionally balanced team to support the game breakers we already have.

I mean.. This is a trend THIS season only. Let's not pretend the Leafs have been a perimeter team at any point during this core. They routinely lead the league in high danger chances.

Again I think this is a symptom of just the general play of the team and not the players or abilities. When they snap out of it they will engage a lot more and drive the net. Matthews hasn't really gotten many chances from there they have all been from the outside and scoring in tight is almost his bread and butter..

 

[Stephen]

I mean.. This is a trend THIS season only. Let's not pretend the Leafs have been a perimeter team at any point during this core. They routinely lead the league in high danger chances.

Again I think this is a symptom of just the general play of the team and not the players or abilities. When they snap out of it they will engage a lot more and drive the net. Matthews hasn't really gotten many chances from there they have all been from the outside and scoring in tight is almost his bread and butter..

This brand of Leafs getting stonewalled by a park the bus defense has been happening since the Columbus series.

 

[HockeyVirus]

This brand of Leafs getting stonewalled by a park the bus defense has been happening since the Columbus series.

Every single team in the league gets stonewalled by this. In every series the difference has been our goalies have been the 2nd best when it counts.

 

[Trapper]

Yes and No.

I think it is too simple to just compare Team A and Team B.
My point had more to do with when do MGT see our top guys as the wrong guys to bet on? Like how many Playoffs failures do you need to make the moves?

You mentioned Wings, Lightnings, Hawks and Pens. Looking back now, we know their MGT made the right bets on their top guys, and moved out pieces that they can win without. I used Avs and Caps as example b/c both teams moved out pieces who they thought they could win with.

We might not have a HOF coach, even though we did with Babs, or Franchise Pillar in goal and on defense or killer instinct, but we do have a 1st team All Star RW, a Rocket/Hart Winner, another 1C playing as 2C, another 30 goals scoring winger, a very solid dcorps(last year playoffs) and good enough goaltending to win(Crawford, Hotlby and Keumper). Yet, our top guys still could not get past the 1st round. The object is to win the Cup and looking at our team, I think the only Cup winner they could beat in the Finals over the past 5 years is the Blues. I don't think they can beat the Caps, or TB and even though we like to believe they can make a run with the Avs, I highly doubt it.


The Eichel was not a good hockey trade at all for the Sabres, despite their current run.

The Tkachuk and Hube deal was a great deal esp for the Flames. And I do hope Dubas can make such deal if he needs to.

Calgary lost 2 100 point guys. Are they better or worse? Time will tell but team > individual.
People here would meltdown on just moving a Nylander/Muzzin in a deal. Which we should have done at the start of the year to prepare for the next UFA wave.

If we didn’t prepare for that next wave, we’d be sorry. Just like asset management doesn’t hurt you today but you’ll be sorry.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

I don't care for Sheldon Keefe.

I know it's early, but 5 more games will likely tell the tale.

For now it seems like either Keefe is not preparing these guys for games, or they are tuning him out.

Either way it's bad for Keefe and really bad for Shanny/Dubas.

 

[Gabriel426]

Calgary lost 2 100 point guys. Are they better or worse? Time will tell but team > individual.
People here would meltdown on just moving a Nylander/Muzzin in a deal. Which we should have done at the start of the year to prepare for the next UFA wave.

If we didn’t prepare for that next wave, we’d be sorry. Just like asset management doesn’t hurt you today but you’ll be sorry.

Agree completely. As I said, when do MGT knows it is time that the current core just can't do it collectively.

Flames is very interesting, since they actually believe their core it just so happened two of their top 3 players decided not to play for them anymore and Flames made a horrible situation into a great leap forward.

 

[Racer88]

Dubas has repeatedly said yes that the core 4 can do it and that Keefe will be talked about for years to come as a great coach.

He’s “all in” and betting the house on them.

Hopefully this is the year his bet pays off and if not he needs to be gone the day after our season ends

 

[mikeyz]

At this point, I honest to god wouldn’t be opposed to a rebuild and getting these self entitled brats out of the organization.

And yes, I know how talented these guys are and I know how difficult a rebuild can be.

This is how unlikeable MM and AM are right now.

 

[CDN24]

Every single team in the league gets stonewalled by this. In every series the difference has been our goalies have been the 2nd best when it counts.

If you are allocating 50% of the Cap to 4 F, you can likely expect your goalies to be 2nd best because the opposition generally has more resources allocated to their Goaltending.
Last year Tampa 9.5M for Vasi tied for highest pd player on team
2021 Habs 10.5 Price highest paid player on the team
2020 Bubble - CBJ had bargain basement goaltending
2019 and 2018 Boston 7.0M combined on Rask - 2nd highest salary on his team

Once you allocate that much cap to 4F you are betting that your forwards can outperform the other teams better goaltending- so far it has not happened.

 

[Canadian Finn]

has he and dubas been fired yet?

 

[keonsbitterness]

At this point, I honest to god wouldn’t be opposed to a rebuild and getting these self entitled brats out of the organization.

And yes, I know how talented these guys are and I know how difficult a rebuild can be.

This is how unlikeable MM and AM are right now.

I get the frustration, but that would risk another 10+ years of mediocrity.

 

[DarkKnight]

He lost me Game 4 pre-game, so self satisfied to have already achieved a split, it’s all gravy now mentality. His team came out just like the coach, foot off the gas, facing a wounded animal, content. He didn’t understand the moment, his inexperience was apparent and they squandered a chance to bury the champs. Keefe has literally been out coached three successive post seasons, it’s beyond frustrating enduring this guy figuring it out while we blow prime window years.