Speculation: Sharks Roster Discussion Part VI

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DrFeelgood

Chairman Meow
May 8, 2006
21,059
411
San Jose, CA
The only reason Hertl plays on the third line is because this team wants to have scoring ability from the third line. It's the same reason all of our up-and-comers end up in the bottom 6, because they show some scoring potential and they want them to be used as "solid depth scoring" rather than a premier top 6 player.

Is that the right move? That's probably debatable. There's no question that there's value in depth scoring but pigeonholing Hertl there will likely be a detriment to his career.
 

do0glas

Registered User
Jan 26, 2012
13,271
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The only reason Hertl plays on the third line is because this team wants to have scoring ability from the third line. It's the same reason all of our up-and-comers end up in the bottom 6, because they show some scoring potential and they want them to be used as "solid depth scoring" rather than a premier top 6 player.

Is that the right move? That's probably debatable. There's no question that there's value in depth scoring but pigeonholing Hertl there will likely be a detriment to his career.

The problem is that his trajectory should be as a center.

You could argue power forward, which id be okay with but his possession ability seems like something that should be used as a center.
 

LA Shark

Hello Darkness My Old Freind
Feb 18, 2017
3,576
2,573
Southern California
I like the idea of Hertl centering Couture. Sign Kovy to play with the Joes.

Kovy-Jumbo-Pavs
Couture-Hertl-Donskoi
Meier-Tierney-Hansen
Melker-Carpenter-Beodker

I'd prefer Labanc over Beodker but don't see us being able to dump both him and Ward.
 

T0uGh C0oki3

Goodbye Jumbo Joe
Dec 19, 2014
3,863
100
I like the idea of Hertl centering Couture. Sign Kovy to play with the Joes.

Kovy-Jumbo-Pavs
Couture-Hertl-Donskoi
Meier-Tierney-Hansen
Melker-Carpenter-Beodker

I'd prefer Labanc over Beodker but don't see us being able to dump both him and Ward.
We are not in Kovy's short list.
 

T0uGh C0oki3

Goodbye Jumbo Joe
Dec 19, 2014
3,863
100
If we have to move Couture to wing, why don't we just move him for a top line winger + ?

Moving him to wing sounds like terrible asset management.
 

Juxtaposer

Outro: Divina Comedia
Dec 21, 2009
49,472
22,099
Bay Area
If we have to move Couture to wing, why don't we just move him for a top line winger + ?

Moving him to wing sounds like terrible asset management.

Why didn't we just trade Marleau for a winger plus?

Why didn't we just trade Pavelski for a winger plus?
 

CrypTic

Registered User
Oct 2, 2013
5,069
81
I'm all for moving Couture to wing so that Hertl can center the second line. This looks like a wasted year to me anyway. May as well do things that may cause bumps. Hertl still has potential and I'd like to at least try to maximize the odds of him developing into a top center.

To tie into what kcoyote said, I think a big part of the problem is that the Sharks need to make the playoffs every year so whenever a young player struggles, there's pressure to cut their minutes and play them lower in the lineup. Most young players need to play through their mistakes, which is fine if you're gunning for 1st OA but not if you want to at least make the playoffs. Most of them will probably never be more than depth players but some may have.

Maybe DW and Hasso see this as a development year so our young players will get more opportunities. I dunno. I can't figure out what DW is doing this season. I'm trying not to be negative but he's sending mixed signals IMO.
 

tiburon12

Registered User
Jul 18, 2009
4,970
4,974
The sad thing is, DW gave all that money to Jumbo thinking Marleau was coming back as well no doubt. It's definately being pushed.

Joe was gonna take less if Marleau had stayed, though


“Jumbo gave us that flexibility. Without going into details, Joe deserves a huge compliment for what he was willing to do,†said Wilson. “He was so willing to do whatever it took. We agreed it was going to be a one-year contract, but his flexibly as far as compensation, to do anything to help, was at the forefront. He’s a special, special guy.â€Â

https://sports.yahoo.com/courtship-joe-thornton-patrick-marleau-183610401.html
 

Internazionale

Registered User
Apr 24, 2007
1,984
823
Airdrie, AB
Joe was gonna take less if Marleau had stayed, though


“Jumbo gave us that flexibility. Without going into details, Joe deserves a huge compliment for what he was willing to do,†said Wilson. “He was so willing to do whatever it took. We agreed it was going to be a one-year contract, but his flexibly as far as compensation, to do anything to help, was at the forefront. He’s a special, special guy.â€Â

https://sports.yahoo.com/courtship-joe-thornton-patrick-marleau-183610401.html

Yeah but he gave him 8 M, while the other piece to the puzzle flew the coup. It didn't work out as planned, and now are missing a key player.
 

WTFetus

Marlov
Mar 12, 2009
17,914
3,575
San Francisco
Joe was gonna take less if Marleau had stayed, though


“Jumbo gave us that flexibility. Without going into details, Joe deserves a huge compliment for what he was willing to do,†said Wilson. “He was so willing to do whatever it took. We agreed it was going to be a one-year contract, but his flexibly as far as compensation, to do anything to help, was at the forefront. He’s a special, special guy.â€Â

https://sports.yahoo.com/courtship-joe-thornton-patrick-marleau-183610401.html

Wonder how much of that quote is also a small dig on Marleau. ;)
Thornton definitely could've gotten a similar if not bigger contract in free agency too.

Sounds like it was just going to be 1x6.75 with Marleau, or 1x8 without.
 

LA Shark

Hello Darkness My Old Freind
Feb 18, 2017
3,576
2,573
Southern California
I have to imagine that there is a backup plan. Seems odd DW would realize we need another top 6 forward but just give up after Patty leaves. I also find it hard to believe that Jumbo wouldn't have jumped ship too if this is a development year.
 

CrypTic

Registered User
Oct 2, 2013
5,069
81
Wonder how much of that quote is also a small dig on Marleau. ;)
Thornton definitely could've gotten a similar if not bigger contract in free agency too.

Sounds like it was just going to be 1x6.75 with Marleau, or 1x8 without.

I read it as that and trying to mend fences with the Thornton camp for the public spat a few years ago.
 
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CrypTic

Registered User
Oct 2, 2013
5,069
81
I have to imagine that there is a backup plan. Seems odd DW would realize we need another top 6 forward but just give up after Patty leaves. I also find it hard to believe that Jumbo wouldn't have jumped ship too if this is a development year.

I assume that there's a backup plan and that it has a few options for accomplishing each of its objectives. I can't imagine that they'd only be interested in one winger, for example, and that they have other options (e.g., more scoring from defense) in case a good winger isn't available.
 

OrrNumber4

Registered User
Jul 25, 2002
16,479
5,859
It's time though. I'm tired of the rinse and repeat cycle for young kids wherein they come in, get a lot of icetime, do fairly well, then get recycled to the minors or bottom 6 roles throughout their career.

This is why I wasn't as critical of DW when he traded away picks/prospects and moved up in the draft so aggressively. Not because the Sharks mishandle prospects, but because their hands have generally been tied by the quality of their top forwards.

For more than a half-decade, the Sharks have had Thornton, Marleau, Couture, and Pavelski solidly in the top-6. They've had players like Clowe, Havlat, Heatley, Burns, and Michalek filling out the other positions. That is the hurdle a young player has to cross. And given that the Sharks have been a competing team, he doesn't have much time to do it; he pretty much instantly has to jump in and start contributing. Hertl and Donskoi were able to do it, partly because of weaker rosters those particular years, but few are going to be able to do it. I'm not sure how Goldobin, Coyle, Bonino, Boyes, Mcginn, etc. would have developed in San Jose with few chances to grow.

Also, I'd question the potential of some of your listed players. Do you really believe that Karlsson, Tierney, or Nieto could ever leapfrog over those other players? Not to mention players like Boedker and Ward! I can't see a world where Chris Tierney forces Logan Couture out of a center spot. I daresay it looks like Tierney is going to be the #3C this year, and he's likely to be overwhelmed.

Looking at the current "sans-Marleau" roster, I can see Labanc and/or Meier having more opportunities and chances to grow. On defense, I can see where Heed, DeMelo, and Ryan can at least get NHL time. From that perspective, giving spots to those players is good for the team's future.

But, I think we can all agree that if the Sharks were solely focused on being more competitive now, keeping Marleau, acquiring someone like Radulov, and keeping Schlemko would have been the better short-term strategies. Maybe it leaves Heed, Ryan, and Meier in the AHL and Labanc on the fourth line (if that), but that is a more competitive, less risky Sharks team.
 

spintops

Registered User
Sep 13, 2013
1,752
1,090
Maybe I'm over thinking it, but Couture will be one of our top 2 centers next year if Joe is gone, so we would just move him right back ?

Plus I'm bias because I want to see more Timo mutant ninja Hertl line
 

Jwec

Registered User
Dec 21, 2015
2,879
862
Finland
I really don't want sub 0.5 PPG player as our second line center next season. Couture is much better option at that than Hertl. Couture can produce 60ish points playing with anyone and playing also better two-way hockey but ideally we would play him with winger who is good at faceoffs because Couture is not good faceoffman. Hertl should be with Joes or our third line center.

Top 6 winger would be the best add to this team. Hopefully DW can find one.
 

Juxtaposer

Outro: Divina Comedia
Dec 21, 2009
49,472
22,099
Bay Area
I really don't want sub 0.5 PPG player as our second line center next season. Couture is much better option at that than Hertl. Couture can produce 60ish points playing with anyone and playing also better two-way hockey but ideally we would play him with winger who is good at faceoffs because Couture is not good faceoffman. Hertl should be with Joes or our third line center.

Top 6 winger would be the best add to this team. Hopefully DW can find one.
Hertl is without question better defensively than Couture right now.

If you gave Hertl good wingers (like Couture!), real top-6 minutes, and top unit PP time, I feel extremely confident that he would produce at a 50+ point pace. Which, may I remind you, qualifies as good second line production nowadays.
 

do0glas

Registered User
Jan 26, 2012
13,271
683
Hertl is without question better defensively than Couture right now.

If you gave Hertl good wingers (like Couture!), real top-6 minutes, and top unit PP time, I feel extremely confident that he would produce at a 50+ point pace. Which, may I remind you, qualifies as good second line production nowadays.

Eh?

Couture was with boedker and donskoi ward and labanc.

Thats essentially what hertl had.
 
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