Speculation: Sharks Roster Discussion Part 2

[weastern bias]

Nieto is still a really effective defensive forward, I think the best among our current 4th line rotation

I think all of our depth forwards provide something that makes them valuable and there's no real goat of the group

Haley = intangibles 4 days bruh
Karlsson = relentless forechecking and strong board presence
Nieto = defense and speed
Tierney = strong vision and good passing in the offensive zone
Ward = crashbang player with legit goal scoring pop, just old
Wingels = too skilled for the 4th line (even if he doesn't always play like it)

None of those guy's presence is gonna lose you the game, I'm happy with our depth, nobody sucks

Remember Burish?

 

[DG93]

yeah- i honestly can't really tell the difference between him and karlsson. those 2 are pretty interchangeable 4th liners for us.

Karlsson is a very good 4th liner, and I'd be pissed if he was benched.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Really? Karlsson can (and has) score some clutch goals for the Sharks. I like nieto but I don't know if he's ever scored a "clutch" goal for the Sharks.

Exactly. Karlsson gets to the dirty areas more and scores tough goals. Nieto rarely does.

 

[SactoShark]

Remember Burish?

#NeverForget

 

[CrypTic]

Does anyone here know how XPM is calculated? I ran across links to these charts on twitter:

https://public.tableau.com/shared/S7DZ2T64J?:display_count=yes

https://public.tableau.com/profile/sean.tierney#!/vizhome/XPMTotalImpactbyteam/Dashboard1


These show Ward contributes a lot to defense and a bit to offense. (You can hover over the Shark symbol that represents the player in the graph to get the number.) He's the third most impactful Shark, tied with MEV at 3.4. Wingels, Nieto, and Haley are all bunched together in the lower left (i.e., "bad") quadrant. Tierney hurts us more at D but helps us more at 0 than those three.

Without knowing how this is calculated, I'm not sure what to make of it but it's interesting.

 

[Used As A Shield]

#NeverForget

The ref just staring gets me every time.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

#NeverForget

#DownwardFacingDesertDog

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

The ref just staring gets me every time.

I mean, what can he call there?

 

[pappaf2]

I mean, what can he call there?

 

[Sharksrule04]

Just by eye, I'd rank Karlsson>Wingels>Nieto>Haley, with Wingels and Nieto the closest as far as being interchangeable. It's hard to say about that though, since Nieto AND Wingels have played so little this year, maybe I'm letting nostalgia creep in there on my judgement.

I think Karlsson is noticeably better than the other 3. Wingels is noticeably better than Nieto and Haley. Haley and Nieto are interchangeable IMO. Who is played between those two should be based on the opponent. Had such high hopes for Nieto but he never learned to finish.

 

[Timo Time]

You know who Karlsson reminds me of? Scott Nichol. Man I wanted his jersey during his last season here.

 

[spintheblackcircle]

...Charlie Coyle has become awesome. Glad to see that, always liked him.

Liked Brock Nelson more at the draft, but Coyle is fantastic.

 

[Mattb124]

I think Karlsson is noticeably better than the other 3. Wingels is noticeably better than Nieto and Haley. Haley and Nieto are interchangeable IMO. Who is played between those two should be based on the opponent. Had such high hopes for Nieto but he never learned to finish.

Agreed

 

[Nolan11]

What do you think of the value of the following?:

William Nylander + Bozak + Michalek (cap dump buried in minors, sentimental value) + our 2018 picks back
for
Couture + Milkman + Dillon

Nylander is a top 10 prospect with 2 years remaining RFA and is playing 2nd season in NHL. He is producing now at a top six level and should become a top line player (similar draft pedigree to Couture/Meier). He would be a good add for our core post-Thornton.

I'd try:

Marleau - Thornton - Nylander
Meier - Hertl - Pavelski
Donskoi - Bozak - LaBanc
Boedker - Tierney - Ward
Wingels/Haley

Martin - Burns
Vlasic - DeMelo
Schlemko - Braun
Heed/Mueller

Jones
Dell

 

[Celly4Celebrini]

No thx

If you want to find key pieces to post Jumbo core, you look for a top line centre, not winger

And you don't accomplish that by dealing Couture

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

What do you think of the value of the following?:

William Nylander + Bozak + Michalek (cap dump buried in minors, sentimental value) + our 2018 picks back
for
Couture + Milkman + Dillon

Nylander is a top 10 prospect with 2 years remaining RFA and is playing 2nd season in NHL. He is producing now at a top six level and should become a top line player (similar draft pedigree to Couture/Meier). He would be a good add for our core post-Thornton.

I'd try:

Marleau - Thornton - Nylander
Meier - Hertl - Pavelski
Donskoi - Bozak - LaBanc
Boedker - Tierney - Ward
Wingels/Haley

Martin - Burns
Vlasic - DeMelo
Schlemko - Braun
Heed/Mueller

Jones
Dell

Value aside, how can you want to trade Couture after the playoffs he had last year. Also, with how bad Thornton has been this year, do you really want Hertl, Thornton and Bozak to be your top 3 C's beyond this year?

 

[jMoneyBrah]

What do you think of the value of the following?:

William Nylander + Bozak + Michalek (cap dump buried in minors, sentimental value) + our 2018 picks back
for
Couture + Milkman + Dillon

I could see that as interesting for the Sharks, but I don't see how that is really very interesting to the Maple Leafs.

Firstly there's Michalek, who is a free agent after this season so there's no long term savings for the Leafs by moving his contract. Additionally, they have plenty of cap room, and there is always Horton's indefinite LTIR status grants the Leafs a $5.3M cap cushion. They can make all other parts of this trade without offloading Michalek's salary. So there is no urgency for the Leafs to move Michalek, and I doubt they'd pay anything extra to do so.

Then, while Melker and Dillon are fine players all in all, they aren't really difference makers. I'd put their fair value together at something like a 2nd + 3rd (so essentially the 2018 picks) + MAYBE something small like a mid level prospect or a late round pick.

Melker + Dillon ~= 2018 2nd + 2018 3rd + something small

Lastly, while I'm sure this board is of the opinion that Couture is better than Bozak, but I'd think you'd have to be wearing teal glasses in a teal car to estimate the difference between Bozak and Couture is Nylander.

My guess is a package to get those two players from Toronto looks more like:

Couture + Braun

for

Nylander + Bozak

 

[jMoneyBrah]

With the team goal scoring being in the bottom third of the league, Tierney not currently being suited for 3C duties, and the fourth line having been without a center for a while now, does anybody think it might be time to test-drive splitting up the Joes?

Maybe trying Labanc as a poor man's Pavelski on the top line (right handed, good release, good offensive instincts) and building a 3rd line for Pavelski with a mix of speed and playmaking (ala the Mitchell - Pavelski - Wellwood line from ages ago). Maybe Goldobin and Boedker?

Something like:

Marleau - Thornton - Labanc
Meier - Couture - Donskoi
Goldobin - Pavelski - Boedker
Karlsson - Tierney - Wingels/Ward <- Let's face it... Haley

 

[CrypTic]

With the team goal scoring being in the bottom third of the league, Tierney not currently being suited for 3C duties, and the fourth line having been without a center for a while now, does anybody think it might be time to test-drive splitting up the Joes?

Maybe trying Labanc as a poor man's Pavelski on the top line (right handed, good release, good offensive instincts) and building a 3rd line for Pavelski with a mix of speed and playmaking (ala the Mitchell - Pavelski - Wellwood line from ages ago). Maybe Goldobin and Boedker?

Something like:

Marleau - Thornton - Labanc
Meier - Couture - Donskoi
Goldobin - Pavelski - Boedker
Karlsson - Tierney - Wingels/Ward <- Let's face it... Haley

I've been wanting them to try the Joes apart for a while. I was thinking he should be moved with Couture but that was when Couture was struggling a lot. I'm not sure Pavs is still good enough at center to play this season but I guess trying him on the third line would be the place to find out.

I also agree with your earlier comment about trading for Nylander. I can't see Toronto agreeing to that trade. I think it would take a lot to get Nylander. Couture is a lot but they're more concerned with a couple of years from now than today so this moves them in the wrong direction age-wise. I'm sure they'd like to trade Bozak (and IMO he may be a cap dump from some of the TML fans' POV) but still probably not worth it to them to give up Nylander for Couture and Dillon in order to get rid of Bozak, especially bc he's only signed through the 2017-18 season.

 

[Nolan11]

I could see that as interesting for the Sharks, but I don't see how that is really very interesting to the Maple Leafs.

Firstly there's Michalek, who is a free agent after this season so there's no long term savings for the Leafs by moving his contract. Additionally, they have plenty of cap room, and there is always Horton's indefinite LTIR status grants the Leafs a $5.3M cap cushion. They can make all other parts of this trade without offloading Michalek's salary. So there is no urgency for the Leafs to move Michalek, and I doubt they'd pay anything extra to do so.

Then, while Melker and Dillon are fine players all in all, they aren't really difference makers. I'd put their fair value together at something like a 2nd + 3rd (so essentially the 2018 picks) + MAYBE something small like a mid level prospect or a late round pick.

Melker + Dillon ~= 2018 2nd + 2018 3rd + something small

Lastly, while I'm sure this board is of the opinion that Couture is better than Bozak, but I'd think you'd have to be wearing teal glasses in a teal car to estimate the difference between Bozak and Couture is Nylander.

My guess is a package to get those two players from Toronto looks more like:

Couture + Braun

for

Nylander + Bozak

My thought process for valuation was more like nylander +2018 sis 2nd and cap dump of michalek roughly = couture's value. Adding couture at center lowers their need for bozak, thus they may be willing to part with him. According to several leaf posters, Braun is tooooo old for their rebuild (turning 30). Given that they need d, Dillon would improve their current d and adding him and couture should push them into playoff position this year. Couture is a playoff beSt and should show their young guys what it takes (plus he is a local boy)

Honestly, I think it makes both teams better ( even with us losing the best player in the deal).

 

[Sideshow Raheem]

Bozak is horrible.

 

[Le Grand Quebecois]

I remember at some Sharks Talk DW once mentioned how the scouts and coaches have a plan for where players fit on the roster. In a different discussion, I remember him saying that players like Goodrow needed to season in the AHL (paraphrasing) because they had bigger expectations for him than just 4th line minutes.

Does anyone remember anything like that? Has there ever been any breakdown of which players fit into what roles?

 

[Alwalys]

oh god imagine ... the reunion of dillon-polak

 

[OrrNumber4]

I remember at some Sharks Talk DW once mentioned how the scouts and coaches have a plan for where players fit on the roster. In a different discussion, I remember him saying that players like Goodrow needed to season in the AHL (paraphrasing) because they had bigger expectations for him than just 4th line minutes.

Does anyone remember anything like that? Has there ever been any breakdown of which players fit into what roles?

Probably just talk...what is he supposed to say, that Goodrow is in the AHL because he isn't good enough to make the team?

There are sometimes players with glaring deficiencies in their game, who, once said deficiencies are ironed out, can go from being a good AHLer to a top-half NHL player. Goodrow isn't one of those guys.

 

[rangerssharks414]

oh god imagine ... the reunion of dillon-polak

Why did you even have to mention it? Ugh, bad memories.