Speculation: Sharks Roster Discussion Part 2

[Timos Death Stare]

I would think that Mueller, Meier, and Tierney with a 2nd or 3rd for Duchene would make sense from both sides. Braun doesn't make sense for them if they're going rebuild.

Wouldn't there need to be salary going back? Really think Boedker needs to be in there.

 

[Juxtaposer]

Apparently the Avs have sent two scouts to the past two Cuda games, and the game before those two the Cuda played the Avs' affiliate so they likely got a good look then too. The Cuda and the Avs' affiliate do not play for the rest of the season. I think that's notable, even if it the two games were back-to-backs in SJ and it doesn't really make a ton of sense since we're not great trading partners.

 

[TrappedInFullerton]

I would think that Mueller, Meier, and Tierney with a 2nd or 3rd for Duchene would make sense from both sides. Braun doesn't make sense for them if they're going rebuild.

Jesus, that's more than the Sharks gave up for Thornton. No thanks.

 

[Juxtaposer]

Jesus, that's more than the Sharks gave up for Thornton. No thanks.

That's still an underpayment for Duchene.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Wouldn't there need to be salary going back? Really think Boedker needs to be in there.

Yeah and it'd have to be around 3.6 mil minus any possible retention. Probably Wingels and try to get them to retain a mil.

Jesus, that's more than the Sharks gave up for Thornton. No thanks.

You can't base trades off of the Thornton trade. That was a ripoff and really Tierney and Mueller aren't terribly valuable. The 2nd or 3rd is pretty much a throw-in. I would easily give that up for Duchene. He's a damn good player.

 

[Sideshow Raheem]

Jesus, that's more than the Sharks gave up for Thornton. No thanks.

You're kidding, right? Sturm and Stuart were legit impact NHL players at the time of that trade, which Meier and Mueller absolutely aren't. Wayne Primeau is basically equivalent to Chris Tierney, if a little older.

Also that was the most lopsided trade of the last 15-20 years. We're never gonna swing a deal that favorable to us again.

 

[hockeyball]

Landeskog really seems more of a 'dw type player' to me. If he's going for one or the other, I bet it's Landeskog.

 

[Juxtaposer]

Landeskog really seems more of a 'dw type player' to me. If he's going for one or the other, I bet it's Landeskog.

More than likely, but it would be the wrong choice. Landeskog is a good player, but Duchene is a game-breaker.

 

[Sideshow Raheem]

Landeskog really seems more of a 'dw type player' to me. If he's going for one or the other, I bet it's Landeskog.

He is totally the more DW type player. Which is precisely why we've never won a Cup under Wilson. We don't need another two-way "leadership" guy, we need someone who can blaze past opposing defenses and create offense out of nothing.

 

[do0glas]

He is totally the more DW type player. Which is precisely why we've never won a Cup under Wilson. We don't need another two-way "leadership" guy, we need someone who can blaze past opposing defenses and create offense out of nothing.

thats great and all, but we seriously dont have whats needed to get duchene.

 

[Timos Death Stare]

Apparently the Avs have sent two scouts to the past two Cuda games, and the game before those two the Cuda played the Avs' affiliate so they likely got a good look then too. The Cuda and the Avs' affiliate do not play for the rest of the season. I think that's notable, even if it the two games were back-to-backs in SJ and it doesn't really make a ton of sense since we're not great trading partners.

Good insight - is there a blog or article somewhere mentioning that? I could see this being an all-in year for us.

 

[Sideshow Raheem]

thats great and all, but we seriously dont have whats needed to get duchene.

If we can't get Duchene I think we should just stand pat. The only thing this team really "needs" (besides a better coach) is an elite scorer and Duchene is likely the only one available.

 

[Juxtaposer]

So I've just discovered datarink.com and it seems like a solid advanced stats site. Definitely nothing too fancy but it actually loads and has possession stats for line combinations. Here are some thoughts:

1. Haley-Wingels-Karlsson isn't awful.
2a. Donskoi-Couture-Labanc is solid offensively but an absolute ****show defensively.
2b. Labanc is probably the reason for it being a ****show defensively; by score-adjusted 5v5 CA/60, Labanc is one of the absolute worst defensive forwards in the league.
2c. The line should be Donskoi-Couture-Boedker, according to stats.
3a. Hertl and Marleau are incredible together.
3b. Hertl is an incredible shot-suppressor.
3c. In limited time, Marleau-Hertl-Labanc was awesome.
4. Top-line Meier works.
4b. The only player that can drag down Joe Thornton is Joel Ward.

Obviously using solely possession numbers to make decisions is dumb, but I thought this was interesting and I think the most important takeaway here is that the current Donskoi-Couture-Labanc line is a complete ****show. They have a 43.6% score adjusted 5v5 CF% in 51 minutes, which is obviously horrific. Either swap Donskoi with Boedker, Labanc with Boedker, or Labanc with Ward. Donskoi-Couture-Boedker is good, Donskoi-Couture-Ward is good, and Ward-Couture-Labanc is good. Any of those will do. And I really like the idea of Marleau-Hertl-Labanc.

Good insight - is there a blog or article somewhere mentioning that? I could see this being an all-in year for us.

It's been mentioned on twitter. Nothing about a prospective trade, just that the Avs are scouting the Cuda.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Dillon alone won't get it done but if it's something like 1st+Dillon+Meier+Boedker that might be in the running. Truthfully I just don't see them getting someone of Gostisbehere or even Fowler's caliber for Duchene (and not because Duchene isn't worth either player, because he is and then some). If the Canes are willing to move Hanifin for him then no one else should even bother but there's a reason things like the Ryan O'Reilly trade go down: it's tough to get equal value for these types of players. Especially when you're a team in Colorado's position who has hit rock bottom and made it clear Duchene is on the market. Sometimes quantity is all you can get.

I think the point would be that if star players are frequently traded for "below equal value", maybe what we define as equal value has to be reevaluated?

Quantity-for-quality trades seem to be the norm, especially when the team getting quantity is tanking...

He's been meh this year and wasn't great last year, but he was absolutely fantastic the year before and given how awful the Isles org/coaching is, I think there's a reasonable chance Strome isn't primarily to blame here. I'm not saying Strome is a lock to set the world on fire, but he has a ton of upside and taking a small risk to acquire him would be extremely smart.

Agreed. It seems that Islanders fans know they'd be selling low on him and rather just keep him. But, I figure if the actual team and/or Strome just wants to move on, the Sharks could buy cheap.

Wouldn't there need to be salary going back? Really think Boedker needs to be in there.

The Sharks could manage it, if they traded Wingels to someone. They'd probably need to manage with a 21-man roster, but the Barracuda are in the same city.

You're kidding, right? Sturm and Stuart were legit impact NHL players at the time of that trade, which Meier and Mueller absolutely aren't. Wayne Primeau is basically equivalent to Chris Tierney, if a little older.

Sturm was a legit NHLer, Stuart was a struggling top-4 defenseman who some people (including Boston) thought had great upside. Primeau was a character fourth-liner thrown in to balance salary. Tierney is a very young bottom-6 center with obvious unteachable skills, coming off of a strong playoffs. Some people will look at his rookie season and say he will be able to produce more given more responsibility.

He is totally the more DW type player. Which is precisely why we've never won a Cup under Wilson. We don't need another two-way "leadership" guy, we need someone who can blaze past opposing defenses and create offense out of nothing.

I think there is a pre-Plattner and post-Plattner DW. One has to admit that his decisions have been different since Plattner came on board. Funding the developmental team, better drafting, being super-active in the FA market, targeting European players, etc.

If we can't get Duchene I think we should just stand pat. The only thing this team really "needs" (besides a better coach) is an elite scorer and Duchene is likely the only one available.

If Thornton cannot turn things around, the Sharks cannot win without an addition like Duchene.

 

[hockeyball]

I think the point would be that if star players are frequently traded for "below equal value", maybe what we define as equal value has to be reevaluated?

Quantity-for-quality trades seem to be the norm, especially when the team getting quantity is tanking...



Agreed. It seems that Islanders fans know they'd be selling low on him and rather just keep him. But, I figure if the actual team and/or Strome just wants to move on, the Sharks could buy cheap.



The Sharks could manage it, if they traded Wingels to someone. They'd probably need to manage with a 21-man roster, but the Barracuda are in the same city.



Sturm was a legit NHLer, Stuart was a struggling top-4 defenseman who some people (including Boston) thought had great upside. Primeau was a character fourth-liner thrown in to balance salary. Tierney is a very young bottom-6 center with obvious unteachable skills, coming off of a strong playoffs. Some people will look at his rookie season and say he will be able to produce more given more responsibility.



I think there is a pre-Plattner and post-Plattner DW. One has to admit that his decisions have been different since Plattner came on board. Funding the developmental team, better drafting, being super-active in the FA market, targeting European players, etc.



If Thornton cannot turn things around, the Sharks cannot win without an addition like Duchene.

Pen's were very similar to the Sharks this year last year. Great team top-to-bottom, tons of depth, lots of young players trying to break into the NHL, etc... and they STILL added Kessel and Schutlz and then wrecked us. If you don't think DW took notice of that, I think your nuts. The Sharks are going to make a big trade this year, you can count on it.

 

[Lebanezer]

So I've just discovered datarink.com and it seems like a solid advanced stats site. Definitely nothing too fancy but it actually loads and has possession stats for line combinations. Here are some thoughts:

1. Haley-Wingels-Karlsson isn't awful.
2a. Donskoi-Couture-Labanc is solid offensively but an absolute ****show defensively.
2b. Labanc is probably the reason for it being a ****show defensively; by score-adjusted 5v5 CA/60, Labanc is one of the absolute worst defensive forwards in the league.
2c. The line should be Donskoi-Couture-Boedker, according to stats.
3a. Hertl and Marleau are incredible together.
3b. Hertl is an incredible shot-suppressor.
3c. In limited time, Marleau-Hertl-Labanc was awesome.
4. Top-line Meier works.
4b. The only player that can drag down Joe Thornton is Joel Ward.

Obviously using solely possession numbers to make decisions is dumb, but I thought this was interesting and I think the most important takeaway here is that the current Donskoi-Couture-Labanc line is a complete ****show. They have a 43.6% score adjusted 5v5 CF% in 51 minutes, which is obviously horrific. Either swap Donskoi with Boedker, Labanc with Boedker, or Labanc with Ward. Donskoi-Couture-Boedker is good, Donskoi-Couture-Ward is good, and Ward-Couture-Labanc is good. Any of those will do. And I really like the idea of Marleau-Hertl-Labanc.




It's been mentioned on twitter. Nothing about a prospective trade, just that the Avs are scouting the Cuda.

That line was on for 3 of the Wild's 4 goals in the 3rd the other night, so that really didn't help them.

Also, Hertl is awesome.

 

[Alwalys]

Pen's were very similar to the Sharks this year last year. Great team top-to-bottom, tons of depth, lots of young players trying to break into the NHL, etc... and they STILL added Kessel and Schutlz and then wrecked us. If you don't think DW took notice of that, I think your nuts. The Sharks are going to make a big trade this year, you can count on it.

Kessel was an offseason trade and was looking like a total bust early on. Hertl is the only Kessel we are gonna get down the stretch.

 

[Timos Death Stare]

if we can't get duchene i think we should just stand pat. The only thing this team really "needs" (besides a better coach) is an elite scorer and duchene is likely the only one available.

jvr?

 

[Juxtaposer]

That line was on for 3 of the Wild's 4 goals in the 3rd the other night, so that really didn't help them.

Also, Hertl is awesome.

I'm not talking about +/- or goals against, I'm talking shot metrics leakier than Tierney by several magnitude. And Labanc is literally in the bottom 1% of the league's forwards in shot supression.

jvr?

"JVR" and "elite" don't belong in the same post. Plus, I have no desire to be hosed by the Leafs again.

 

[Alwalys]

I'm not talking about +/- or goals against, I'm talking shot metrics leakier than Tierney by several magnitude. And Labanc is literally in the bottom 1% of the league's forwards in shot supression.

That surprises me, I mean that doesn't align with the eye test. You don't see him making terrible plays or reads, mostly pretty good ones. But I guess that's why we have advanced stats.

 

[Celly4Celebrini]

Jesus, that's more than the Sharks gave up for Thornton. No thanks.

Well looks like we're never trading again as almost every notable deal would be "more than we gave up for Thornton"

 

[Groo]

Landy would be a great fit with the Sharks.
Too bad we don't have the horses to bring him in

 

[Sideshow Raheem]

Landy would be a great fit with the Sharks.
Too bad we don't have the horses to bring him in

We don't need another second liner. We need an elite scorer.

 

[Groo]

Landy would be perfect with the two Joe's

 

[do0glas]

When mueller is our only young d prospect i think its not enough.

Wonder if avs scouts were at the last two sj games. Might be why mueller was playing lol