Prospect Info: Sharks Prospect Info & Discussion Megathread XXI: "New, improved, and wayyyy too much info" Edition

[one2gamble]

Because they don't see themselves that way, first and foremost to them is winning or profits.

And this why there should be no agreements in place with the ahl.....

 

[coooldude]

And this why there should be no agreements in place with the ahl.....

If the player is called up, the player goes up... CHL-AHL agreement would be best for players and big club. That's why it's not in the interest of the CHL, except... if the NCAA presents an interesting path. Then the CHL-AHL-NHL pipeline is necessary and will be the preferred pathway.

So yeah, I am not sure why the CHL teams being short-sighted and greedy means there shouldn't be an AHL agreement, if anything the opposite.

 

[Makoshark]

Chernyshov to Barracuda

 

[one2gamble]

If the player is called up, the player goes up... CHL-AHL agreement would be best for players and big club. That's why it's not in the interest of the CHL, except... if the NCAA presents an interesting path. Then the CHL-AHL-NHL pipeline is necessary and will be the preferred pathway.

So yeah, I am not sure why the CHL teams being short-sighted and greedy means there shouldn't be an AHL agreement, if anything the opposite.

I'm specifically talking about the age restrictions. Teams should be able to move players around as they see fit.

 

[one2gamble]

Chernyshov to Barracuda

Doesn't say what or why though, need information

 

[TheBeard]

If he goes there you gotta figure Graf stays with the big club

 

[The Nemesis]

If the player is called up, the player goes up... CHL-AHL agreement would be best for players and big club. That's why it's not in the interest of the CHL, except... if the NCAA presents an interesting path. Then the CHL-AHL-NHL pipeline is necessary and will be the preferred pathway.

So yeah, I am not sure why the CHL teams being short-sighted and greedy means there shouldn't be an AHL agreement, if anything the opposite.

The CHL is a gate-driven league that relies on marquee players, especially name-brand prospects, to drive attention beyond the diehard fans of the sport and of CHL hockey in particular. Especially in markets where the existence of pro hockey creates a sort of smug "little brother"ing effect as fanbases of casual hockey fans think themselves too advanced and cultured to watch anything but the best of the best that the sport has to offer. And there simply aren't enough Connor Bedards coming through the ranks to draw people out to watch pre-draft players. Spoilers: the crowd size for a game with Landon DuPont or Gavin McKenna here with the Giants is not much different than a regular game. but if a big-time Canucks or Leafs or Oilers or Flames prospect rolls through you can definitely see a spike in attendance.

The NHL does not subsidize junior hockey enough to be able to offset the losses the league would take if suddenly teams decided that basically any 1st or 2nd or even maybe 3rd round pick that they've drafted would be better off in a pro environment than in junior.

And yeah, the NCAA now presents a somewhat enticing option, except it mostly doesn't for high-end players as you can't sign a contract and still go to college. So NHL teams can draft CHLers, sign them to an ELC, let it slide for a couple of years while they still play CHL hockey then bring them up to the AHL for their over-age season. The guys that are mostly looking to go to the NCAA right now are either ones who are disgruntled with their situation in the CHL or mid/late round picks trying to extend their pro auditions for a couple more years because they haven't earned a contract yet (one of the first NCAA commits out of the WHL was Giants forward Connor Levis, a Winnipeg 7th rounder a couple of years ago who's been good but not good enough to get signed. He's in his age-20 season right now so this is his last kick at the WHL can and a couple of years at Bowling Green will give him the chance to maybe get some more scouting eyeballs that they wouldn't get if they cashed in their CHL scholarship program credit to go to a Canadian university, while also considering actually using the schooling option to get a degree if hockey isn't in the cards.

I get why the suggestion gets made, because usually it's coming from people who wouldn't watch a drop of amateur hockey except where it pertains to scouting pro prospects so the actual concern has absolutely nothing to do with junior hockey itself, but this sort of "how dare this business run itself like a business instead of catering to the thing I want them to do" is kind of a blinkered, myopic way to look at it. I'll concede that nobody gets into the CHL ownership racket to make money since it's not really a profitable thing when you consider how frequently teams move around, but even as a hobby investment you still want to make sure you're not just taking a constant bath on it when it's not like most team ownership groups are NHL caliber owners with billions in their pockets who can write off a several-million-dollar loss every year as being like losing some change in the couch cushions. My team is owned by a semi-local restaurant franchisor, one of those Property Brothers goobers, and Michael freaking Buble. Deep pockets compared to the average person, but not "burning suitcases full of money on the regular for funsies" deep.

 

[coooldude]

The CHL is a gate-driven league that relies on marquee players, especially name-brand prospects, to drive attention beyond the diehard fans of the sport and of CHL hockey in particular. Especially in markets where the existence of pro hockey creates a sort of smug "little brother"ing effect as fanbases of casual hockey fans think themselves too advanced and cultured to watch anything but the best of the best that the sport has to offer. And there simply aren't enough Connor Bedards coming through the ranks to draw people out to watch pre-draft players. Spoilers: the crowd size for a game with Landon DuPont or Gavin McKenna here with the Giants is not much different than a regular game. but if a big-time Canucks or Leafs or Oilers or Flames prospect rolls through you can definitely see a spike in attendance.

The NHL does not subsidize junior hockey enough to be able to offset the losses the league would take if suddenly teams decided that basically any 1st or 2nd or even maybe 3rd round pick that they've drafted would be better off in a pro environment than in junior.

And yeah, the NCAA now presents a somewhat enticing option, except it mostly doesn't for high-end players as you can't sign a contract and still go to college. So NHL teams can draft CHLers, sign them to an ELC, let it slide for a couple of years while they still play CHL hockey then bring them up to the AHL for their over-age season. The guys that are mostly looking to go to the NCAA right now are either ones who are disgruntled with their situation in the CHL or mid/late round picks trying to extend their pro auditions for a couple more years because they haven't earned a contract yet (one of the first NCAA commits out of the WHL was Giants forward Connor Levis, a Winnipeg 7th rounder a couple of years ago who's been good but not good enough to get signed. He's in his age-20 season right now so this is his last kick at the WHL can and a couple of years at Bowling Green will give him the chance to maybe get some more scouting eyeballs that they wouldn't get if they cashed in their CHL scholarship program credit to go to a Canadian university, while also considering actually using the schooling option to get a degree if hockey isn't in the cards.

I get why the suggestion gets made, because usually it's coming from people who wouldn't watch a drop of amateur hockey except where it pertains to scouting pro prospects so the actual concern has absolutely nothing to do with junior hockey itself, but this sort of "how dare this business run itself like a business instead of catering to the thing I want them to do" is kind of a blinkered, myopic way to look at it. I'll concede that nobody gets into the CHL ownership racket to make money since it's not really a profitable thing when you consider how frequently teams move around, but even as a hobby investment you still want to make sure you're not just taking a constant bath on it when it's not like most team ownership groups are NHL caliber owners with billions in their pockets who can write off a several-million-dollar loss every year as being like losing some change in the couch cushions. My team is owned by a semi-local restaurant franchisor, one of those Property Brothers goobers, and Michael freaking Buble. Deep pockets compared to the average person, but not "burning suitcases full of money on the regular for funsies" deep.

A lot of well written and thought out arguments about the CHL, but if I'm reading correctly, you're arguing that nothing will change. You don't think the NCAA as a viable path post-CHL for players who have aged/skilled out of CHL is a threat to CHL that will drive a CHL-AHL transfer agreement? My argument is that the CHL may have no incentive to kowtow to the other leagues, but they kind of have no choice. In the future, Musty doesn't sign his ELC and goes to NCAA last season, and signs ELC when he's ready to go AHL/NHL. In this future world, he's playing on the 'Cuda or a top NCAA program right now. Instead, if CHL actually agrees to a xfer agreement, then he could be up and down from 'Cuda to Sudbury this year, meaning they don't get completely screwed and at least have a chance to retain talented players within one pipeline.

From the NHL clubs' POV, probably better to try to force an agreement and sign guys right away to ELC's but allow freer movement between CHL-AHL rather than have to expose themselves to the risk of an NCAA prospect forcing themselves into a trade.

I've been following the massive thread on this out of interest, and this is where I'm currently sitting. But if you see it differently, and as you implied the CHL owners basically say "f you, we're not changing," how do you see the situation evolving/not evolving in the future? I can't see NCAA change as only marginal.

I'm specifically talking about the age restrictions. Teams should be able to move players around as they see fit.

That's what the CHL-AHL xfer agreement would address. free movement regardless of age.

 

[Star Platinum]

 

[CaptainShark]

Knights with 5-1 and 6-4 wins.

Dickinson with a combined 1G, 2A, +3
Halttunen with 2A, +1

 

[The Nemesis]

Goal and am assist so far tonight for Roberts. It's 4-1 Giants over Kelowna in the early 3rd.

 

[The Nemesis]

Giants nearly blow a game for the 2nd night in a row, but pull it out in the end. Roberts finished with the 2 points and a penalty on a questionable tripping call.

The assist on a goal by Habs pick (right before Roberts was taken) Tyler Thorpe:





and then his goal:

 

[OrrNumber4]

At this point, hard to get too excited about Dickinson dominating the CHL. It's better than not, but the real test will be the AHL (I know people are high on him and think he can make the NHL right away, but that's very rare. Am I way off?).

 

[Barrie22]

At this point, hard to get too excited about Dickinson dominating the CHL. It's better than not, but the real test will be the AHL (I know people are high on him and think he can make the NHL right away, but that's very rare. Am I way off?).

But Dickinson won't ever see a game of ahl hockey if the Sharks progress his development when it should happen. Dickinson should not play in the OHL again after this season, which means his only option is the nhl.

 

[Kingpin794]

Chernyshov to Barracuda

Wonder if this is more of a paper transaction? Maybe he sees a game or two to see where he's at and then they determine if they want him in the AHL or OHL.

 

[OrrNumber4]

But Dickinson won't ever see a game of ahl hockey if the Sharks progress his development when it should happen. Dickinson should not play in the OHL again after this season, which means his only option is the nhl.

If he's not good enough for the NHL, what would be the point? It's a poor situation all around.

 

[Barrie22]

If he's not good enough for the NHL, what would be the point? It's a poor situation all around.

Because in the OHL he isn't really learning anything, in the nhl even if he is being caved in on a nightly basis he would be learning something atleast.

 

[Gecklund]

Musty with a goal and assist in the first period of his return.

 

[The Nemesis]

Musty with a goal and assist in the first period of his return.

Quentin Musty "f*** this team" revenge tour commences. Points fueled by pure spite.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Because in the OHL he isn't really learning anything, in the nhl even if he is being caved in on a nightly basis he would be learning something atleast.

Sure, it's an age-old debate.

I'm also not sure if there is space for Dickinson. If you squint, you can see one playing spot available, but if the Sharks make a big acquisition (trade or FA), draft Schaefer, or have a prospect like Thompson/Cagnoni/Furlong make a big jump, there it goes.

You also have to consider that this is probably the last year of "real" tanking; the Sharks will try to be good next year, which means icing the best D-corps possible.

 

[Juxtaposer]

Lol Musty going stupid in his first game back. Can't even imagine what's going through his head.

 

[MackAttack71]

2G and 2A for Musty right now

 

[Juxtaposer]

Disgusting. He could have about fifteen points half way through the game. Defense and goaltending optional for both teams today.

 

[Star Platinum]

At this point, hard to get too excited about Dickinson dominating the CHL. It's better than not, but the real test will be the AHL (I know people are high on him and think he can make the NHL right away, but that's very rare. Am I way off?).

It's less about him deserving to be in the NHL than it is about what's the best of two imperfect options. Same deal as Musty. He needs more of a challenge, but he would be going through the same stuff Smith is going through right now with a coach who tolerates endless mistakes from veterans, but benches young guys for one mistake (even if it's a mistake he has made multiple times, the same is true with the vets). So either he does that or he continues playing in a league he's too good for.

 

[OrrNumber4]

It's less about him deserving to be in the NHL than it is about what's the best of two imperfect options. Same deal as Musty. He needs more of a challenge, but he would be going through the same stuff Smith is going through right now with a coach who tolerates endless mistakes from veterans, but benches young guys for one mistake (even if it's a mistake he has made multiple times, the same is true with the vets). So either he does that or he continues playing in a league he's too good for.

There's a much higher chance of Musty being a top-12 forward for the Sharks (next season), right? The standard is lower...it is obvious to me that Smith is one of the top-12 forwards on the Sharks, even if his development may have been served better by getting some AHL games.