Confirmed with Link: Shanahan, Dubas, Keefe all staying

[mikeyz]

You can raise your own banner at home if you want.

He’s being sarcastic. Lol.

 

[egd27]

1. Because trading Matthews, Marner, or Nylander is extremely unlikely to make us better, and pretty likely to make us worse, and whatever your personal feelings on Tavares are, it doesn't really matter because there's zero chance he leaves Toronto.
2. Because it's not a real problem. It's an obstacle, but we've managed to build an excellent team despite the additional obstacle.

Clearly you are content with the 50% allocation going to 4 forwards. Enjoy the 2022-23 Regular Season

 

[Leaf Fans]

He’s being sarcastic. Lol.

Why is it that the only people who mention raising banners or planning parades are being "sarcastic"?

 

[mikeyz]

Why is it that the only people who mention raising banners or planning parades are being "sarcastic"?

That’s a good question. Lol.

 

[hotpaws]

You don't think Leaf fans would know our playoff series outcomes? You don't think Leaf fans would have read one of the 1,000 other times the same thing has been said in here over the past month? It may be interesting, but it wasn't relevant to my post, and losing is certainly not "fun" for a Leaf fan. I'm also not sure it "puts our post season failures in the proper context" either when we weren't even in the post season for most of those years.

The discussion centered around the idea that we had failed building because our cap allocation didn't allow us to allocate enough cap to depth and were doomed to failure as a result. My "fun fact" compared how much back-to-back Cup winner and current Stanley Cup finalist Tampa had spent on their bottom-six this year, and questioned if the same applied to them.

It means the bottom-six players with the most GP for the team.

What i think is our fans know of our drought but some/many didn't know we were one of only two teams , the other being Seatle , who haven't won a playoff series in the cap era , so yes our drought needed to be put in perspective so we can learn from past failures and demand better

you seem to enjoy every season that ends with a quick exist since your on here telling everyone how great our team is and how successful our season was

as far as your fun fact , fans discussed how much we spent on 4 forwards which you ignored and not just how much was spent on the bottom 6 , also are they the bottom 6 or did you just take the 6 lowest payroll forwards regardless of where they play in the lineup ?

and at the end of the day who are you to decide what can or can't be discussed on this board ?

 

[Dekes For Days]

you seem to enjoy every season that ends with a quick exist

I assume you mean "exit", and no, I'd much rather win the cup. That doesn't mean we can't properly discuss what happened.

as far as your fun fact , fans discussed how much we spent on 4 forwards which you ignored and not just how much was spent on the bottom 6

Actually, both were discussed, and I addressed both. You responded to my post addressing the bottom-six, and addressed neither.

also are they the bottom 6 or did you just take the 6 lowest payroll forwards regardless of where they play in the lineup ?

They were the bottom sixes based on where they most often played in the lineup.

and at the end of the day who are you to decide what can or can't be discussed on this board ?

You can discuss whatever you want on this board, but I'd appreciate if you stick to the topic if you're going to specifically reply to me.

 

[Racer88]

It affected Tampa what are you talking about? Tampa lost an entire line due to the flat cap. They draft and trade so well that you forget.

They also used a loophole but their cap structure is pretty similar to ours. They got lucky they could circumvent the cap the one year using LTIR

Maybe so but it looks like Tampa is going to win their 3 cup in a row so did it really affect them.
their cap structure is nothing like ours. 50% of their cap is spread out among star forward, star goalie and stud Dman plus a couple of other good players.
our 50% is spent on 4 forward while our goaltending is basically a bargain basement number 1 and an often injured number 2 that was awful when he did play
The only thing I agree with is that they draft and trade so well………and we do not

 

[rocketman588]

It affected Tampa what are you talking about? Tampa lost an entire line due to the flat cap. They draft and trade so well that you forget.

They also used a loophole but their cap structure is pretty similar to ours. They got lucky they could circumvent the cap the one year using LTIR

I mean they lost an entire line and are still in the cup finals so I would say that they would have figured it out.

We use just as many loopholes and get nowhere.

No one shuffles people up and down between the minors and the NHL and then waives others for the same reason like we do. Additionally Tampa had the depth to make that work and still make the playoffs.

Say we lose Marner for the year and replace with no one we're pretty screwed

 

[francis246]

I mean they lost an entire line and are still in the cup finals so I would say that they would have figured it out.

We use just as many loopholes and get nowhere.

No one shuffles people up and down between the minors and the NHL and then waives others for the same reason like we do. Additionally Tampa had the depth to make that work and still make the playoffs.

Say we lose Marner for the year and replace with no one we're pretty screwed

Right that is exactly my point. Tampa does a better job at getting depth players. That is the key difference. The cap going to the forwards isn’t an issue because we always have enough money to sign guys for our bottom six. But we just keep missing the mark and investing in the wrong guys. Also Tampa is able to sustain success year after year because they take advantage of players on ELC’s. We need to graduate our guys and stop signing older useless players in UFA.

Colorado is built very similarly to us and they will have most of their money tied up in forwards as well in the next two years. But their depth guys and ELC guys play a lot of key minutes. We need guys like Robertson, Steeves, Holmberg to step in. We need Sandin and Liljegren to take another step. Sign younger more effective bargain deals like Bunting. Our Pro scouting department needs to really go to work this summer.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Every team in the league is dealing with the flat cap

How many have put 50% on 4 forwards? We have 3 of the top highest earners in the league it doesn't have to do with the flat cap it's us mismanaging the cap before it became flat

The part that kills me about the flat cap is that you're not stuck. You can do something about it...trade someone...you can say that it might have worked in a non flat cap world...but it is what it is. So are we supposed to just say covid killed our team and we can't do anything about it? Seriously....Dekes just keeps saying the same thing...we KNOW...it's a flat cap that ruined Duby's plans...but you can fight and change things around...adapt.

The team plays like the management of this team. They have a hard time adapting when things get figured out on them. The PP...the PK...its like if it doesn't go exactly as planned...we just give up.

 

[Dekes For Days]

The part that kills me about the flat cap is that you're not stuck. You can do something about it...trade someone...you can say that it might have worked in a non flat cap world...but it is what it is. So are we supposed to just say covid killed our team and we can't do anything about it? Seriously....Dekes just keeps saying the same thing...we KNOW...it's a flat cap that ruined Duby's plans...but you can fight and change things around...adapt.

Of course you don't just say covid killed our team and we can't do anything about it. Covid didn't kill our team. It created an additional obstacle, but it's still very possible to build around it, and we largely have maneuvered and adapted around it extremely well to create an excellent team. The issue is that some are so consumed by thinking a trade is a necessity when it's not. Trading Matthews, Marner, or Nylander is extremely unlikely to make us better, and pretty likely to make us worse, and whatever your personal feelings on Tavares are, it doesn't really matter because there's zero chance he leaves Toronto.

 

[hamzarocks]

Of course you don't just say covid killed our team and we can't do anything about it. Covid didn't kill our team. It created an additional obstacle, but it's still very possible to build around it, and we largely have maneuvered and adapted around it extremely well to create an excellent team. The issue is that some are so consumed by thinking a trade is a necessity when it's not. Trading Matthews, Marner, or Nylander is extremely unlikely to make us better, and pretty likely to make us worse, and whatever your personal feelings on Tavares are, it doesn't really matter because there's zero chance he leaves Toronto.

"Trading Matthews..." onward part of your post is nothing but your personal feeling. Nothing suggests we won't be a better team by shaking the core and reallocating to a different core-level player.

The maximum capacity of the big 4 is or die game of the 1st round. They've shown that over 4-year sample size. They're nearing half a decade together and they don't know how to win a series yet.

You mistake them as elite players, when in the playoffs they have the below production:

AM : 26 pts in 26 games (good production but not elite like a Kuch, Mack, Mcdavid, etc)
MM: 20 in 26 games (Prime Joe Thornton-level playoff failure so far)
WN: 22 in 26 games (the best production relative to the level of player he is)
JT: 14 pts in 19 games (absolutely horrific production for a 2C, let alone an 11M supposed superstar)

The big 4 have in totality underperformed greatly in the 4 years they've been here.

We need game-breaking play and production from them.

Engvall/kampf/kerfoot/kase/mikheyev etc., won't be winning us playoff games, they won't be scoring. Its not the big 4 to show up and play like superstars.

They have failed to do so for over 4 years. They can't solve goaltenders, defenses, and penalty kills. It's 100% on them to figure things out and win the bare minimum of a round. The core has been an absolute failure and will go down as one of the worse cores for a contender (worse than the Sharks, the 2010 Rangers, the 90s hawks etc when discussed moving forward league-wide if they don't accomplish anything in the next two years

They haven't shown anything to make them worth nearly 50% of the team's cap.

 

[andora]

"Trading Matthews..." onward part of your post is nothing but your personal feeling. Nothing suggests we won't be a better team by shaking the core and reallocating to a different core-level player.

The maximum capacity of the big 4 is or die game of the 1st round. They've shown that over 4-year sample size. They're nearing half a decade together and they don't know how to win a series yet.

You mistake them as elite players, when in the playoffs they have the below production:

AM : 26 pts in 26 games (good production but not elite like a Kuch, Mack, Mcdavid, etc)
MM: 20 in 26 games (Prime Joe Thornton-level playoff failure so far)
WN: 22 in 26 games (the best production relative to the level of player he is)
JT: 14 pts in 19 games (absolutely horrific production for a 2C, let alone an 11M supposed superstar)

The big 4 have in totality underperformed greatly in the 4 years they've been here.

We need game-breaking play and production from them.

Engvall/kampf/kerfoot/kase/mikheyev etc., won't be winning us playoff games, they won't be scoring. Its not the big 4 to show up and play like superstars.

They have failed to do so for over 4 years. They can't solve goaltenders, defenses, and penalty kills. It's 100% on them to figure things out and win the bare minimum of a round. The core has been an absolute failure and will go down as one of the worse cores for a contender (worse than the Sharks, the 2010 Rangers, the 90s hawks etc when discussed moving forward league-wide if they don't accomplish anything in the next two years

They haven't shown anything to make them worth nearly 50% of the team's cap.

This made me think.. tavares looked ok in round 1 .. actually i was pleasantly surprised. Then you say he is making 11 million and i am pleasantly surprised he played well. That sounds kind of alarming.

And just for a pointless pleasure what does 11 million dollars buy you on tampa

Paul 750000
Hagel 1500000
Colton 1125000
Cernak 3000000
Cirelli 4800000

Ok so i am 175K over but

 

[rocketman588]

The part that kills me about the flat cap is that you're not stuck. You can do something about it...trade someone...you can say that it might have worked in a non flat cap world...but it is what it is. So are we supposed to just say covid killed our team and we can't do anything about it? Seriously....Dekes just keeps saying the same thing...we KNOW...it's a flat cap that ruined Duby's plans...but you can fight and change things around...adapt.

The team plays like the management of this team. They have a hard time adapting when things get figured out on them. The PP...the PK...its like if it doesn't go exactly as planned...we just give up.

There's a difference between can't do anything and won't do anything

We pay 3 guys like upper echelon assets why can we not move 1 of them for a huge package.

If the devils wouldn't do something like hinscher and the 2 OA for marner or mrazek and willy for blackwood and a pick or something then we're obviously way over valuing them.

Both open up cap space and get in pieces that help and that's just from one pretty shitty team lol.

If we were actually a progressive thinking organization we'd open cap space while solving at least one of our issues by trading willy or Marner. We're going to have to trade willy next year anyways

We refuse to do so for whatever reason.

 

[rocketman588]

The part that kills me about the flat cap is that you're not stuck. You can do something about it...trade someone...you can say that it might have worked in a non flat cap world...but it is what it is. So are we supposed to just say covid killed our team and we can't do anything about it? Seriously....Dekes just keeps saying the same thing...we KNOW...it's a flat cap that ruined Duby's plans...but you can fight and change things around...adapt.

The team plays like the management of this team. They have a hard time adapting when things get figured out on them. The PP...the PK...its like if it doesn't go exactly as planned...we just give up.

Even though it's a pretty solid deal we also just gave ourself less cap flexibility with the Riley deal.

We have 60 mil right now invested in 7 players and a back up goalie and are likely to have possibly only our other goal tender be on an elc.

 

[Felix the Cat Potvin]

Of course you don't just say covid killed our team and we can't do anything about it. Covid didn't kill our team. It created an additional obstacle, but it's still very possible to build around it, and we largely have maneuvered and adapted around it extremely well to create an excellent team. The issue is that some are so consumed by thinking a trade is a necessity when it's not. Trading Matthews, Marner, or Nylander is extremely unlikely to make us better, and pretty likely to make us worse, and whatever your personal feelings on Tavares are, it doesn't really matter because there's zero chance he leaves Toronto.

You seem to evaluate "better" solely on paper, just like Dubas plugging in his roster into EA sports and marveling at the overall rating.

St. Louis traded away TJ Oshie for lesser players before they won a Cup. Tampa Bay traded away JT Miller before they won a Cup. This year, the Rangers traded away Buchnevich for lesser players and went to the third round. All those players are equivalents to Nylander, and all those trades made their teams "worse" on paper, but more importantly, they helped balance those rosters, giving each team more ways to win.

The problem with the Leafs is they only have one way to win: offence. They are one-dimensional, and thus easy playoff outs every year, as teams force them to try to win another way, and they simply don't have the personnel nor the will nor the coaching to adapt. Winning is rarely the result of a steady development curve, but almost always requires a seismic shift in a team's playing style and philosophy (e.g. Washington with Trotz). The problem is Dubas doesn't have the maturity to admit he was wrong.

 

[Dekes For Days]

"Trading Matthews..." onward part of your post is nothing but your personal feeling.

History has shown us that trading young star players usually doesn't work out well for the team trading them. There's also no purpose. We've been able to effectively address the other areas of the team without trading them. The only real question mark is goaltending, and that's not going to be solved by trading one of our core forwards or throwing money at it.

It's an unnecessary risk with significant potential consequences but limited potential upside.

 

[Dekes For Days]

St. Louis traded away TJ Oshie for lesser players before they won a Cup. Tampa Bay traded away JT Miller before they won a Cup. This year, the Rangers traded away Buchnevich for lesser players and went to the third round. All those players are equivalents to Nylander, and all those trades made their teams "worse" on paper, but more importantly, they helped balance those rosters

Lmao.

1. Oshie, Miller, and Buchnevich were not equivalents to Nylander. I can't believe somebody could say that with a straight face. That's more equivalent to us trading away Kadri.
2. Those players were not traded away to "balance the rosters".
3. Trading away those players didn't make those teams better. They were largely traded out of necessity.

The problem with the Leafs is they only have one way to win: offence. They are one-dimensional

That is false. The Leafs were a very good defensive team this year.

and thus easy playoff outs every year

They literally just gave a dynasty team their biggest challenge in 3 years. Doesn't sound that easy.

Winning is rarely the result of a steady development curve, but almost always requires a seismic shift in a team's playing style and philosophy (e.g. Washington with Trotz)

That's not true at all. For the record, Washington won in Trotz's 4th year with the club.

 

[Felix the Cat Potvin]

Lmao.

1. Oshie, Miller, and Buchnevich were not equivalents to Nylander. I can't believe somebody could say that with a straight face. That's more equivalent to us trading away Kadri.
2. Those players were not traded away to "balance the rosters".
3. Trading away those players didn't make those teams better. They were largely traded out of necessity.

That is false. The Leafs were a very good defensive team this year.

They literally just gave a dynasty team their biggest challenge in 3 years. Doesn't sound that easy.

That's not true at all. For the record, Washington won in Trotz's 4th year with the club.

Oshie and Buchnevich were both part of the forward cores for their respective teams, and had similar roles to Nylander. Miller just had a 100 point season so yes, you're right, perhaps he's too good of a player to be a comparable for Nylander.

You're either lying or misremembering when you say they "were not traded away to balance the rosters." Oshie was dealt for Brouwer in a clear attempt to make the Blues a heavier team and send a message to the core, a philosophical shift that eventually paid off in their first Cup win. There was no "necessity" there; they didn't even save much in cap space. They lost the trade on paper, but ultimately won the war, while you seem content to win trades on paper, and the war is irrelevant. The Buchnevich trade was a clear reaction to Tom Wilson, and like the Blues trade, part of a philosophical shift toward a heavier roster, which paid off for them in spades this post-season. Miller was traded for a first that eventually became Blake Coleman, an integral role player for Tampa.

See also Pittsburgh dealing a PPG James Neal for a 50 point Patric Hornqvist prior to winning their Cup. Pretty much every recent Cup winner has made a deal like this, so it's amusing you're trying to deny the phenomenon.

 

[Bomber0104]

Teams that haven't won rounds previously can and have won the cup before, for the record.

At about a rate of maybe 1 for every 50.

Those are great odds you're betting in favor of, ya think?

Loser, never-win odds.

Good on ya for thinking what literally everyone else does not think but I guess that's what you have to do to support the Dubas Leafs.

Think the unthinkable and argue yourself into a corner on it...

Exhausting.

 

[Bomber0104]

You seem to evaluate "better" solely on paper, just like Dubas plugging in his roster into EA sports and marveling at the overall rating.

St. Louis traded away TJ Oshie for lesser players before they won a Cup. Tampa Bay traded away JT Miller before they won a Cup. This year, the Rangers traded away Buchnevich for lesser players and went to the third round. All those players are equivalents to Nylander, and all those trades made their teams "worse" on paper, but more importantly, they helped balance those rosters, giving each team more ways to win.

The problem with the Leafs is they only have one way to win: offence. They are one-dimensional, and thus easy playoff outs every year, as teams force them to try to win another way, and they simply don't have the personnel nor the will nor the coaching to adapt. Winning is rarely the result of a steady development curve, but almost always requires a seismic shift in a team's playing style and philosophy (e.g. Washington with Trotz). The problem is Dubas doesn't have the maturity to admit he was wrong.

Golden post.

Welcome to HFBoards.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Oshie and Buchnevich were both part of the forward cores for their respective teams, and had similar roles to Nylander. Miller just had a 100 point season

Oshie, Buchnevich, and Miller were not on the level of Nylander when they were traded, and none of those trades led to whatever level of success those teams had. Miller was not coming off a 100 point season. He was coming off a 47 point season, and was a secondary piece.

Oshie was dealt for Brouwer in a clear attempt to make the Blues a heavier team and send a message to the core, a philosophical shift that eventually paid off in their first Cup win.

Oshie was traded away 4 years before they won the cup. Brouwer was only there one year and then left in UFA. They had literally nothing from that trade when they won. In fact, Oshie went on to score 21 points in 24 playoff games and help Washington win the cup.

The Buchnevich trade was a clear reaction to Tom Wilson, and like the Blues trade, part of a philosophical shift toward a heavier roster, which paid off for them in spades this post-season.

The Buchnevich trade was more a reaction to their upcoming cap crunch, and it was a bad trade. The Buchnevich trade didn't make them better. Having a "heavier roster" didn't make them better. Fluking into a franchise goalie in the 4th round a decade ago and having them put up one of the best seasons by a goaltender in the cap era made them better. And they still did worse than us against Tampa and barely got by two teams using their backups and 3rd stringers in said post-season.

See also Pittsburgh dealing a PPG James Neal for a 50 point Patric Hornqvist prior to winning their Cup.

That was a bad deal that set them back. They immediately went from a top team to a wild card team that barely squeaked into the playoffs and lost in 5 games in the 1st round. If any trade led to their cups, it was going the opposite direction and acquiring Kessel the next offseason, not Hornqvist.

Pretty much every recent Cup winner has made a deal like this

Pretty much every recent cup winner has made a deal like this because you're just pointing to random trades made within a half decade of a team winning or being moderately successful, and then arbitrarily attributing that success to it and somehow claiming it means we need to trade Nylander. Most teams in the league have a trade that would qualify, including the Leafs with Kadri.

 

[mikeyz]

What i think is our fans know of our drought but some/many didn't know we were one of only two teams , the other being Seatle , who haven't won a playoff series in the cap era , so yes our drought needed to be put in perspective so we can learn from past failures and demand better

you seem to enjoy every season that ends with a quick exist since your on here telling everyone how great our team is and how successful our season was

as far as your fun fact , fans discussed how much we spent on 4 forwards which you ignored and not just how much was spent on the bottom 6 , also are they the bottom 6 or did you just take the 6 lowest payroll forwards regardless of where they play in the lineup ?

and at the end of the day who are you to decide what can or can't be discussed on this board ?

I don't know what he said because he's on my ignore list. And from your post right here, I am so glad that I did. Lol.

"This is false, that is not true at all, lmao"

Such well-thought out convincing arguments and reasoning...

You're basically the debate-equivalent of the Leafs against the Habs with a 3-1 series lead.

That's probably generous too.



At about a rate of maybe 1 for every 50.

Those are great odds you're betting in favor of, ya think?

Loser, never-win odds.

Good on ya for thinking what literally everyone else does not think but I guess that's what you have to do to support the Dubas Leafs.

Think the unthinkable and argue yourself into a corner on it...

Exhausting.

Let me guess. Dekes for Days is who you're talking to here? I can't see his posts because he's on my ignore list. Lol.

 

[Bomber0104]

I don't know what he said because he's on my ignore list. And from your post right here, I am so glad that I did. Lol.


Let me guess. Dekes for Days is who you're talking to here? I can't see his posts because he's on my ignore list. Lol.

Ignoring is a cop-out.

Instead address the wide-open weird views such as why we should believe a team that hasn't won a single playoff round in modern times can be considered a Cup-contender.

How many teams have gone from zero playoff success to the Cup?

This should be a very straight-forward, open and shut case right?

No.

"It's been done" maybe once in the hundreds of times 16 teams enter the playoffs.

Such a weird and evidently absurd viewpoint.

But again, these are the types of positions and views someone who unabashedly endorses for the Leafs, has to take.

Regardless of fact, statistics/history, or just plain common-sense.

 

[Bomber0104]

That was a bad deal that set them back.

Hornqvist won two back-to-back Cups as an absolute top-six force with the Penguins, what in the hell are you even talking about?

How could a trade that netted two Cup wins have "set them back"?!

Set them back from what exactly?

Winning the Stanley Cup?

They won two, back-to-back

You are literally on a world of your own.