Confirmed with Link: Shanahan, Dubas, Keefe all staying

[Bomber0104]

No, we didn’t outplay Tampa Bay and they weren’t lucky to beat the Leafs. We did performed a lot better than other NHL teams in the first 3 rounds and mopped the floor with them in individual games and put ourselves into a position to knock them off but couldn’t get the job done.

Thank you @Stephen

Very good hockey-mind and thinker.

 

[Bomber0104]

Who cares how we win? Whether it's through other teams slowing down or not

Washington had to wait until the Pens slowed down and then took over in 2018. You think they care? Get it done however you can, it doesn't need to be pretty

You're looking so far ahead.

Leafs haven't won a single round yet.

You're thinking Cup?

 

[leafsfan5]

Are the Leafs getting stronger as team?

Seems we're always treading water each off-season trying to band-aid holes left by out-going players with no prospects ready when they should be by now..

I think they got stronger from 2021 to 2022, but I don't think we have a lot of room for growth here. We will essentially be a similar level team or slightly worse next season imo (unless we somehow deal for Gibson and he returns to his elite play, in which case things change A LOT)

But I think the East as a whole will be in a similar boat as us. Some teams will get considerably worse (Boston for one, probably WSH). Some will tread water (TB, CAR) and some will deal with cap problems (FLA). I don't see the potential for a lot of teams growing except maybe FLA figuring out how to play playoff hockey and the NYR kids improving.

You're looking so far ahead.

Leafs haven't won a single round yet.

You're thinking Cup?

Of course I'm thinking cup, if this team only wins a round next year it isn't good enough. This year wasn't good enough but for some reason the band is sticking together so they better do something big

 

[Bomber0104]

I think they got stronger from 2021 to 2022, but I don't think we have a lot of room for growth here. We will essentially be a similar level team or slightly worse next season imo (unless we somehow deal for Gibson and he returns to his elite play, in which case things change A LOT)

But I think the East as a whole will be in a similar boat as us. Some teams will get considerably worse (Boston for one, probably WSH). Some will tread water (TB, CAR) and some will deal with cap problems (FLA). I don't see the potential for a lot of teams growing except maybe FLA figuring out how to play playoff hockey and the NYR kids improving.


Of course I'm thinking cup, if this team only wins a round next year it isn't good enough. This year wasn't good enough but for some reason the band is sticking together so they better do something big

I imagine many teams whether in playoff position or not have prospects ready to go...

I haven't seen a situation like the Leafs are in now where we haven't seen a legitimate player break-in to the roster or at least threaten a real roster spot and make management think since maybe... Kapenen or Johnson?

That was a long time ago.

Last point...

You dont go from zero rounds to Cup overnight and for that reason there has to be an acknowledgement from management that something is obviously not quite working and needs to be changed.

They seem to think this perpetual loser is acutally a Cup winning team and only worthy of tweaking the tertiary pieces.

It is not.

I'm sorry but history dictates this..

 

[leafsfan5]

I imagine many teams whether in playoff position or not have prospects ready to go...

I haven't seen a situation like the Leafs are in now where we haven't seen a legitimate player break-in to the roster or at least threaten a real roster spot and make management think since maybe... Kapenen or Johnson?

That was a long time ago.

Last point...

You dont go from zero rounds to Cup overnight and for that reason there has to be an acknowledgement from management that something is obviously not quite working and needs to be changed.

They seem to think this perpetual loser is acutally a Cup winning team and only worthy of tweaking the tertiary pieces.

It is not.

I'm sorry but history dictates this..

The forward development has been a little barren recently, that's for sure. Waiting on the likes of Robertson and Knies to make their way into the lineup, hopefully sometime next year

On defense we have Sandin who has made waves but is stuck behind some good LHD. Then we also have Liljergen who should already be a lock in our defensive core but Keefe loved Holl for some dumbass reason so he didn't play in the playoffs. One of the Leafs biggest issue is the lack of trust in their prospects imo, give them a shot they need the chances

The poor drafting is really reflected in 2015, 2016 and 2017. Those rebuild years we should have had the chance to pick up some great talent but it flopped. Outside of our first round picks in those 3 years just 2 players are now full-time NHLers (Dermott and Grundstrom). That's just not good enough

And I mean I agree on the management thing lol, I don't think there's enough accountability on the club. But they believe this team is good and worth keeping it together so a simple round 1 win doesn't move the needle a whole lot. Either make a run or you're done

 

[Leaf Fans]

I imagine many teams whether in playoff position or not have prospects ready to go...

I haven't seen a situation like the Leafs are in now where we haven't seen a legitimate player break-in to the roster or at least threaten a real roster spot and make management think since maybe... Kapenen or Johnson?

That was a long time ago.

Last point...

You dont go from zero rounds to Cup overnight and for that reason there has to be an acknowledgement from management that something is obviously not quite working and needs to be changed.

They seem to think this perpetual loser is acutally a Cup winning team and only worthy of tweaking the tertiary pieces.

It is not.

I'm sorry but history dictates this..

History doesn't dictate that at all. If any thing it is that change is inevitable.

 

[Bomber0104]

History doesn't dictate that at all. If any thing it is that change is inevitable.

Yeah I like the always-been-done odds versus the never-before-been-done odds.

Dubas, like you, seems to be betting on the most-improbable outcome to happen of all-time...

Going from perennial playoff-loser to winner overnight.

Team is a constant loser, yet no changes should be done.

The hubris is shining on full display for everyone to see.

 

[Leaf Fans]

Yeah I like the always-been-done odds versus the never-before-been-done odds.

Dubas, like you, seems to be betting on the most-improbable outcome to happen of all-time...

Going from perennial playoff-loser to winner overnight.

Team is a constant loser, yet no changes should be done.

The hubris is shining on full display for everyone to see.

I am not betting on anything nor am I defying any gods. I am not the least bit overconfident at all though I do have lofty expectations. Think changes have an will be done. You, like Eyore, can wallow in your pessimism.

 

[rocketman588]

You chose to respond to 3 words of my post, and you even got that wrong.

I said you need to use CH% when referring to the "no one over 10 million has won the cup" argument, because using fixed numbers is just dumb when the cap has gone up over the years.

If you had a player with 10 million in the first year of the cap being re-introduced he would have been taking up over 25% of the cap.



I don't want three of those players at the cap they are at, or Marleau, even if we didn't sign JT, the only player that is worth their contract is Kadri (and Kapanen but he has other issues).

What other team in the history of the game has taken up 50% of the cap with 4 forwards

Then when you go by cap % the money invested in such a small portion of the fw group is still asinine

 

[francis246]

Bottom 6 doesn't need more grit; it needs more purpose. Our 3rd line served a purpose, and I had no issue with our 3rd line that series. Sure, some more clutch offense would have been nice, but they did provide some clutch offense and they served their defense/shutdown purpose fairly well.

Our 4th line did nothing tangibly good. Sure, they provided some energy/gritty shifts here or there, but they were getting outplayed even against easy competition, didn't provide offense, didn't provide defense, couldn't chew up minutes for our top guys... Running around hitting guys for 8 minutes a night is not good enough in the playoffs.

In the grand scheme of things, a 4th line does not matter much. But if they pulled their weight even as much as the 3rd line did, but perhaps with more of an offensive focus, we win that series. We should have some guys who can provide PP value on there. Maybe some a guy who can PK reasonably well too (like a Kase). They don't need to be large or overly gritty, and they don't need to be amazing shutdown guys either, but they should be hungry any time they go out on the ice and they need to bring that hunger at both ends. I think it goes without saying that they actually need to be good players too.

That is a perfect definition. I think I just used the gritty word by default haha. But that’s exactly what I meant. Fast guys who can forecheck with purpose and contribute offensively.

 

[francis246]

I think they got stronger from 2021 to 2022, but I don't think we have a lot of room for growth here. We will essentially be a similar level team or slightly worse next season imo (unless we somehow deal for Gibson and he returns to his elite play, in which case things change A LOT)

But I think the East as a whole will be in a similar boat as us. Some teams will get considerably worse (Boston for one, probably WSH). Some will tread water (TB, CAR) and some will deal with cap problems (FLA). I don't see the potential for a lot of teams growing except maybe FLA figuring out how to play playoff hockey and the NYR kids improving.


Of course I'm thinking cup, if this team only wins a round next year it isn't good enough. This year wasn't good enough but for some reason the band is sticking together so they better do something big

Didn’t we say that last year after losing hyman, Bogosian and Andersen and we were even better this year than the year before?

I’d argue we are going to be better this year in terms of having a more balanced roster because I think you’re going to have to graduate guys from the Marlies who will be hungry. Joey Anderson, Alex Steeves, Nick Robertson will all challenge for spots. Maybe we sign some younger players for depth roles like Dylan Strome or bring back Kasperi Kapanen if both go unqualified

 

[Dekes For Days]

Putting Gio on the 1st unit PP was a smart move, I think. He has a much better shot than Rielly (and by shot I mean slapshot). And yes, they scored. But then Keefe puts Rielly right back on it the next PP. I guess there’s a fine line between a coach doing what is best for the team, or making sure he keeps his star players happy.

I don't think it had to do with "keeping his star players happy". I think it has to do with putting your core players in the situations to be difference makers, which is what you want 99% of the time. That's why they're your core players.

I don't think Giordano is really a better option than Rielly on the PP. I just think that PPs can benefit from a mix-up once in a while to get different looks and combinations, especially if you're struggling against an elite PK. But while I personally would have preferred that, that's easy to say with the benefit of hindsight knowing that what we did didn't work. We could have just as easily struggled with the alternative setup and everybody would be saying that Keefe cost us the series by going away from what made us the #1 PP in the league this year.

You have to be careful what you wish for, because I don't think any of us want to go back to the days of playing the likes of a broken down Marleau over Matthews in the 3rd period of game 7.

I guess timeline wasn’t the best word to use. And once again, there’s a fine line between being patient as opposed to waiting until it’s too late.

What's "too late"? Dubas isn't the reason we haven't won yet, and firing him isn't going to magically gift us the cup. If the GM is having a positive impact on the team and making logical moves, that's really all you want in any scenario. That's much rarer in this league than many realize. The issue seems to be that many people here want a blood sacrifice for losing, with no consideration for what exactly that changes, who exactly replaces him, how exactly it helps us moving forward, and what consequences can come from it. I realize that many fans are emotional and reactionary, but in the real world, there has to be more purpose to decisions like this than "we lost? BLAST IT INTO THE SUN!".

they took the 2x defending Cup champs to 7 games, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they will win at least a few rounds next season.

No matter what happened this year, we wouldn't be guaranteed to win at least a few rounds next year. There's no transferrable credits for past playoff wins. You're never guaranteed to win anything any year. There is no magic formula. The best you can do is put the best team you can out there.

Talking about who we lost to, and the how and why, isn't about being okay with losing. It's to counter the people who only seem capable of seeing the fact that we lost and the round, and want to make counterproductive moves as a result, because they refuse to acknowledge all of the valuable information and context that goes with it, that gives a much better picture of the quality of our team, what happened, and how far away from the cup we truly are.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I think they got stronger from 2021 to 2022, but I don't think we have a lot of room for growth here.

They did indeed get stronger from 2021 to 2022, despite claims of our imminent demise last offseason, by many of the same people claiming imminent demise this offseason. Improving from a 115 point-caliber team is certainly difficult, but there is still potential for improvement from a combination of internal development, goaltenders performing better, inserting prospects, and more signings like Bunting/Kampf.

But I think the East as a whole will be in a similar boat as us.

Yeah, most if not all competitive teams in the East have a tougher road ahead just maintaining what they did this year, and many also spent a lot of their futures on this year.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Fun fact we’re 1 of 2 teams that haven’t won a series in the cap era

That has nothing to do with my post you quoted. That's disappointing but not a result of cap allocation (that we didn't even have for almost all of that time).

You dont go from zero rounds to Cup overnight

Teams that haven't won rounds previously can and have won the cup before, for the record.

 

[hotpaws]

That has nothing to do with my post you quoted. That's disappointing but not a result of cap allocation (that we didn't even have for almost all of that time).

of course it does , you were posting ''fun facts'' so i gave you a ''fun fact''

 

[Mess]

History doesn't dictate that at all. If any thing it is that change is inevitable.

If by change is inevitable and you mean Shanahan, Dubas, Keefe, then it would be hard to rebuttal that solid point you're making, if truly winning the playoffs is your desire and objective.

You had me at inevitable.

 

[Dekes For Days]

you were posting ''fun facts'' so i gave you a ''fun fact''

I'm not sure what a Leaf fan would find "fun" about your "fact", or why you think people are unaware of your "fact", but regardless, the post you responded to was about cap allocation, not about how many playoff series the team has won in the cap era.

 

[hotpaws]

I'm not sure what a Leaf fan would find "fun" about your "fact", or why you think people are unaware of your "fact", but regardless, the post you responded to was about cap allocation, not about how many playoff series the team has won in the cap era.

it's has exactly the same amount of ''fun'' as your post which was about ''fun facts''

 

[Dekes For Days]

it's has exactly the same amount of ''fun'' as your post which was about ''fun facts''

My fact was an interesting tidbit that many are likely unaware of, that was relevant to the discussion on cap allocation. Your response was something that no Leaf fan would find "fun", and not only was it unrelated to the post you quoted, it's something every Leaf fan in existence was aware of even before it was repeated 1,000 times in this and every thread. But you do you.

 

[Leaf Fans]

If by change is inevitable and you mean Shanahan, Dubas, Keefe, then it would be hard to rebuttal that solid point you're making, if winning the playoffs is your desire.

You had me at inevitable.

I still have you at inevitable. All to those things will change.

 

[Hoglund4MvP]

Of course the great genius has to make bad goalie decision after bad goalie decision before they finally look into making a more modern goalie department. Same genius modern GM whose supposed to be ahead of the curve when it comes to modern techniques.

Then he will get credit for learning from his mistakes After damage already done. This isn't a core you allow a GM to learn on the fly with. This is supposed to be a 2-3x in a row cup winning core going to waste and it's sad to see people okay with that.

 

[francis246]

What other team in the history of the game has taken up 50% of the cap with 4 forwards

Then when you go by cap % the money invested in such a small portion of the fw group is still asinine

No other teams have done it because we have never encountered a flat cap and the amount of money paid to players until recently. If you think for a second that the leafs will find themselves to be the only team that uses this model you are delusional. Calgary is about to be the next team that does and it’s not going to stop with them as salary’s increase. There are just a lot more forwards than defenseman and goalies

 

[Nineteen67]

Of course the great genius has to make bad goalie decision after bad goalie decision before they finally look into making a more modern goalie department. Same genius modern GM whose supposed to be ahead of the curve when it comes to modern techniques.

Then he will get credit for learning from his mistakes After damage already done. This isn't a core you allow a GM to learn on the fly with. This is supposed to be a 2-3x in a row cup winning core going to waste and it's sad to see people okay with that.

What made you think this core should be winning multiple Cups?
Matthews is the center piece of the core and his history doesn’t suggest he’d be a shoe in to win the Cup.

 

[hotpaws]

My fact was an interesting tidbit that many are likely unaware of, that was relevant to the discussion on cap allocation. Your response was something that no Leaf fan would find "fun", and not only was it unrelated to the post you quoted, it's something every Leaf fan in existence was aware of even before it was repeated 1,000 times in this and every thread. But you do you.

far from all Leaf fans were aware of this fact and while the Dubas supporters might not find it interesting i'm sure Leafs fans would appreciate putting our post season failures in the proper context

as for your ''fun fact'' , why would Leaf fans care how much cap the Bolts spent on their ''primary'' bottom 6 and who the hell knows what you mean by ''primary'' , lol

 

[Leaf Fans]

far from all Leaf fans were aware of this fact and while the Dubas supporters might not find it interesting i'm sure Leafs fans would appreciate putting our post season failures in the proper context

as for your ''fun fact'' , why Leaf fans care how much cap the Bolts spent on their ''primary'' bottom 6 and who the hell knows what you mean by ''primary'' , lol

True. I didn't care too much. But at least the facts were in fact, fun.