Confirmed with Link: Shanahan, Dubas, Keefe all staying

[Shanty]

What the people outraged by this news fail to realize is that change doesn't necessary equal progress. People are angry with the outcome and want to see blood shed. That's it. I get it, but it's dumb.

I think of all the bottom-dwelling NFL franchises that swap out head coaches every two years and then wonder why they're stuck in an endless cycle of mediocrity.

Give the reigns to a management team you have faith in and give them the resources, the autonomy, and the time to execute the vision. If you change horses midstream when things go sideways, you never have a chance.

(And I say this as someone who sees the good and the bad in Dubas's track record and who just wants the Leafs to win.)

What do you think you're doing in here with your reasonable, level-headed take?

You go hang out somewhere else until you can develop a properly vindictive and self-aggrandizing sermon about the end of times in Leaf land.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Lou Lam wouldnt be stupid to offer what Nylander Tavares Rielly Marner suckered Dufas into paying them.

Lou offered JT an 8 year, $88 million deal to stay with the Islanders.

So, swing and a miss.

 

[zeke]

Zeke of course happy and can tell us next season how great we are because to some results don't matter but stats do.

Best record in franchise history bub.

 

[Gary Nylund]

So you wanted examples of mismanagement from Dubas and when some of them were pointed out you couldn’t be bothered to respond to those moves. You hide behind lots of posters here liked those moves…..No, they didn’t just the same Dubas supporters who thumbs up every move he makes. There was almost no one on this board that liked the Foligno deal at last years deadline.

The D is better under Dubas but the forwards are much worse and he has spent many window years and assets to have the team in the same spot it was handed to him.

I didn't ask for examples of anything. Hard to have a discussion if you begin with a lie.

I did respond.

Most people liked the Foligno deal so you're wrong about that.

The D is better and how in the hell are the forwards worse?

Same spot - that's one way of looking at it, at bit on the myopic side though IMO. The D went from bottom 10 in the league to top 5 so I'd argue we're better positioned for the future.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Best record in franchise history bub.

Most number of consecutive 1st round exits in sports history bub.

 

[Gallagbi]

About 10 years ago the media were vicious critics of MLSE. Today there's as many MLSE propagandists as critics. This is how they think they can get away with shuffling some deck chairs with another summer of league minimum hires.

The vitriol from the media is what made us so successful 10 years ago too.

 

[Sniper99]

Lou offered JT an 8 year, $88 million deal to stay with the Islanders.

So, swing and a miss.

oooh you got me.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Anything is possible.

I'd like him to stay, I would like to have success.

I just have a different opinion on how we end up there

I would like Dubas, Shanny, Keefe, 88, JT, Kerfoot, Holl, Muzzin to depart this off-season

That's a lot though, realistically it should have been Keefe being fired today.

The rest today could have been misdirection, however most of the players above I would like to move on from. Change a lot of the team because they were either not good enough or we need to change over from past failures. Tavares is basically never moving, for better or for worse.

Saying they don't want to change for it to be lateral is even surprising. I don't necessarily mind change if it's change, get a player of 88's caliber but not have any of the baggage of today? Done. Or maybe they bring a little less production but make up for it in other areas? Sure. New blood isn't bad.



Bert, you're a really level headed guy. Would you not say Dubas has had ample time to implement his vision at this point? He's had his coach 3 years now. All the Lou "clean up" is surely gone now.

I'd say we're just about there at this point. It's why I think Dubas has one last kick at the can with this. But I also believe in GM's being able to learn from their mistakes and adapt. And I think we're seeing Dubas do that despite the failures. He is not afraid to make big moves. To me that means a lot in putting trust in him for another season.

He's changed the coach. He's changed the goaltending. He's re-built the blue line. He's re-assembled the team's depth. He's also rebuilt the prospect pool.

His last bullet is a core shakeup. If he does not do that this off-season, I have a hard time believing this group will be any more successful next year. That being said the deal has to make sense. Trading one of those big pieces is a trade that you cannot lose or undersell on.

 

[zeke]

Most number of consecutive 1st round exits in sports history bub.

Only needed to miss the playoffs to avoid that record.

 

[WTFMAN99]

I'd say we're just about there at this point. It's why I think Dubas has one last kick at the can with this. But I also believe in GM's being able to learn from their mistakes and adapt. And I think we're seeing Dubas do that despite the failures. He is not afraid to make big moves. To me that means a lot in putting trust in him for another season.

He's changed the coach. He's changed the goaltending. He's re-built the blue line. He's re-assembled the team's depth. He's also rebuilt the prospect pool.

His last bullet is a core shakeup. If he does not do that this off-season, I have a hard time believing this group will be any more successful next year. That being said the deal has to make sense. Trading one of those big pieces is a trade that you cannot lose or undersell on.

I feel like we're constantly correcting on his mistakes.

We're already talking about moving Muzzin after he just re-signed him

Mrazek already a disaster.

Had to get out of the Ritchie contract.

Only needed to miss the playoffs to avoid that record.

Man, that's really sad and a far cry from the chest thumping earlier this season.

They got to you too, I can tell.

 

[BertCorbeau]

oooh you got me.

Still a bit confused about Rielly ... $7.5 AAV for a low end #1 offensive d-man doesn't seem that bad to me at all.

 

[Gary Nylund]

What the people outraged by this news fail to realize is that change doesn't necessary equal progress. People are angry with the outcome and want to see blood shed. That's it. I get it, but it's dumb.

I think of all the bottom-dwelling NFL franchises that swap out head coaches every two years and then wonder why they're stuck in an endless cycle of mediocrity.

Give the reigns to a management team you have faith in and give them the resources, the autonomy, and the time to execute the vision. If you change horses midstream when things go sideways, you never have a chance.

(And I say this as someone who sees the good and the bad in Dubas's track record and who just wants the Leafs to win.)

Exactly. Imagine if some of these angry geniuses here had their way, we'd be on about our 4th set of GM/coach in the last 5 years and the roster/prospect pool would likely be in much worse shape that is in today.

 

[Stephen]

Dubas/Shanahan staying is an indication that MLSE is buying into whatever their year end comments are about the intentions of their off-season.

What those intentions are remain to be seen, so it's a bit early to say.

Keefe staying is a byproduct of Dubas staying. They could go hard after Trotz, but he'll have a lot of suitors so missing out on him could be tough.

TBH it's a bit refreshing to see a management group be given some rope to learn and adjust as they've gone to build and tweak their vision. Many teams give up before some GM's can really do that.

So I was just digging around and the 2021-22 Toronto Maple Leafs place 34th in most points in NHL history and 24th in most wins in a season, all time.

So if we did blow up the program it would actually be for the sins of the 2019-20 and 2020-21 teams more so than losing to the twice defending champions in the first round.

It's an unusual time and maybe not that satisfying if you really want a shakeup, but maybe running it back over and over in some form like this is actually what normal franchises do...

 

[Sniper99]

Still a bit confused about Rielly ... $7.5 AAV for a low end #1 offensive d-man doesn't seem that bad to me at all.

Doesnt play like hes worth 7.5 mill to me. Just my opinion.

 

[TheTechNoir]

so be it.

there had better be more than fringe player change.

they didn't sound too accountable -- "this team was well built and well coached". that means they blame the players.

Or, you know, another team that was well built and well coached managed to beat them in a 7 game series? There are 31 teams. Some of them are going to also be good. Not winning the cup every season doesn't = bad team.

So I was just digging around and the 2021-22 Toronto Maple Leafs place 34th in most points in NHL history and 24th in most wins in a season, all time.

So if we did blow up the program it would actually be for the sins of the 2019-20 and 2020-21 teams more so than losing to the twice defending champions in the first round.

It's an unusual time and maybe not that satisfying if you really want a shakeup, but maybe running it back over and over in some form like this is actually what normal franchises do...

Or you could do like Philly, and because of goaltending woes with a good playoff team, hire Bryz for a million years because he had a good stretch, trade Bob because of a playoff series, hire a bunch of bums to try to replace Pronger and keep competing for the cup instead of rebuilding, yada, yada, yada. Overeact your ass off and worsen your team, in other words. And yeah, blowing it up would be because of the 19-20, and 20-21 renditions, which were inferior to this team. Sounds... logical? But, I know, people misquoting Einstein saying something that isn't actually true regardless, applies or something. It's not like this happened with Yzerman in Detroit, or Ovie in Washington, or a ton of other contending teams.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I'd say we're just about there at this point. It's why I think Dubas has one last kick at the can with this. But I also believe in GM's being able to learn from their mistakes and adapt. And I think we're seeing Dubas do that despite the failures. He is not afraid to make big moves. To me that means a lot in putting trust in him for another season.

He's changed the coach. He's changed the goaltending. He's re-built the blue line. He's re-assembled the team's depth. He's also rebuilt the prospect pool.

His last bullet is a core shakeup. If he does not do that this off-season, I have a hard time believing this group will be any more successful next year. That being said the deal has to make sense. Trading one of those big pieces is a trade that you cannot lose or undersell on.

I don't think he needs to move a core piece unless it's in a trade for a #1 goalie, or to make cap room for a #1 goalie. We're obviously talking about Nylander here and he's played great for us the last two playoffs. If we can get the goalie we need without moving him then I'd be happy but we really need a goalie bad and if Nylander is the price we have to pay, I'd pay it.

He's under contract for only two more years as well and that's a factor. He's gonna cost a ton to resign, assuming he's even happy to stay here which I'm not certain about at all. Marner's a lock to want to stay here, Matthews isn't a lock but I think he's very likely to stay. Nylander though, he might want to test the market and get top dollar, he also might feel underappreciated here which would be understandable. Might not be a bad idea to move him now when his value is a LOT more then it will be a year from now.

 

[Stephen]

Lou Lam wouldnt be stupid to offer what Nylander Tavares Rielly Marner suckered Dufas into paying them.

I think your instinct might be right on this one...

But Lou Lam also spent $30 million 6 years of JG Pageau, and $36 million for 6 years of Brock Nelson, and $49 million for 7 years of Anders Lee and $20 million for 4 years of Kyle Palmieri to the tune of $135 million.

And he had to give away Devon Toews for basically nothing to make it all happen. But pre 2005? Give me Lou every day of the week.

 

[BertCorbeau]

I feel like we're constantly correcting on his mistakes.

We're already talking about moving Muzzin after he just re-signed him

Mrazek already a disaster.

Had to get out of the Ritchie contract.



Man, that's really sad and a far cry from the chest thumping earlier this season.

They got to you too, I can tell.

Ritchie was a bust but Dubas' was able to move that contract and bring him some defensive depth without really giving up much additional cost. I would consider that a wash. But a bad signing is a bad signing.

Then again look at Ritchie and how he did after the trade. I mean I don't know if you can fault Dubas for Ritchie collapsing under the pressure of this market.

Mrazek looks bad right now.

Muzzin was always going to decline especially towards the end of that contract but you can't deny his value to the team last year. Remains to be seen how his injury affected his season.

But there are a lot of signings being overlooked - Brodie, Bogosian, Kampf, Mikheyev, Spezza .. Kase looked really good before getting hurt.

I think he's good at finding cheap depth. Which is valuable.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Ritchie was a bust but Dubas' was able to move that contract and bring him some defensive depth without really giving up much additional cost. I would consider that a wash. But a bad signing is a bad signing.

Then again look at Ritchie and how he did after the trade. I mean I don't know if you can fault Dubas for Ritchie collapsing under the pressure of this market.

Mrazek looks bad right now.

Muzzin was always going to decline especially towards the end of that contract but you can't deny his value to the team last year. Remains to be seen how his injury affected his season.

But there are a lot of signings being overlooked - Brodie, Bogosian, Kampf, Mikheyev, Spezza .. Kase looked really good before getting hurt.

I think he's good at finding cheap depth. Which is valuable.

I question our system's ability to function with heavy hitting/forechecking types, even Babcock's too. Martin, Simmonds and Ritchie seem like they didn't fit. I don't know if Ritchie simply didn't work or bad fit.

I can easily say he's been good at unearthing cheap deals but wish he didn't put himself in the position to constantly have to do that every single off-season.

 

[Stephen]

I don't think he needs to move a core piece unless it's in a trade for a #1 goalie, or to make cap room for a #1 goalie. We're obviously talking about Nylander here and he's played great for us the last two playoffs. If we can get the goalie we need without moving him then I'd be happy but we really need a goalie bad and if Nylander is the price we have to pay, I'd pay it.

He's under contract for only two more years as well and that's a factor. He's gonna cost a ton to resign, assuming he's even happy to stay here which I'm not certain about at all. Marner's a lock to want to stay here, Matthews isn't a lock but I think he's very likely to stay. Nylander though, he might want to test the market and get top dollar, he also might feel underappreciated here which would be understandable. Might not be a bad idea to move him now when his value is a LOT more then it will be a year from now.

Nylander is double vulnerable because he's underpaid. This makes him easiest to trade and the delta on this contract and his next contract is the biggest question mark. In a video game world, you offload Tavares so you have a fortune to reinvest in the team through free agency and also have the cash to re-focus on a core of Matthews, Marner, Nylander and Rielly, which is still pretty young. More likely, that one extra year of JT will probably cost us Willie.

That said, if we are smart and at the right time traded Willie for the right futures to support Matthews and Marner on their next deals, it's still ok. Life goes on.

 

[Daisy Jane]

So Ovechkin was signed to a 13 year contract extension as an RFA, he's not going to UFA like Matthews. His 3rd year they made the playoffs and 4th year they won a round. He likely felt like there was some progress. We got to 1st round right away with Matthews and haven't done anything since.

and i'll be blunt. if Matthews put the team on his back, and was no doubt about it the guy in the playoffs - then sure I can see this argument fully. but he wasn't. Fairness he was injured for one playoffs [but you know my stance on that - if you are on the ice, it doesn't matter]. Matthews for a few series was part of the issue of why we lost just like everything else.

So if after his deal is up he wants to go to somewhere else, because he wants to win, or it's easier - then fine. go play somewhere where it's easier and you might win. and I won't shed a tear because I don't want people who don't want to be here. If you want to win, you be part of the solution and leave no doubt in people's minds that you did everything you could to do so. I can safely say that I don't think Matthew did that ever. I mean he'll say he did they all do bu can you say he did?

Quite frankly, I'll use Kessel as an example. alllll the issues I had with him. never once did I complain about how he performed in the playoffs. ever. even when he was injured, Phil found a way to generate offense. (I think if i recall correctly he's still a PPG playoff performer? or he was when he won the cups). And even when it was toxic soup here - he still didn't want to leave Toronto.

again the goal is to win the cup. I never once heard rumours of Ovechkin getting frustrated and wanted to leave because all they kept doing was meet Pittsburgh and lose every time the faced them. it's no more progress to keep making it to the 2nd round (or being able to get to the third) and no go anywhere past that - and making the 1st and losing because the goal is to win the cup. almost every time washington lost - they lost as division champs, presidents cup winners, the whole nine yards. making progress wasn't really on their agenda. and Ovie stayed because he wanted to win there. If matthews doesn't want to do that that's on him.

 

[BertCorbeau]

I question our system's ability to function with heavy hitting/forechecking types, even Babcock's too. Martin, Simmonds and Ritchie seem like they didn't fit. I don't know if Ritchie simply didn't work or bad fit.

I can easily say he's been good at unearthing cheap deals but wish he didn't put himself in the position to constantly have to do that every single off-season.

I agree. They need more Bunting types. Gritty puck hound pests that can handle playing physical in the corners.

To be successful in this system, forwards need to be able to skate. It's what guys like Engvall and Mikheyev are successful. They can wheel.

When the JT deal was signed, I was excited but I was also warning the long term cap implications. And here we are. It was the reason why I was not as keen on the deal. But you can't not be excited about having him.

 

[Nylanderthal]

Oh dear, guess I’m headed back under the rock I crawled out from under, be back next spring for a rinse and repeat no doubt……..

 

[WTFMAN99]

and i'll be blunt. if Matthews put the team on his back, and was no doubt about it the guy in the playoffs - then sure I can see this argument fully. but he wasn't. Fairness he was injured for one playoffs [but you know my stance on that - if you are on the ice, it doesn't matter]. Matthews for a few series was part of the issue of why we lost just like everything else.

So if after his deal is up he wants to go to somewhere else, because he wants to win, or it's easier - then fine. go play somewhere where it's easier and you might win. and I won't shed a tear because I don't want people who don't want to be here. If you want to win, you be part of the solution and leave no doubt in people's minds that you did everything you could to do so. I can safely say that I don't think Matthew did that ever. I mean he'll say he did they all do bu can you say he did?

Quite frankly, I'll use Kessel as an example. alllll the issues I had with him. never once did I complain about how he performed in the playoffs. ever. even when he was injured, Phil found a way to generate offense. (I think if i recall correctly he's still a PPG playoff performer? or he was when he won the cups). And even when it was toxic soup here - he still didn't want to leave Toronto.

again the goal is to win the cup. I never once heard rumours of Ovechkin getting frustrated and wanted to leave because all they kept doing was meet Pittsburgh and lose every time the faced them. it's no more progress to keep making it to the 2nd round (or being able to get to the third) and no go anywhere past that - and making the 1st and losing because the goal is to win the cup. almost every time washington lost - they lost as division champs, presidents cup winners, the whole nine yards. making progress wasn't really on their agenda. and Ovie stayed because he wanted to win there. If matthews doesn't want to do that that's on him.

If we lose again in the 1st round, I can't blame the guy, all I am saying.

I agree. They need more Bunting types. Gritty puck hound pests that can handle playing physical in the corners.

To be successful in this system, forwards need to be able to skate. It's what guys like Engvall and Mikheyev are successful. They can wheel.

When the JT deal was signed, I was excited but I was also warning the long term cap implications. And here we are. It was the reason why I was not as keen on the deal. But you can't not be excited about having him.

Only problem is Engvall and Mikhayev kinda sucked in the playoffs again.

Only Kampf in the bottom 6 actually beat a goalie for a goal this series. We really need to get more goal support from guys outside of the top 6 or our defense.

I understand Bunting was injured in the playoffs, bad timing unfortunately.

 

[capfit9]

What the people outraged by this news fail to realize is that change doesn't necessary equal progress. People are angry with the outcome and want to see blood shed. That's it. I get it, but it's dumb.

I think of all the bottom-dwelling NFL franchises that swap out head coaches every two years and then wonder why they're stuck in an endless cycle of mediocrity.

Give the reigns to a management team you have faith in and give them the resources, the autonomy, and the time to execute the vision. If you change horses midstream when things go sideways, you never have a chance.

(And I say this as someone who sees the good and the bad in Dubas's track record and who just wants the Leafs to win.)

6 years though