Confirmed with Link: Shanahan, Dubas, Keefe all staying

[ToneDog]

Part of me wonders if Dubas has a plan to offload JT. Seems like a longshot but cutting Willie loose doesn't seem like a Dubas move even if it looks like the most obvious play. Matthews, Marner, and Rielly aren't going anywhere and any other moves seem too minor to truly move the needle.

JT was their best/most productive player in the last 2 playoff games. If you believe Dekes, JT scored 3 goals in those two games. Doubt Dubas can move him with that cap hit.

I believe we should make better use of JT by using him on the PK and moving him to PP2.

 

[m1ker]

The only thing that progressed this year was our depth scoring but we won't be able to afford any of our depth next year because they will all get raises. We are under estimating how cheap some of our players were this year and most importantly how cheap our goaltending position is relative to other teams in the NHL. This will change next year because we won't have a starter @ 1.6m. We will need the core to play at an even higher level next year if we have any chance, do we think they have a next gear?

 

[egd27]

I’m pretty sure if they stumble out the gate or hit a patch or the season like Edmonton did then Sheldon’s seat will undoubtedly get hot

So Dubas and Shanny will make the same mistake they did with Babcock by not being proactive. A lot easier to find a good coach in the offseason than in season....much better for the new coach and team as well.

 

[Clark4Ever]

Thoughts?

It's hyperbole in my opinion. Shanahan, Dubas and Keefe know full well that this is their last kick at the can. The pressure will be worse than ever.

 

[PromisedLand]

I don't think anyone is blaming Matthews. Ideally he would have come out and put up a hat trick to counter Future Rocket Winner Nick Paul, but every single Leaf and Lightning star player was also offensively neutralized in that game in terms of scoring.

I don't think that is the right approach to looking at the info. One should look at the entire series not just one game.

Game 2 and Game 4 this team did not show up to play. Tampa didn't in Game 1 and Game 3 either but thats on Tampa; we shouldn't point to that and say that Tampa didnt show up to play in 2 games so if Leafs didn't that is all OK.

Then you look at Game 6. Leading by a goal in the third period; this team managed only 4 shots on goal and turtled (disregard the phantom penalty - calgary got hosed by stupid penalties but they didn't bendover. In Game 7 Calgary had 100+ shot attempts, they didn't care that Otteinger had gone God Mode).

Knowing full well that we haven't won a freakin' round in forever, we blew a 3-1 series lead last season; there should have been an urgency by this team to not let complacency set in. But the complacency and lazy attitude and easily satisfied smugness did settle in for this team in Games 2,3 and 6.

Thats on the players but more importantly that is on the Coach. The attitude that Keefe had was of loser mentality and of someone that is easily satisfied. His "respect" comment was the icing on the cake at the end there.

In the locker clean out interviews:
(am paraphrasing)

Nylander: When you look back at Game 2 and Game 4 we should have shown up
Rielly: We have to give more there has to be more
Spezza: I have to look at it and see what I did was it enough?


Then you have losers like shnahan, dubas and keefe saying they were the best there ever was... so close... close to what asshats? you haven't won a round; you are talking like you lost in the game 7 of a conference final or cup finals.

It is absolutely frustrating and infuriating

SAD. I told you guys like 3 years ago they will never win a round even with this core and shany/dubas.

Core is not really the issue IMO; it is the amount of cap been allocated to core with nothing left for good quality depth pieces; and not having a #1D or a #1G.

That is team building foresight that Dubas does not have. I have no issues with Matthews, Marner or whoever asking for the world that is their right; the problem is Dubas bending over and giving the world to them instead of doing what is right for the "Logo" that pays his salary

 

[Nylanderthal]

I don't think that is the right approach to looking at the info. One should look at the entire series not just one game.

Game 2 and Game 4 this team did not show up to play. Tampa didn't in Game 1 and Game 3 either but thats on Tampa; we shouldn't point to that and say that Tampa didnt show up to play in 2 games so if Leafs didn't that is all OK.

Then you look at Game 6. Leading by a goal in the third period; this team managed only 4 shots on goal and turtled (disregard the phantom penalty - calgary got hosed by stupid penalties but they didn't bendover. In Game 7 Calgary had 100+ shot attempts, they didn't care that Otteinger had gone God Mode).

Knowing full well that we haven't won a freakin' round in forever, we blew a 3-1 series lead last season; there should have been an urgency by this team to not let complacency set in. But the complacency and lazy attitude and easily satisfied smugness did settle in for this team in Games 2,3 and 6.

Thats on the players but more importantly that is on the Coach. The attitude that Keefe had was of loser mentality and of someone that is easily satisfied. His "respect" comment was the icing on the cake at the end there.

In the locker clean out interviews:
(am paraphrasing)

Nylander: When you look back at Game 2 and Game 4 we should have shown up
Rielly: We have to give more there has to be more
Spezza: I have to look at it and see what I did was it enough?


Then you have losers like shnahan, dubas and keefe saying they were the best there ever was... so close... close to what asshats? you haven't won a round; you are talking like you lost in the game 7 of a conference final or cup finals.

It is absolutely frustrating and infuriating



Core is not really the issue IMO; it is the amount of cap been allocated to core with nothing left for good quality depth pieces; and not having a #1D or a #1G.

That is team building foresight that Dubas does not have. I have no issues with Matthews, Marner or whoever asking for the world that is their right; the problem is Dubas bending over and giving the world to them instead of doing what is right for the "Logo" that pays his salary

Like a poster said above what do you expect the management to say to the media? “We’ll Kyle & Sheldon this is awkward but you’re both fired” or shit on the players they’re going to either look to re-sign or trade?

 

[egd27]

It's hyperbole in my opinion. Shanahan, Dubas and Keefe know full well that this is their last kick at the can. The pressure will be worse than ever.

Fire Shanahan/Dubas (Yay or Nay)

No cap left for quality depth 50% of the cap allocated to 4 players (all forwards) No NHL experience (coach/gm) Fire Shanahan, Dubas Get someone new with solid NHL experience (GM/Coach) tandem that does not bend to players' demands based on how much players make Not dubas' fault - players...

hfboards.mandatory.com

guess we could have just bumped this "one more year" thread instead o starting a new one

 

[horner]

That’s because that’s how low the bar is set here in Toronto. Winning a first round would feel like a huge victory to upper management when clearly it’s still not enough considering how long this team has had to develop together. This really is one of the most talented hockey teams I think I’ve ever seen that has failed so miserably in the playoffs, it almost seems like a slapstick comedy movie that I’m watching on repeat.

They were status quo even after the debacle against Montreal where they completely mailed it in and no showed in game seven and were eliminated in embarrassing fashion. So I knew damn well that if they didn’t change things after that, there was no way they were going to change things after this season.

It’s all about complacency, they stand to still make tens of millions of dollars, they don’t need to try to draw in new fans like some American markets.

i’m a huge fan of Auston Matthews and Mitch Marner, think they are two of the better hockey players in the entire NHL. However, they’ve yet to show me that killer instinct in a game seven situation, they’ve yet to piggyback their team on their backs like McDavid did in game seven for Edmonton against LA, I’ve not seen that from them in any elimination game thus far.

I know they’ll have a fantastic regular season next year, but it’s hard to show much enthusiasm and excitement for status quo when you most likely know how the story is going to end next season.

I agree.

And our captain has never been a big leader and he is the same no points or very few in game 7.
We really need to find a emotional driver, driver a Marchant type of player .
How we find him I don't know.
We had no one driving to the net in game 7.
Vasi was on his game do something to distrupt his game.

Getting blown out in game 4 should have been an eye opener to management

We fans knew we were going to lose game 7 not management

 

[Buds17]

Thoughts?

Coaching and management never quite possess the same amount of security that (some) players do. Any pressure that accompanies playing for or running the Toronto Maple Leafs is counterbalanced by what winning again would mean to so many. While I don't know that the events of yesterday were an outright vote of confidence, I do know that my viewpoint of Shanahan, Dubas and Keefe sinking or swimming as a unit largely remains unchanged.

 

[ToneDog]

So Dubas and Shanny will make the same mistake they did with Babcock by not being proactive. A lot easier to find a good coach in the offseason than in season....much better for the new coach and team as well.

Nah let's pass on Trots for a second time. Seriously, change the coach and you probably get little flack for running it back again.

 

[ACC1224]

Nah let's pass on Trots for a second time. Seriously, change the coach and you probably get little flack for running it back again.

That's all that's needed other than some minor tweaks, IMO.

 

[ToneDog]

Fire Shanahan/Dubas (Yay or Nay)

No cap left for quality depth 50% of the cap allocated to 4 players (all forwards) No NHL experience (coach/gm) Fire Shanahan, Dubas Get someone new with solid NHL experience (GM/Coach) tandem that does not bend to players' demands based on how much players make Not dubas' fault - players...

hfboards.mandatory.com

guess we could have just bumped this "one more year" thread instead o starting a new one

We might be able to bump it in a year.

 

[kevsh]

The Leafs are proud of their data-driven approach. So here's some data to help understand where the problem is:

In the past 4 playoff series Toronto is 7-5 in the first 3 games of those series, 3-8 in the last 3 games (2 games for the Columbus series), including 1-5 over the past 2 series. In series-deciding games they've scored a total of 3 games in those 4 years.

As series progress typically there are less powerplays, the scoring comes down as the games become tighter checking. The very simple conclusion then is that this team cannot win tight-checking, low scoring games in the playoffs. And they're not "getting close", in fact the 1-5 stat shows if anything they are getting worse at it.

So the challenge for Dubas and Keefe is to sort out how do they get this roster (as is, or with changes) to be able to score when their opponent is making it more difficult to score. Clearly, their stars so far have been unable to.

Matthews, Marner, Tavares and Nylander specifically seem to be able to put up solid numbers overall (as do most teams' best players), but in those critical late-series games they, or anyone else for that matter can't buy a goal. That has to change. And again, it's clear they are no closer to figuring that out than they were 4 years ago.

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

I like Keefe, I am not sure that firing him would really make us better. My only annoyance is his distrust for young talent.

I thought Liljegren was sorely missed. People said they put Holl in for this PK abilities, but the PK was terrible with or without him. Liljegren was a difference maker 5v5 and I think he could have given our PP1 a different look.

Frustrating to say the least. Very Babcockian and stubborn.

 

[Mess]

Yes.......but was the best candidate chosen as his replacement? Were any other candidates even interviewed ?

Seems like Dubas had made his mind up on his buddy Keefe long in advance and didn't seem to look at other options. Sort of like the other "old boys" that the younger fans regularly complain about.

Dubas could have chosen Trotz instead of Keefe previously, and he could still chose him now after.

Trotz has won 8 playoff series during Keefe's time as coach who has won 8 playoff games.

Yesterday when Dubas was asked this similar question

Asked Tuesday whether he’s considered what the impact could be of adding a veteran coach like Barry Trotz or Pete DeBoer — both of whom were relieved of their duties by their former NHL clubs this month — Dubas said he hasn't considered moving on from Keefe for a more veteran voice.

“It hasn’t crossed my mind, and I think my reason for that is my belief in Sheldon and the job that he’s done here so far,” the GM said.

“But also, that I only think Sheldon’s going to get better. I think when we speak of Sheldon 10, 15 years from now, it’ll be in the same way that you spoke of those two great coaches . And I think that’ll be played out here in Toronto.”

So Dubas instead of getting the ready made "GREAT coaches" today he believes Keefe will grow into that in 10-15 years time. So ss long as Dubas is the GM, then Keefe will be the coach regardless if better option exist and regardless of the playoff results and all of Leaf Nation fanbase needs to sit and wait for Keefe to grow into being a good coach as the season pass in failure.

 

[PromisedLand]

People in Toronto forget that 6 years ago, we blew it to smithereens.
Hell, we paid Pittsburgh to have a key cog in their 2 cups and shipped Bozak to St. Louis for another.

It's a cycle of -

Blow it up and start over
Give the kids a chance and patience
Win now or else
Blow it up again

Every team has the same cycles, but the difference is that Toronto has higher amplitude and faster frequency for the cycle.

Team building with a foresight is important

what is that foresight?
- how much cap now and potentially in future
- how does my team stack up against divisional rivals and potential playoff competitor in rounds 1,2 and may be 3
- what is potentially my window given the way the division is assembled in terms of cap space/age/prospect pull/players on roster compared to mine
- other(s) -> what can I do on TDL, what can I do with expiring contracts, how am I going to plan w.r.t RFAs resignings, other contract negotiations, competing in the UFA market, etc....

None of this has gone into Dubas' thinking given the way he has gone about his business.

Ideal team has: #1G, #1D, #1C, scoring winger, quality depth pieces and decent top4 (top 6 if feasible)

Of those Leafs only have 1C i.e. Matthews; a socring winger (Marner); and one quality depth piece (Nylander). Rielly is good but he is not a #1D.

Recent cup winning teams or teams that have gone deep:
- Pens: Crosby, Malkin, Kessel, Letang, MAF/Murray
- Tampa: Samkos, Kucherov, Hedman, Point, Vasy
- Hawks: Toews, Kane, Hossa, Keith, #1G
- Caps: Backstrom, Ovi, Oshie, Kuznetsov, Carlson, Holtby
- Blues, Kings, etc... will fit some of that model

Note: every team had a point shot, every team had a goalie as part of the core for the most part and they had quality depth pieces that got it done when their stars were shut down.

Dubas has failed as GM in so many ways yet you guys I don;'t see where this vote of confidence is coming from.... It is bizarre and quite frankly seems out of touch from reality

 

[ShaneFalco]

None of you are anywhere close to being capable of running a beer league team, let alone an NHL franchise with some of the best players in the world.

lol
Yes - we shouldn't even comment on the team or it's direction, just trust in a guy who has had no success in the NHL, and his yes-man coach

Thoughts?

So true! Losing is acceptable every year as long as you try and there's some regular season progress. Sadly it will take the Leafs missing the playoffs before some come around. Others will never, because the Dube Abides

 

[ShaneFalco]

Team building with a foresight is important

what is that foresight?
- how much cap now and potentially in future
- how does my team stack up against divisional rivals and potential playoff competitor in rounds 1,2 and may be 3
- what is potentially my window given the way the division is assembled in terms of cap space/age/prospect pull/players on roster compared to mine
- other(s) -> what can I do on TDL, what can I do with expiring contracts, how am I going to plan w.r.t RFAs resignings, other contract negotiations, competing in the UFA market, etc....

None of this has gone into Dubas' thinking given the way he has gone about his business.

Ideal team has: #1G, #1D, #1C, scoring winger, quality depth pieces and decent top4 (top 6 if feasible)

Of those Leafs only have 1C i.e. Matthews; a socring winger (Marner); and one quality depth piece (Nylander). Rielly is good but he is not a #1D.

Recent cup winning teams or teams that have gone deep:
- Pens: Crosby, Malkin, Kessel, Letang, MAF/Murray
- Tampa: Samkos, Kucherov, Hedman, Point, Vasy
- Hawks: Toews, Kane, Hossa, Keith, #1G
- Caps: Backstrom, Ovi, Oshie, Kuznetsov, Carlson, Holtby
- Blues, Kings, etc... will fit some of that model

Note: every team had a point shot, every team had a goalie as part of the core for the most part and they had quality depth pieces that got it done when their stars were shut down.

Dubas has failed as GM in so many ways yet you guys I don;'t see where this vote of confidence is coming from.... It is bizarre and quite frankly seems out of touch from reality

I wonder what "character" vet he'll bring in this year, or "tough to play against guy" to help his core try and get over a 6 year hump? But no, that isn't backwards

I like Keefe, I am not sure that firing him would really make us better. My only annoyance is his distrust for young talent.

I thought Liljegren was sorely missed. People said they put Holl in for this PK abilities, but the PK was terrible with or without him. Liljegren was a difference maker 5v5 and I think he could have given our PP1 a different look.

Frustrating to say the least. Very Babcockian and stubborn.

So you liked when he played Thornton all the time everywhere? When he didn't mix anything up with the Habs and allowed them to carry out their game plan and shut us down? How the PP and no adjustments despite it sucking yet again?
Love to hear why people think he's a good coach

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

The only thing that progressed this year was our depth scoring but we won't be able to afford any of our depth next year because they will all get raises. We are under estimating how cheap some of our players were this year and most importantly how cheap our goaltending position is relative to other teams in the NHL. This will change next year because we won't have a starter @ 1.6m. We will need the core to play at an even higher level next year if we have any chance, do we think they have a next gear?

We keep bleeding depth in order to keep this core and somehow expect them to win. We had depth a few years ago...we bled away Kappy and Johnsson along with Connor Brown etc. How do they think changing 30% or more of the team every year will work to our benefit? Maybe that's why they call themselves a "group" instead of a team.

 

[Nylanderthal]

I like Keefe, I am not sure that firing him would really make us better. My only annoyance is his distrust for young talent.

I thought Liljegren was sorely missed. People said they put Holl in for this PK abilities, but the PK was terrible with or without him. Liljegren was a difference maker 5v5 and I think he could have given our PP1 a different look.

Frustrating to say the least. Very Babcockian and stubborn.

Holl was on for 1 pk goal all series

 

[PROUD PAPA]

Well, looks like they have 2 more cracks at it. I do wonder if they'll be open to trying something different for their last kick at the can in 23/24.

On the bright side we have 55 million of cap space in 24/25 and 77 million the following year. So just be patient.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Leafs are well past the just happy to make the playoffs stage.

For some

 

[Gary Nylund]

I agree CO and Tampa for the cup…….
I think they may 3 peat!
they have a system that works, they are great at drawing penalties and Hedman plays about 25 mins…..
Stamkso doesn’t seem to do much but his hockey IQ is off the charts……always right spot right time.

kucherov flying around like a bee and they beat them with one of their top 3 players on the sidelines…….ugh

Yeah Kucherov is an amazing player. Funny how in discussions about who the best player in the league is, it's Matthews and McDavid that are always mentioned, then some Draisaitl, used to be MacKinnon and sometimes Hedman gets mentioned but never Kucherov. Guy consistently produces in the regular season and he's owned the playoffs last couple of years, how the hell does he get to fly under the radar?

I've rolled my eyes in previous years when for example we lose to MTL and some posters go oh look, MTL went to the finals, we lost to such a good team. What a crock of shit! We were huge favourites against MTL and that's that. Same applies here to TB but the thing is, they ARE an elite team, they've been THE ELITE TEAM for years now and we don't need to see them go to the finals before we recognize that simple fact.

It's funny how people are yelling 6 1st round exist in a row. I wonder, are they just pretending that there's nothing different about this year's performance or do they really not get it?

I don't care what anyone says, this is a really good hockey team we have here and all we need is a #1 goalie. f*** the haters.

 

[ShaneFalco]

It's funny how people are yelling 6 1st round exist in a row. I wonder, are they just pretending that there's nothing different about this year's performance or do they really not get it?

lol what because they showed some push back this year> Guess I'm a hater then and expect more than first round exits. I don't give a f*** who we lose to.

All we need is a #1 goalie, a backup, to get rid of a crappy overpaid backup, JT on the decline, Muzzin on the decline, Mik prob gone, Engvall probably gone.....simple!

 

[BrannigansLaw]

i haven't watched the entire presser but did Shanahan flat out say they are ALL coming back? What I heard was, we're not making change for the sake of making change, and Shanahan never really was one to make a reactionary move - he usually takes his time on that anyway (as you should).

like i just feel everyone expected him to be there and just start firing everyone live, or field trades at the conference. or be like "YOU SUCKED AT YOUR JOB, DUBAS, YOU'RE ON NOTICE." like let's ignore Keefe for a bit. who is out there in the GM world that would make people happy?

That would be the most boss move ever if he just turned to Dubas and Keefe at the start of the press conference and told them to pack their shit and get the hell out.