Confirmed with Link: Shanahan, Dubas, Keefe all staying

[Mopar]

A rookie President hiring a Rookie GM hiring a Rookie Coach was always a bad idea. This has been proven to be true every off season.

All that needs to be said really.

Everything was trending in the right direction. I had a very bad feeling when they announced the hiring of Dubas. I'm not saying Lou was the answer but it just didn't feel right. For the first time in a long time the organization felt more respectable with experienced, successful people in place. Shanny, Lou, Babcock, all winners in this league.

 

[Mr Bill Waters]

Since you seem to have your own definition of ‘mid stream’ can you let us in on what you mean?

Midstream: Over the coarse of several seasons. Keefe, Dubas, Shanahan are all proven winners. Pedigree. Fine thorough breads. You don't change those horses in midstream. Players yes. Horses no.

 

[TGB]

What the heck did you expect these guys to do? Dubas did his job: he assembled arguably the best Leafs team in history, and he managed to find the right pieces despite being handcuffed by the cap. The goaltending could have been better, but given how the series went, it was good enough. Keefe? He made adjustments that had an impact on the games which led to wins. Shanahan? He...uh...did...some stuff, I guess.

What were they supposed to do? Come down to the ice to yell at the refs? Smack the players in the butts? Was Shanahan supposed to strap on the skates while proudly proclaiming "If you want it done right..."?

I get playing the blame game is a time honoured tradition among fans, but come on! A thread like this is ridiculous. Point the fingers where they deserve to be pointed: at the players. It was their job to win the games. They were the ones who decided to spend the majority of the game tossing low quality shots at Vas. Management can only do so much from off-ice.

 

[ACC1224]

Midstream: Over the coarse of several seasons. Keefe, Dubas, Shanahan are all proven winners. Pedigree. Fine thorough breads. You don't change those horses in midstream. Players yes. Horses no.

Seems like you're a 'friend of complacency'.
This is a full circle moment for the franchise.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Midstream: Over the coarse of several seasons. Keefe, Dubas, Shanahan are all proven winners. Pedigree. Fine thorough breads. You don't change those horses in midstream. Players yes. Horses no.

"Proven winners" - not in this league

 

[ReHabs]

Habs fan. I've been studying the Leafs a bit these past few days, and while I've bantered a fair bit on the Leafs for losing the first round I think in the macro view the Leafs are genuinely well built and run.

My argument is as follows:

1. The goal for a GM is to assemble a team that can win the cup
2. Teams that win the Cup invariably have a strong core of 5-7 players and peripheral ones who come and go
3. The Leafs core is enviable -- multiple PPG+ or near PPG players + Morgan Rielly -- but it's not perfect
4. The only 'perfect' core, on paper, was Tampa 2021-2022 and the early winning Chicago teams
5. The Leafs are no worse than any other Cup winner since the 2005 lockout
6. The other goal of a GM is to assemble a team that can have several attempts to win the Cup
7. The Leafs made the playoffs each of the last six seasons, with at least four of them with expectations of making a Cup run (We can consider these four playoff appearances (losses as they were) to be Kicks at the Can)
8. Despite the flat salary cap and the difficulties of the Covid Pandemic, the Leafs have kept the core together for at least two more seasons
9. Six + two, or even four + two is still a remarkably long window that Dubas and his predecessors have put together
10. Moving on from Dubas should happen after next season at the very earliest, if at all

That the Leafs have not surpassed the first round hump is a remarkably strange fact that should not distract frustrated fans when they're analyzing how the GM has assembled the elements of the team. The Leafs are not in cap hell (especially if they move one or two of Brodie, Mrazek, or Muzzins) despite the cap flattening right as their window opened. That's as much as you can ask for from a GM.

I'd show loyalty to Dubas and expect him to deliver, he's done a good job so far and can and will get better.

 

[ITM]

No apparently it takes 6 years of first round exits which is historical


The 3 Stooges wasting the most talented team ee've had

The first round exits are historical. So was this past regular season and Matthews 60 goals.

The First Round is not a singular team that we can't beat. It's been Championship level, mature, long-seasoned clubs like Bergeron's Bruins and Ovechkin's Capitals. Columbus and Montreal - particularly and painfully Montreal - were outliers.

But this portion of the fanbase and our not to be imitated media incessantly generalizing our predicament is nuts.

Maybe the 3 stooges are our players who independent of the 3 stooges who managed them can't overcome personal limitations of dedication and talent. OR maybe its the personality of the 3 stooges who have to be equally praised as they're condemned for getting 60 goals out of one of the other 3 stooges. A small and unimportant feat certainly...as was home ice (a step) and a record setting regular season. Small steps, but to so many watching, not good enough, Tampa be damned and the notion that perhaps there actually was a "but for" moment that the officiating were absolutely instrumental in achieving to our detriment.

My sense from that moment on was, it's monumental enough to roll with this Tampa team, it's mythically monumental to do so while including the refs as part of the labour.

If we similarly generalize about players who score at generational clips and teams within their cycle of maturation, I wonder how many invariably break through to win the Cup? Detroit certainly comes to my mind and I bet it's sitting in Shanahan's reminding him that before that breakthrough there is a temptation to trade away foundational pieces. Any Google deep dive will yield Yzerman's experience to that effect. Thank Illitch he stayed.

And I bet THAT experience is what is prompting Shanahan to see if the step taken this year is the one before the leap next year.

 

[pcruz]

Hey I'm on your side. I was just trying to put it in the simplest terms I could think of to assuage the crowd with the pitchforks. I don't think they're listening though but whatever, it's the internet so no surprises there.

Nope, just trying to be objective and calling it like I see it. If we had played listlessly in game 7 (again) and lost 5-1 or whatever as we've done the 4 years previous, that would be one thing. These playoffs were completely different though and for the first time since the WSH, I have no reason to crap on the teams playoff performance. We had a great regular season but most important, we carried over a high level of play into the playoffs and went down fighting hard to what has been the best team in the NHL the last couple of years and what might be the best team again this year. This is a very good hockey team, it just doesn't make sense to say otherwise.

JMHO, I realize I'm in the minority with that opinion but what can I say, that is my opinion and I'm not ashamed to say what I think.

I agree with you completely.

I think that we need not even ask for more good luck or bounces, we needed less individual errors and that would have been more than sufficient the last 2 years.

Also, last year we may have been the 3rd best team in the league. May have been the 15th best. We have little way of measuring that.

It may be that we are the 2nd best team this year, but lost to the 2nd best and 1st best teams on consecutive playoff runs.

We just don't know.

What we do know is that this year did not include a meltdown or embarrassing loss to end it. The players were not shell-shocked like games 5 and 7 the 2 previous years.

Our best players were better than their counterparts.

It just didn't finish.

 

[Optimist]

I can accept this. Either all 3 were gonna get canned, or none of them. None of them was the obvious choice.

 

[ShaneFalco]

I can accept this. Either all 3 were gonna get canned, or none of them. None of them was the obvious choice.

You start with a coach who gets outcoached each year and doesn't/can't adapt.
But to Dubas he's hall of fame caliber so sign him up for 10 years!

 

[tmlfan98]

I'm actually shocked how these guys are all still employed, especially Keefe. This guy literally went from saying after winning game 5 "these performances won't matter if we don't close it out" to "they showed us a lot more respect in the handshake line than other years."

Then you have Shanny and Dubas starting the presser saying they wouldn't make excuses, and the entire presser is literally excuse after excuse.

How is it that all of a sudden you're seeing BS "analysis" everywhere along the lines of "look at this series in a vacuum and it's not that disappointing." This cuck behaviour in Toronto needs to end now. Delusionals need to remember that 2020 Columbus and 2021 Habs still happened.

This is the third year in a row now that I'm repeating this at the end of a 1st round L: this core is cooked, there is no mix of supporting cast that will push them over the top. Dubas could literally put together a 2019 Tampa level 60+ win team and they would still lose in the first round to any opponent they face.

In 2020 I was told "bubble asterisk", and in 2021 I was told a mix of "no fans asterisk" and "Leafs don't choke 3-1 if JT is healthy." I wonder what all the delusionals are going to tell me this year?

Also re-signing Rielly to 7.5x8 will become a very hated contract in this city before the halfway point of the extension. Dubas actually gave 7.5M per to a PP merchant who needs a very specific type of D partner to not suck at even strength, and having him at the point on PP1 in the playoffs simply doesn't work anymore. You need a point shot on PP1 in the playoffs.

 

[Nineteen67]

On one hand, I could give Dubas a pass here. The team has shown massive improvement (especially defensively) since Keefe took over and just had a fantastic regular season. Yes playoff failures but we lost what, 3 OT games last two seasons so that's two bounces away from winning both those series. Bottom line, Keefe has done well, he is under contract and that's not a situation where you rush to interview a good coach that becomes available.

On the other hand, I get the feeling that Dubas will never fire Keefe no matter what, just like maybe he will never trade Nylander because he takes the concept of loyalty too far which hurts the team. That's just a feeling of course, I don't know that for sure and I sure hope I'm wrong.


I already mentioned goaltending. But if you don't think that M&M&Rielly cover key positions and our defence is pretty much set, hey good for you.

Agree to disagree, have a nice day.

Im not talking Matthews and Marner. The top two lines are fine because there is stability there

However, there is more to building a Cup contending team than just the top line.
They got close this year, but they have to replace several players ( some because their contract expires and some because they’re not good enough) by casting their net hoping to catch them.

Right now, their net is not very big so they’ll have to buy a bigger one.
All because of an improper, ineffective rebuild strategy.

 

[pcruz]

Habs fan. I've been studying the Leafs a bit these past few days, and while I've bantered a fair bit on the Leafs for losing the first round I think in the macro view the Leafs are genuinely well built and run.

My argument is as follows:

1. The goal for a GM is to assemble a team that can win the cup
2. Teams that win the Cup invariably have a strong core of 5-7 players and peripheral ones who come and go
3. The Leafs core is enviable -- multiple PPG+ or near PPG players + Morgan Rielly -- but it's not perfect
4. The only 'perfect' core, on paper, was Tampa 2021-2022 and the early winning Chicago teams
5. The Leafs are no worse than any other Cup winner since the 2005 lockout
6. The other goal of a GM is to assemble a team that can have several attempts to win the Cup
7. The Leafs made the playoffs each of the last six seasons, with at least four of them with expectations of making a Cup run (We can consider these four playoff appearances (losses as they were) to be Kicks at the Can)
8. Despite the flat salary cap and the difficulties of the Covid Pandemic, the Leafs have kept the core together for at least two more seasons
9. Six + two, or even four + two is still a remarkably long window that Dubas and his predecessors have put together
10. Moving on from Dubas should happen after next season at the very earliest, if at all

That the Leafs have not surpassed the first round hump is a remarkably strange fact that should not distract frustrated fans when they're analyzing how the GM has assembled the elements of the team. The Leafs are not in cap hell (especially if they move one or two of Brodie, Mrazek, or Muzzins) despite the cap flattening right as their window opened. That's as much as you can ask for from a GM.

I'd show loyalty to Dubas and expect him to deliver, he's done a good job so far and can and will get better.

People in Toronto forget that 6 years ago, we blew it to smithereens.
Hell, we paid Pittsburgh to have a key cog in their 2 cups and shipped Bozak to St. Louis for another.

It's a cycle of -

Blow it up and start over
Give the kids a chance and patience
Win now or else
Blow it up again

Every team has the same cycles, but the difference is that Toronto has higher amplitude and faster frequency for the cycle.

 

[ACC1224]

People in Toronto forget that 6 years ago, we blew it to smithereens.
Hell, we paid Pittsburgh to have a key cog in their 2 cups and shipped Bozak to St. Louis for another.

It's a cycle of -

Blow it up and start over
Give the kids a chance and patience
Win now or else
Blow it up again

Every team has the same cycles, but the difference is that Toronto has higher amplitude and faster frequency for the cycle.

I could be wrong but I don't get the sense at all that anyone wants to 'blow it up'.

 

[Optimist]

If every team fired their president, GM, and head coach every time they didn't win the Stanley Cup, there'd be 93 high profile NHL jobs up for grabs every year.

 

[ShaneFalco]

If every team fired their president, GM, and head coach every time they didn't win the Stanley Cup, there'd be 93 high profile NHL jobs up for grabs every year.

Has there been a team that has lost 4 in a row in the first round with the same GM, and 6 in a row with the same Pres? 8 years in total with Shanny. No there hasn't because it's a new record
C'mon man

 

[pcruz]

Im not talking Matthews and Marner. The top two lines are fine because there is stability there

However, there is more to building a Cup contending team than just the top line.
They got close this year, but they have to replace several players ( some because their contract expires and some because they’re not good enough) by casting their net hoping to catch them.

Right now, their net is not very big so they’ll have to buy a bigger one.
All because of an improper, ineffective rebuild strategy.

Look around the league and find a good team that isn't in cap hell.

Go for it.

Pittsburgh is about to lose Malkin mostly because of financial reasons.
St. Louis lost Pietrangelo after winning the cup.
Chicago made 3 entirely new teams.
Tampa lost their 3rd line.

The contracts were handled poorly, but that was 3 years ago.
There is no point crying about them now.
The players are very good and have finally produced well for the whole season, including the big games.

This is the wrong time to make drastic changes.

Losing Engvall and Mikheyev means nothing to me. They are peripheral players and replaced easily. That's not a shake-up.
Moving a core player is a shake up and that's just unnecessary and reactionary for the sake of being reactionary.

I don't want management to assuage or appease the masses, I want them to have a plan and stick to it methodically.

 

[ACC1224]

If every team fired their president, GM, and head coach every time they didn't win the Stanley Cup, there'd be 93 high profile NHL jobs up for grabs every year.

This doesn't make much sense. Every team is at different stages and has different expectations every year.

 

[DuklaNation]

1st round exits year after year has become acceptable. Better effort? At least they tried? LOL After 4 years, has Dubas put the team in a better place? I'd rather take that 2018 roster/cap situation over current status.

Team mediocre: Never first, never last

 

[ShaneFalco]

Better effort? At least they tried? LOL After 4 years

Sad isn't it?

 

[pcruz]

This doesn't make much sense. Every team is at different stages and has different expectations every year.

And yet, they are all losers in the end except 1.

If you lose in round 1 against the eventual winners, were you better or worse than the other 14 losers?

 

[Mess]

So I was just digging around and the 2021-22 Toronto Maple Leafs place 34th in most points in NHL history and 24th in most wins in a season, all time.

So if we did blow up the program it would actually be for the sins of the 2019-20 and 2020-21 teams more so than losing to the twice defending champions in the first round.

It's an unusual time and maybe not that satisfying if you really want a shakeup, but maybe running it back over and over in some form like this is actually what normal franchises do...

So then this Shanahan--Dubas--Keefe trifecta is permanent thing until success happens.

However if you pay 3 players X $11 mil as among the top in the game, you're essentially buying a playoff spot annually because all you have to do is finish in the top 8 teams in the East and qualify for the playoffs, since no playoff success doesn't force change no matter how many years that takes to achieve.

Big market team spending to the cap ceiling, against rebuilding teams like Buffalo, Ottawa and Detroit who spend near the cap floor and $10-15 mil below the Cap ceiling shouldn't be too hard to beat out to get into the top 8, particularly when the previous GM gifted you a 60 goal scorer and generational franchise #1C, after pulling the team out from the bottom of the league and handing over a +100 point playoff team to start.

Would it qualify as "blowing up the program" by changing the coach and running it back with the same core group players year after year?

If the answer is "YES" the the previous question and making the playoffs alone = 100% job security for GM and Coach then one can conclude to force change and a major shakeup, its going to take the Leafs to either 1) Miss the playoffs or 2). Have Matthews depart in 2 years when his contract ends chasing success elsewhere, forcing the Leafs into a rebuild as this current window of Cup competitiveness closes.

So then we know going forward that as soon into the next regular season the Leafs team qualifies for the playoffs, the bar for management job security threshold has been breached, anything thereafter irrelevant as they will "run it back" the following year continuing to tinker around the edges only, to make sure you don't fail to qualify for the playoffs by making a change in personnel that causes it.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Wake me up in 2nd round next year .. but I expect team to be fighting for a playoff spot against Metro teams again .. I don't expect Isles and Flyers to crap da bed again next year .. Bruins will be weaker too .. but chances pretty decent of being 3rd seed next year and out again to Tampa/Florida in round 1 .. same old same old .. da story line won't change at all ..

half da subscriber base is upset .. half da sponsor base is upset .. interested to hear what Shanny tells us on Thursday in sponsor renewal mtg .. my worry is secondary market will really drop off da map in a recession and with da state of team .. sure subscribers will all pay up in June 2022 but will there be an active trading market??????????? .. lots of subscribers gonna be stuck with tickets next year and I worry no investment returns on our licenses .. some tough times coming for Leafs

 

[Cap'n Flavour]

Wise decision. You don't change horses in midstream.

Midstream of what, pissing away the primes of Matthews, Marner and Nylander?

Keefe? He made adjustments that had an impact on the games which led to wins.

Which adjustments? Did they stop starting off the game flat and giving up the first goal?

 

[The Masters]

im fine with them staying but if they dont shake up the core and revamp bottom 6, they are living in la la land.