Confirmed with Link: Shanahan, Dubas, Keefe all staying

[Apex Predator]

You seem to evaluate "better" solely on paper, just like Dubas plugging in his roster into EA sports and marveling at the overall rating.

St. Louis traded away TJ Oshie for lesser players before they won a Cup. Tampa Bay traded away JT Miller before they won a Cup. This year, the Rangers traded away Buchnevich for lesser players and went to the third round. All those players are equivalents to Nylander, and all those trades made their teams "worse" on paper, but more importantly, they helped balance those rosters, giving each team more ways to win.

The problem with the Leafs is they only have one way to win: offence. They are one-dimensional, and thus easy playoff outs every year, as teams force them to try to win another way, and they simply don't have the personnel nor the will nor the coaching to adapt. Winning is rarely the result of a steady development curve, but almost always requires a seismic shift in a team's playing style and philosophy (e.g. Washington with Trotz). The problem is Dubas doesn't have the maturity to admit he was wrong.

This right here sums it up perfectly. The Leafs can trade Nylander for lesser players and still make the team better overall. How many more years in the playoffs do we have to go when we have a whole line we can’t put out there. The 4th line has always been a non factor.

Other teams are sticking their 3rd and 4th lines out against us and we can’t match. We’re playing 3 line hockey while the others have 4. In a 7 game series that drains the players. They never seem to have the gas at the end to put the series away.

Leafs have plenty of offense and trading some of it away to change the dynamic of the team to have more balance and depth is good.

 

[francis246]

We definitely need to start graduating some Marlies, but the problem is we also need to add a certain kind of player to our bottom 6… and the Marlie players don’t match that need.

Dubas can’t possibly think that we should got into next year with an even smaller and even softer bottom 6.

Curtis Douglas would be a fine add, I have a feeling he’s going to be our Marchment 2.0

 

[Nylanderthal]

This right here sums it up perfectly. The Leafs can trade Nylander for lesser players and still make the team better overall. How many more years in the playoffs do we have to go when we have a whole line we can’t put out there. The 4th line has always been a non factor.

Other teams are sticking their 3rd and 4th lines out against us and we can’t match. We’re playing 3 line hockey while the others have 4. In a 7 game series that drains the players. They never seem to have the gas at the end to put the series away.

Leafs have plenty of offense and trading some of it away to change the dynamic of the team to have more balance and depth is good.

Yes moving ppg game breakers for stuff you can acquire in FA or in soft/future based trades sounds like Great way to get this team over the hump.
Moving a guy like Willy for a high end draft pick or ELC talent then redirecting those funds to a forsberg makes sense, but diluting your crispy dollar bill into a bunch of spare change is not the direction a team looking to win should be leaning towards. It reeks of desperation

 

[rocketman588]

Prefacing this post with the statement that I respect Kyle Dubas as a person, and find it quite impressive that he's risen to such a professional position so relatively early in his life.

However, things I don't like about Dubas:

1. He says nothing in his press conferences. He basically says we're going to look at and try to improve everything, which is what every GM should be doing by default. But we never really get glimpses or insight into his philosophy on team-building, beyond cliches about character and "a 5'10 player is the same as a 6'5 player" stuff. It makes you wonder; does he have an actual philosophy or just stat sheets?

2. He seems vulnerable to outside pressure, again a sign of him lacking a hard-won philosophy on team success, which he would commit to fully. He tries to appease too many philosophies: a little bit of toughness, a little bit of mentorship, a little bit of grinding, a little bit of speed, a little bit of everything. I still have issues discerning our team identity at key moments; what are we? A good offensive team with a bottom 6 that can't score in the crunch. A good defensive team with mediocre goaltending. A fast team with an ancient fourth line. When I watch Pittsburgh, I see a clear identity: fast, fast, fast. St. Louis: balance, balance, balance. Tampa Bay: a skilled team that can grind with the best of them. Colorado: an offensive dynamo, with offence spread throughout the lineup. Good luck shutting them out in an elimination game. An identity holds a team together through obstacles, while we seem to fall apart in the face of obstacles. An identity comes from a singular vision rather than a Frankenstein collection of different visions.

3. He's too player friendly. Yes, it's good for your players to feel comfortable, but sometimes people need to be made to feel uncomfortable, to help push themselves to the next level. They need to receive a message from someone whose experience commands respect, rather than someone who demands respect with fake eyeglasses. I'd just prefer a lot more distance between our front office and our group of players to be honest.

4. His disregard for the team's future, and disrespect for the next GM of the Leafs. I don't know why, but him trading a potential 2nd rounder in 2025 to get out of the Nick Ritchie mistake bothers me. Of course, people talk about that cost as nothing, but it won't feel like nothing in 2025. It just felt to me like he was dipping into his GM successor's pocket to help him escape a situation of his own doing. Not to mind that we've been hemorrhaging futures for nothing for awhile now, which will come back to bite us eventually, and puts a lot of pressure on prospects like Knies and Niemela.

5. Yes I know that a number of GM's react emotionally in their boxes while watching playoff games, cheering or looking despondent. But Kyle is very emotionally involved, shown in all the GIFs of his playoff reactions. A person who is confident in their process is not so emotionally involved IMO, but rather adopts a more stoic attitude, knowing that they've put together the best team that they can, and accepting that team's fate. Kyle's hyperactive emotions to me betray an uncertainty in his process.

Great post!

 

[SeaOfBlue]

This right here sums it up perfectly. The Leafs can trade Nylander for lesser players and still make the team better overall. How many more years in the playoffs do we have to go when we have a whole line we can’t put out there. The 4th line has always been a non factor.

Other teams are sticking their 3rd and 4th lines out against us and we can’t match. We’re playing 3 line hockey while the others have 4. In a 7 game series that drains the players. They never seem to have the gas at the end to put the series away.

Leafs have plenty of offense and trading some of it away to change the dynamic of the team to have more balance and depth is good.

You don't need to trade Nylander to improve the 4th line though. If you are trading Nylander for a lesser player(s), then that guy still needs to be a 2nd line caliber player (i.e. a 60 point winger instead of an 80 point winger like Nylander) and there needs to be other pieces involved to make it worth our while. Trading Nylander for a couple of 40 point forwards does not make us a better team.

Tampa is pretty much running with 4 defensemen right now. Their bottom pairing plays a dozen minutes a night, at best. Makar and Toews are averaging 26+ minutes a night. Other than Tampa who uses their 4th line more than pretty much anybody (and is still very cheap BTW), all the other playoff teams are using their top guys (like Matthews and Marner) for more than 20 minutes a night. Maybe we can have a 4th line which can take Matthews/Marner from 22/23 minutes a night to 20 minutes a night, but if they are getting tired after one series, how can we expect them to last a full playoff run? That is not a "we need to cut their minutes because they are tired" issue, that is a "these guys need to get into better shape" issue.

These guys are not running out of gas. They look hungry and energetic and often are still controlling play. If anything, they need to stop gripping their sticks so hard and getting in their own heads.

We should look to improve our 4th line. Getting more out of that line than useless players who can only bring grit and energy on a good day would go a long way, especially since our margins for losing has been about as razor thin as it gets. However, trading Nylander to get more depth is not the way to go. You trade Nylander if you want a different look for the core; not to fill positions which you should be able to get surplus value out of for cheap.

 

[Nylanderthal]

Prefacing this post with the statement that I respect Kyle Dubas as a person, and find it quite impressive that he's risen to such a professional position so relatively early in his life.

However, things I don't like about Dubas:

1. He says nothing in his press conferences. He basically says we're going to look at and try to improve everything, which is what every GM should be doing by default. But we never really get glimpses or insight into his philosophy on team-building, beyond cliches about character and "a 5'10 player is the same as a 6'5 player" stuff. It makes you wonder; does he have an actual philosophy or just stat sheets?

2. He seems vulnerable to outside pressure, again a sign of him lacking a hard-won philosophy on team success, which he would commit to fully. He tries to appease too many philosophies: a little bit of toughness, a little bit of mentorship, a little bit of grinding, a little bit of speed, a little bit of everything. I still have issues discerning our team identity at key moments; what are we? A good offensive team with a bottom 6 that can't score in the crunch. A good defensive team with mediocre goaltending. A fast team with an ancient fourth line. When I watch Pittsburgh, I see a clear identity: fast, fast, fast. St. Louis: balance, balance, balance. Tampa Bay: a skilled team that can grind with the best of them. Colorado: an offensive dynamo, with offence spread throughout the lineup. Good luck shutting them out in an elimination game. An identity holds a team together through obstacles, while we seem to fall apart in the face of obstacles. An identity comes from a singular vision rather than a Frankenstein collection of different visions.

3. He's too player friendly. Yes, it's good for your players to feel comfortable, but sometimes people need to be made to feel uncomfortable, to help push themselves to the next level. They need to receive a message from someone whose experience commands respect, rather than someone who demands respect with fake eyeglasses. I'd just prefer a lot more distance between our front office and our group of players to be honest.

4. His disregard for the team's future, and disrespect for the next GM of the Leafs. I don't know why, but him trading a potential 2nd rounder in 2025 to get out of the Nick Ritchie mistake bothers me. Of course, people talk about that cost as nothing, but it won't feel like nothing in 2025. It just felt to me like he was dipping into his GM successor's pocket to help him escape a situation of his own doing. Not to mind that we've been hemorrhaging futures for nothing for awhile now, which will come back to bite us eventually, and puts a lot of pressure on prospects like Knies and Niemela.

5. Yes I know that a number of GM's react emotionally in their boxes while watching playoff games, cheering or looking despondent. But Kyle is very emotionally involved, shown in all the GIFs of his playoff reactions. A person who is confident in their process is not so emotionally involved IMO, but rather adopts a more stoic attitude, knowing that they've put together the best team that they can, and accepting that team's fate. Kyle's hyperactive emotions to me betray an uncertainty in his process.

Hemorrhaging assets? Have you seen what other teams gave up/have given up? They haven’t dipped into the prospect pool at all, and aside from the foligno trade have done a good job hanging onto assets.
Florida doesn’t have a 1st and has one second until that 2025 pick you’re so worried about. If anything he’s one of the better GM’s this team has had WRT balancing the competitive window the clubs in now and leaving pieces in the cupboard for the future.
I do agree with him waiting too long to sign players, he did learn that “if you have time use it” from his predecessor.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Ah the mark of a true champion.
We just have to wait until the other teams suck and hope nobody else gets good.

Then we are golden.

That's the Dubas plan. Wait everyone out and then strike. Like with the Habs

 

[Gabriel426]

Trading Willie doesn’t have with cap structure of the team.
It is one of the 10mil plus guys that needed to be traded to properly structure the team.
Trading out Willie and not resigning Mik will free up 8.8mil.
But then you need to replace them too. Let’s say two players at 4.4mil. It is a lateral step. As there will be nothing left over to reinforce other areas of the team like goaltending.
The guy needs to be traded is JT, it frees up so much cap space and room to improve in all areas of the team. But Dubas won’t have the balls to do that. If Masai is in charge, pretty sure JT would be packing his bags despite having a NTC.

 

[Nylanderthal]

Trading Willie doesn’t have with cap structure of the team.
It is one of the 10mil plus guys that needed to be traded to properly structure the team.
Trading out Willie and not resigning Mik will free up 8.8mil.
But then you need to replace them too. Let’s say two players at 4.4mil. It is a lateral step. As there will be nothing left over to reinforce other areas of the team like goaltending.
The guy needs to be traded is JT, it frees up so much cap space and room to improve in all areas of the team. But Dubas won’t have the balls to do that. If Masai is in charge, pretty sure JT would be packing his bags despite having a NTC.

How many years did masai sit on his hands watching his team not meet expectations before making that ONE trade? How many times did he overpay and bring in the wrong guys? Corey Joseph, deandre Carroll etc etc….
Look I love masai, he’s a top executive in the league, but he’s gonna eat for the rest of his life off a swing for the fences that actually worked out.
I feel like a lot of you who make this masai comparison are only surface level basketball fans

 

[All Mod Cons]

Prefacing this post with the statement that I respect Kyle Dubas as a person, and find it quite impressive that he's risen to such a professional position so relatively early in his life.

However, things I don't like about Dubas:

1. He says nothing in his press conferences. He basically says we're going to look at and try to improve everything, which is what every GM should be doing by default. But we never really get glimpses or insight into his philosophy on team-building, beyond cliches about character and "a 5'10 player is the same as a 6'5 player" stuff. It makes you wonder; does he have an actual philosophy or just stat sheets?

2. He seems vulnerable to outside pressure, again a sign of him lacking a hard-won philosophy on team success, which he would commit to fully. He tries to appease too many philosophies: a little bit of toughness, a little bit of mentorship, a little bit of grinding, a little bit of speed, a little bit of everything. I still have issues discerning our team identity at key moments; what are we? A good offensive team with a bottom 6 that can't score in the crunch. A good defensive team with mediocre goaltending. A fast team with an ancient fourth line. When I watch Pittsburgh, I see a clear identity: fast, fast, fast. St. Louis: balance, balance, balance. Tampa Bay: a skilled team that can grind with the best of them. Colorado: an offensive dynamo, with offence spread throughout the lineup. Good luck shutting them out in an elimination game. An identity holds a team together through obstacles, while we seem to fall apart in the face of obstacles. An identity comes from a singular vision rather than a Frankenstein collection of different visions.

3. He's too player friendly. Yes, it's good for your players to feel comfortable, but sometimes people need to be made to feel uncomfortable, to help push themselves to the next level. They need to receive a message from someone whose experience commands respect, rather than someone who demands respect with fake eyeglasses. I'd just prefer a lot more distance between our front office and our group of players to be honest.

4. His disregard for the team's future, and disrespect for the next GM of the Leafs. I don't know why, but him trading a potential 2nd rounder in 2025 to get out of the Nick Ritchie mistake bothers me. Of course, people talk about that cost as nothing, but it won't feel like nothing in 2025. It just felt to me like he was dipping into his GM successor's pocket to help him escape a situation of his own doing. Not to mind that we've been hemorrhaging futures for nothing for awhile now, which will come back to bite us eventually, and puts a lot of pressure on prospects like Knies and Niemela.

5. Yes I know that a number of GM's react emotionally in their boxes while watching playoff games, cheering or looking despondent. But Kyle is very emotionally involved, shown in all the GIFs of his playoff reactions. A person who is confident in their process is not so emotionally involved IMO, but rather adopts a more stoic attitude, knowing that they've put together the best team that they can, and accepting that team's fate. Kyle's hyperactive emotions to me betray an uncertainty in his process.

I think he did have a philosophy and thought he'd spotted a glitch in the matrix. Once he realized he was wrong and it didn't work, I think he took a bit of a hit and now isn't 100% sure what he wants to do. He doesn't know where grit/hard to play against/tenacious/relentless players should fit in the lineup and how to get them there.

He also doesn't seem to be able successfully identify non-date driven attributes.

 

[hotpaws]

Hemorrhaging assets? Have you seen what other teams gave up/have given up? They haven’t dipped into the prospect pool at all, and aside from the foligno trade have done a good job hanging onto assets.
Florida doesn’t have a 1st and has one second until that 2025 pick you’re so worried about. If anything he’s one of the better GM’s this team has had WRT balancing the competitive window the clubs in now and leaving pieces in the cupboard for the future.
I do agree with him waiting too long to sign players, he did learn that “if you have time use it” from his predecessor.

too bad his predecessor didn't teach him to know when he actually had time

How many years did masai sit on his hands watching his team not meet expectations before making that ONE trade? How many times did he overpay and bring in the wrong guys? Corey Joseph, deandre Carroll etc etc….
Look I love masai, he’s a top executive in the league, but he’s gonna eat for the rest of his life off a swing for the fences that actually worked out.
I feel like a lot of you who make this masai comparison are only surface level basketball fans

too bad Masai couldn't eat off accomplishing nothing like Dubas does

and if you think all he did was the Leonard trade then you haven;t followed the Raps at all

 

[Nylanderthal]

too bad his predecessor didn't teach him to know when he actually had time


too bad Masai couldn't eat off accomplishing nothing like Dubas does

and if you think all he did was the Leonard trade then you haven;t followed the Raps at all

How many years did masai accomplish nothing before that deal? You’re right he fleeced NY in the bargnani trade but also had to give away assets to move off some brutal deals he signed.
Of course he made more than that one move, but that’s the one continually referenced around here as the kind of move the hockey club needs.
Which I would be on board with. If you can package Willy robertson and 25oa for mackinnon And compher I’m all for it. (That would be the comparable deal, that’s how ludicrous it was)
Most of you want to trade good players for nothing in the name of “depth” and “balancing” And then suggest a bunch of replacement level guys who can be picked up in FA every year.

 

[hotpaws]

How many years did masai accomplish nothing before that deal? You’re right he fleeced NY in the bargnani trade but also had to give away assets to move off some brutal deals he signed.
Of course he made more than that one move, but that’s the one continually referenced around here as the kind of move the hockey club needs.
Which I would be on board with. If you can package Willy robertson and 25oa for mackinnon And compher I’m all for it. (That would be the comparable deal, that’s how ludicrous it was)
Most of you want to trade good players for nothing in the name of “depth” and “balancing” And then suggest a bunch of replacement level guys who can be picked up in FA every year.

why don't you take a good look at where the Raps were when he took over and how many rds he won before they actually won the title

and it's sad a few Leaf fans feel compelled to crap on Masai and the Raps in a pathetic attempt to defend Dubie's failure

 

[rocketman588]

How many years did masai sit on his hands watching his team not meet expectations before making that ONE trade? How many times did he overpay and bring in the wrong guys? Corey Joseph, deandre Carroll etc etc….
Look I love masai, he’s a top executive in the league, but he’s gonna eat for the rest of his life off a swing for the fences that actually worked out.
I feel like a lot of you who make this masai comparison are only surface level basketball fans

Masai as GM as the raptors ( key trades, don't care about the little ones)

Year 1 trades Rudy gay for the package that wins division loses round one. Trades bargs to NY for fields

Year 2
Trades for Lou Williams
Signs James Johnson
Loses in 4

Year 3 conf finals loss
Trades Vasquez to Milwaukee for Powell
Signs caroll
Byiombo
Scola
Joseph

Let's
Lou Williams and amir walk

Year 4 conf semis loss to cavs
Signs freddy as undrafted
Signs Jared sullinger

Trades Terrence Ross for ibaka

Less scola and James Johnson walk

Year 5 conf semis loss to cavs
Trades Carroll
Trades Joseph ( allows Freddy to shine)

Let's pj tucker and Patterson walk

Year 6 title
Trades
Kawhi
Marc gasol
Danny green


Fires head coach

Dude did anything but "sit on his hands".

He made a minnimum of one big addition and subtraction through free agent decisions or trades a year. He also turned every "bad deal" into a massive plus within two moves. Corey Joseph btw wasn't a bad move it allowed us to develop Freddy. Carroll and Johnson probably were

If he was Kyle dubas we'd still have Lou Williams in year 6 because he scores points.

 

[Nylanderthal]

why don't you take a good look at where the Raps were when he took over and how many rds he won before they actually won the title

and it's sad a few Leaf fans feel compelled to crap on Masai and the Raps in a pathetic attempt to defend Dubie's failure

I’m not crapping on Masai, I literally said he’s a top executive in the league. First round of the NBA is lopsided and not even a true contest. Look at how many series are sweeps/5 game series each year. Also not downplaying the teams success in raw outcomes, just that both teams had/have failed to meet expectations for long periods of time.
To me it’s sad posters around here crap on ppg 2way C’s who have excellent metrics in important parts of the game in order to justify their miserable existence on this forum.
We all want the leafs to succeed I really don’t care who is at the helm when they achieve that goal, it’s just fairly obvious to those with a brain that this management group is as competent and capable as the leafs have had in their long existence, at least in the 30 plus years I’ve been closely paying attention.

 

[rocketman588]

I’m not crapping on Masai, I literally said he’s a top executive in the league. First round of the NBA is lopsided and not even a true contest. Look at how many series are sweeps/5 game series each year. Also not downplaying the teams success in raw outcomes, just that both teams had/have failed to meet expectations for long periods of time.
To me it’s sad posters around here crap on ppg 2way C’s who have excellent metrics in important parts of the game in order to justify their miserable existence on this forum.
We all want the leafs to succeed I really don’t care who is at the helm when they achieve that goal, it’s just fairly obvious to those with a brain that this management group is as competent and capable as the leafs have had in their long existence, at least in the 30 plus years I’ve been closely paying attention.

You realize the NBA is lopsided in a way that disfavors the raptors right? It's basically fixed towards 4 big American cities which makes it even more impressive what he did

You're the one who also claims we can't evaluate dubas on the playoffs so you should enjoy that format anyways.

People are shitting on a ppg forward because he's the 5th highest paid player in the league and is a second line FW that has a difficult time driving play. If he was that valuable he wouldn't have the most difficult contract in the league to move.

Masai exceeded expectations for all but 2 years basically

We were absolutely shit and people wanted us to tank for Wiggins his first year dude.

The only real disappointments were the sweep vs Washington which was horrific (Masai let his 3rd best scorer to walk after and beefed his front line up)

And the second sweep vs Cleveland where he fired the coach who by the way won the coach of the year and set the franchise win record. You can argue sweep one vs the Cavs as well as possibly being a disappointment

He made the conf finals year three with a team that was a garbage dumpster that had a shot to be the worst in the league when he took over.

 

[rocketman588]

The raps equivalent of dubas is collangelo do got the job because of his dad's rep then only signed euros and made us the softest team in the league.

We also got pounded in the playoffs in the first round during his era despite solid regular seasons

 

[Gabriel426]

How many years did masai sit on his hands watching his team not meet expectations before making that ONE trade? How many times did he overpay and bring in the wrong guys? Corey Joseph, deandre Carroll etc etc….
Look I love masai, he’s a top executive in the league, but he’s gonna eat for the rest of his life off a swing for the fences that actually worked out.
I feel like a lot of you who make this masai comparison are only surface level basketball fans

Masai kept tinkering the supporting cast hoping it would work out. Mainly bc he knows the top guys are not available. For years, Raptors prided themselves on having great depth and when it comes to playoffs, depth meant little.
Joseph was a bench player, he wasn’t sign to be anything but a bench player. Unless you think he was signed to replace Kyle. That’s like our bottom 6. Carroll was supposed to be the defensive stopper that would stop or at least contains Lebron. Bc he showed in a playoffs that he could. Ofcourse that didn’t happened.
Masai can and will make the tough decisions but Dubas can’t seem to do that yet.

 

[Gabriel426]

I’m not crapping on Masai, I literally said he’s a top executive in the league. First round of the NBA is lopsided and not even a true contest. Look at how many series are sweeps/5 game series each year. Also not downplaying the teams success in raw outcomes, just that both teams had/have failed to meet expectations for long periods of time.
To me it’s sad posters around here crap on ppg 2way C’s who have excellent metrics in important parts of the game in order to justify their miserable existence on this forum.
We all want the leafs to succeed I really don’t care who is at the helm when they achieve that goal, it’s just fairly obvious to those with a brain that this management group is as competent and capable as the leafs have had in their long existence, at least in the 30 plus years I’ve been closely paying attention.

1. I assume you are referring to JT when mentioned 2 way C. To me he ain’t working for the Leafs and if the Leafs want to win the Cup, tough decisions are needed. Masai traded away DD, at that time to Alpha of Raptors. He also fired the reigning Coach of the Year.
2. Dubas and Shanny are not perfect just like any other MGTs in the league. Which means they will make mistakes. Don’t see why we as fans can’t hold them accountable on their mistakes.

 

[Gabriel426]

The raps equivalent of dubas is collangelo do got the job because of his dad's rep then only signed euros and made us the softest team in the league.

We also got pounded in the playoffs in the first round during his era despite solid regular seasons

I forgot about Collangelo and how at that time MGT and medias kept talking up Andrea like the next big thing.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

1. I assume you are referring to JT when mentioned 2 way C. To me he ain’t working for the Leafs and if the Leafs want to win the Cup, tough decisions are needed. Masai traded away DD, at that time to Alpha of Raptors. He also fired the reigning Coach of the Year.
2. Dubas and Shanny are not perfect just like any other MGTs in the league. Which means they will make mistakes. Don’t see why we as fans can’t hold them accountable on their mistakes.

To be fair, Leafs version of "holding them accountable" is very different than most other fanbases.

Accountability here seems to be "fired". That seems to be the only "accountability" that people want out of them, and for many, it has been that way the beginning before they even did anything that should make people cringe. They've taken more than an appropriate amount of responsibility for other things that have gone wrong with this team over the past 3 or 4 years, and have received an unjustifiable amount of flak relative to their success.

That doesn't happen anywhere else except maybe Montreal.

 

[Gabriel426]

To be fair, Leafs version of "holding them accountable" is very different than most other fanbases.

Accountability here seems to be "fired". That seems to be the only "accountability" that people want out of them. They've taken more than an appropriate amount of responsibility for other things that have gone wrong with this team over the past 3 or 4 years, and have received an unjustifiable amount of flak relative to their success.

That doesn't happen anywhere else except maybe Montreal.

I would say some fans not all. Also, it has been a few years.
Let’s not kid ourselves, this is not a one or two years thing.

 

[francis246]

The raps equivalent of dubas is collangelo do got the job because of his dad's rep then only signed euros and made us the softest team in the league.

We also got pounded in the playoffs in the first round during his era despite solid regular seasons

the crazy thing is Colangelo was way ahead of his time. The team he was trying to build would have been a championship team in todays day and age. Having your bigs be able to shoot 3's. Have your team full of shooters, with good rebounders. It's basically how the warriors are built. Bargnani is a player that would have tremendous success in the NBA today.

happens sometimes.

 

[rocketman588]

I forgot about Collangelo and how at that time MGT and medias kept talking up Andrea like the next big thing.

I absolutely hated those teams they were my version of the Kessel leafs.

I didn't mind the bargs pick and still don't think it was terrible. He definitely wasn't as good as advirtised but probably could have been a solid number 3 on a good team.

Us trying to force him to rebound was what killed his career

 

[rocketman588]

the crazy thing is Colangelo was way ahead of his time. The team he was trying to build would have been a championship team in todays day and age. Having your bigs be able to shoot 3's. Have your team full of shooters, with good rebounders. It's basically how the warriors are built. Bargnani is a player that would have tremendous success in the NBA today.

happens sometimes.

There were stretch bigs before bargs we brought him in to try to be dirk.

We weren't really loaded with shooters and rebounders we had IL mago and Bosh and like a bunch of average dudes because Collangelo decided Toronto couldn't get good Americans to come. Bargs issue was mostly that he wasn't a good enough stretch 5 to make it work and Bosh was already a dude who could step out to 15.

His can't get players to come to TO philosophy is very similar to our "there's less draft value in the CHL" drafting theory

He did come before mlse really got it's shit together so who knows.