Canada4Gold
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WJC: Scenarios
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Canada4Gold
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I just typed this up manually so it's possible there may be an error in there. If you think there's an error let me know. If you're not sure why a scenario leaves a team in a certain place don't hesitate to ask. I will explain, or if I've made an error will correct it.
Unfortunately can't do the tables this year which are easier to read because there are 3 games in each pool left, and I can't do a 3D table. If I wait until after today's games it's simplified enough there's no need for a table, so I decided to do it now in this form.
Unfortunately can't do the tables this year which are easier to read because there are 3 games in each pool left, and I can't do a 3D table. If I wait until after today's games it's simplified enough there's no need for a table, so I decided to do it now in this form.
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ORRFForever
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Canada4Gold
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Not trying to steal anything, just like having the scenarios out there for people to see. I do it every year, though usually wait until the final day, but the different schedule this year allowed me to get it out there early.
ORRFForever
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I THINK you are wrong if :
Sweden beats the U.S. and Russia in regulation and the Czechs beat Austria in regulation.
In that case :
Sweden has 12 points
Russia, the U.S. and the Czechs have 6.
The goal diff is used to eliminate the Czechs and they finish 4th.
Once it is down to 2 teams, head to head puts Russia in 2nd and the U.S. in 3rd.
ORRFForever
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TBH, I've seen elimination different ways when there are 3 teams.
In some elimination systems, they use a tie breaker to remove one team and then they start over with the 2 remaining teams - using head to head.
Not sure how the IIHF does it so I could be wrong.
In some elimination systems, they use a tie breaker to remove one team and then they start over with the 2 remaining teams - using head to head.
Not sure how the IIHF does it so I could be wrong.
Canada4Gold
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They only revert to h2h in a 3 way tie if 1 step doesn't completely separate the teams. In that h2h goal difference will completely separate the teams. USA will get 2nd on h2h GD(+5), Russia 3rd on h2h GD(Even) and Czech 4th on h2h GD(-5). They would only revert if USA and Russia were tied on h2h GD and the Czechs were clear 4th, then rather than going to the next step they'd revert to the h2h.
ORRFForever
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I don't know. I'm not sure that's clear. Either way : I'm sure TSN will shed some light and run thru the scenarios.
Canada4Gold
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TSN literally gone this exact same thing wrong 3 or 4 tournament ago, only to correct themselves the next day.
It's pretty clear
This process will continue until only two or none of the teams remain tied. In the case of two tied teams remaining, the game between the two would then be the determining tie-breaker as the game could not end as a tie. In the case of none of the teams being tied, the criteria specified in the respective step applies.
In step 2 head to head goal difference none of the teams remain tied. USA is +5, Russia is Even, the Czechs are -5. The rule literally says in the case where none of the teams remain tied that criteria is used. USA gets 2nd, Russia 3rd, Czechs 4th.
ORRFForever
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ORRFForever
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Canada4Gold
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We can agree to disagree. This isn't a competition.
No, one would assume it's a collaboration to intepret the rules correctly, but the one who worries about having his thunder stolen surely doesn't think it's a competition
ORRFForever
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Good Lord.No, one would assume it's a collaboration to intepret the rules correctly, but the one who worries about having his thunder stolen surely doesn't think it's a competition
Canada4Gold
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If we must have precedent to prove something that's pretty clearly written in the rules, here's the 2012 U18 with a 3 way Russia/Latvia/Germany tie at 6 points and the following h2h results:
Russia 6-1 Latvia
Germany 4-2 Russia
Latvia 5-4 Germany
Head to Head Goal Difference:
Russia +3
Germany +1
Latvia -4
If we eliminated Latvia and then used h2h between Germany and Russia Germany would have gotten 2nd place because they beat Russia. But Russia got 2nd place between they won the 3 way h2h goal difference. Germany then got 3rd using the same step, rather than the h2h with Latvia which Latvia would have won. The 1 step seperated all 3 teams.
2012 IIHF World U18 Championships - Wikipedia
Russia 6-1 Latvia
Germany 4-2 Russia
Latvia 5-4 Germany
Head to Head Goal Difference:
Russia +3
Germany +1
Latvia -4
If we eliminated Latvia and then used h2h between Germany and Russia Germany would have gotten 2nd place because they beat Russia. But Russia got 2nd place between they won the 3 way h2h goal difference. Germany then got 3rd using the same step, rather than the h2h with Latvia which Latvia would have won. The 1 step seperated all 3 teams.
2012 IIHF World U18 Championships - Wikipedia
Canada4Gold
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Pool A is simple. Canada/Finland winner gets 1st, loser 2nd, Germany is 3rd, Slovakia 4th. Switzerland last.
Pool B is more complex
Russia is 1st if USA beats Sweden in OT/SO. Otherwise they're 2nd
USA is 1st if they win in regulation, 2nd if they win in OT/SO, 3rd if they lose
Sweden if 1st if they beat USA, 3rd if they lose. They cannot finish 2nd
Czechs are 4th if they don't lose to Austria in regulation , or 5th if they do
Austria is 4th if they win in regulation, 5th if they don't
Pool B is more complex
Russia is 1st if USA beats Sweden in OT/SO. Otherwise they're 2nd
USA is 1st if they win in regulation, 2nd if they win in OT/SO, 3rd if they lose
Sweden if 1st if they beat USA, 3rd if they lose. They cannot finish 2nd
Czechs are 4th if they don't lose to Austria in regulation , or 5th if they do
Austria is 4th if they win in regulation, 5th if they don't
Canada4Gold
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This feels easier to read
Sweden Win:
1. Sweden
2. Russia
3. USA
USA OT/SO Win:
1.Russia
2. USA
3. Sweden
USA Regulation Win:
1. USA
2. Russia
3. Sweden
--------------------------
Czech Republic Win:
4. Czech Republic
5. Austria
Austria OT/SO Win:
4. Czech Republic
5. Austria
Austria Regulation Win:
4. Austria
5. Czech Republic
----------------------------
Canada Win:
1. Canada
2. Finland
3. Germany
4. Slovakia
5. Switzerland
Finland Win:
1. Finland
2. Canada
3. Germany
4. Slovakia
5. Switzerland
Sweden Win:
1. Sweden
2. Russia
3. USA
USA OT/SO Win:
1.Russia
2. USA
3. Sweden
USA Regulation Win:
1. USA
2. Russia
3. Sweden
--------------------------
Czech Republic Win:
4. Czech Republic
5. Austria
Austria OT/SO Win:
4. Czech Republic
5. Austria
Austria Regulation Win:
4. Austria
5. Czech Republic
----------------------------
Canada Win:
1. Canada
2. Finland
3. Germany
4. Slovakia
5. Switzerland
Finland Win:
1. Finland
2. Canada
3. Germany
4. Slovakia
5. Switzerland
Hockey makes tie systems so complicated, would an OT against US tomorrow put Sweden in first or second? I'm assuming it will put USA last of three because of an regular loss and worse goal difference between the three? I also assume therefor that it would put Russia first because they would have a better goaldifference between the three? Or does it go automatically to goal difference overall if teams end up with the same amount of points?
Canada4Gold
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and OT what? win or loss? Any win puts Sweden 1st because it would give them 9 or 10 points which is more than Russia, and USA.
An OT loss puts them 3rd. It would give Sweden 1 more point to get to 8. It would give USA 2 more points to get to 8. Russia is already at 8 so you'd have a 3 way tie. The first timebreaker is head to head Results. Russia beat USA in regulation(3 points) and beat Sweden in OT(2 points) so they have 5 head to head points. USA lost to Russia in regulation(0 points) and in this example beats Sweden in OT(2 points) for 2 head to head points. Sweden lost to Russia in OT(1 point) and in this example loses to USA in OT/SO(1 point) for 2 head to head points. Therefore Russia is 1st via this step and Sweden/USA remain tied. 2 way ties are broken by head to head so USA/Sweden would revert to that, and in this example USA beats Sweden and would get 2nd
From OP:
Whops meant OT loss, and you are right, Sweden would be 3rd.
But I think not because of the reason you pointed out.
Atleast in soccer I think within a threeway tie, you always bunch them together, and never look at individual scores between them.
But I think USA would get 2nd place because they'd have (-1 goal difference between the three, meanwhile Sweden would have -2), I might be very wrong though.
Canada4Gold
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IIHF rules are different. It doesn't go to goal difference first, it goes to points in h2h results.
IIHF - Tournament Info 2021 IIHF WORLD JUNIOR CHAMPIONSHIP
Step 1
Canada4Gold
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No worries. When I just post the results without explaining the reason for them I should expect to get questions, and the questions are absolutely fair. There's no reason for someone to just believe a random person on the internet unless they explain their logic.
