RW Matvei Michkov (2023, 7th, PHI) Part 4

[cg98]

Nobody called him trash(strawman as usual) but if that is the standart of your rebuttals the lol. How have you disproven the SKA issue? By using ""?
And yes, he was not motivated to play for NT vs Belarus. Glotov and Zykov were, but Michkov is above this. Correct.

Go on, show me this "evidence" should be fun.

And stop crying already

Stop crying. Please lol. That’s all you BEEN doing. You’ve based your wrong opinions on nothing but your own emotion to tear down Michkov as a player and you’ve brought absolutely nothing of value to discuss about except you whining. How about YOU stop crying and having wrong opinions lol.

Here’s a bunch of fat Ls you took

The Russian users didn't talk about anything else.. but after the U20 World Cup this thread was flooded with garbage (see the first posts here after the opening). Some of your post liker know what Im talking about.

@Opener, "has produced at a very respectable rate in the 10 games he has played so far". It is not a "very respectable rate", we are talking about the best PPG this league has seen like ever (but thanks otherwise for a good opening with links and a little introduction):

(draft eligible U19 min 10 games)

And, like it was mentioned here many times before, he is doing that beeing smaller/lighter than everyone on this list while playing for the worst team the KHL has seen like ever (just a fact). He shouldn't even be playing in the KHL with his physique, let alone being the top player on his KHL team.

Generally speaking, what it means is that Michkov wasn't getting the ice time necessary for development, so they decided to loan him to a team where he would receive more ice time and hence where he would have an easier time developing.

Such a system would benefit NHL as well. Wouldn't it be great if a top contender could loan a high-end prospect to a bottom team like Blackhawks or Ducks for development instead of having to sit him around as a healthy scratch, or send him down to AHL?

Isn`t as pro? He has record\near record season in second best pro league for player of his age. You have 3-4 years of steady calm life. Than you will regret about everything you said. And you said a lot. Like flyers, you should invest a lot in this years. But like Boston it`s the end of your prime. Use it wisely.

Bedard scored 13 points on 2 terrible teams at WJC, still counts as a record. And why didn't Zavgorodny, who had 67 points in 40 games CHL season a few years ago, score all those points?

And which of his 5 points were scored because of goalie?

Are you a racist? I don't understand why you are focusing on the nationality of the Kunlun goaltender. If he is the goaltender of the KHL club, then he has a certain level of skill.

Never saw anybody insisted that Michkov scored all of his points against elite KHLers either. He just scored them in the KHL, and his PPG was record for 1st year draft players, nothing more nothing less...

As to whether his KHL records matter or not, look at top KHL scorers and top scorers from other leagues who've moved to NHL and become solid players and even stars...

For all you crapping on Kunlun... Their #4/5 defenseman, Ryan Sproul, won CHL defenceman of the year in 2013.
What do you think he'd do vs CHL kids, or the NCAA, as a 30 year old seasoned vet? That's right, Kunlun's 4/5th defenseman would annihilate those leagues.

Yet somehow torching Kunlun is a negative for Michkov?
If that's the case might as well throw all Bedard and Fantilli's achievements out the window also.

Lol… Him playing in a top euro league kinda contradicts what you say… talking about bias. And Michkov was in two games against SKA one of if not the best player on the ice (at least in one game he was). That’s better than everything Bedard, Carlsson or Fantilli had ever to deal with. And about “not good enough for the WC”, Bedard played sommer hockey instead of Hungary. I would have too. Michkov lackrossed the Swedish senior team 16 years old, he doesn’t need to prove him against D-Level competition. Fantilli and Carlsson had to… and looked mediocre. Like they always do on international stage.

Ahh, that's right. I forgot 16 year old Michkov lacrossed Gustaf Lindvall, who was 3rd in both SHL save% and GAA that year. Not to mention he won SHL Goalie of the Year 2 years previous.

But I still agree with Garl. Only Superman Carlsson can score on such fantastic SHL goaltending. Michkov has significantly regressed from his 16 year old self and can only light-up Chinese goalies these days.
There's no hope for poor Mavei.

KHL teams in general are in the "win now" mode, they don't care about showcasing or inflating stats for young players, but for that mode you just put your trust on the experienced guys, as they are proven to deliver the result. Michkov's Sochi team was an exception here, as they were dead last when he arrived, yet still he got just under 16 minutes of TOI there, which is sort of understandable though, as he wasn't too ready physically.

It may be hard to comprehend for some folks, but a 30 year old career KHLer is often much better than a 17-18 year old future NHL star. Coaches don't stand behind the bench admiring their great talent, they see a player who is skilled, but hasn't fully adapted to the adult hockey and may lack some qualities that are necessary in the KHL. They don't care about the player being a high draft pick (it's not their draft pick) and play then on merit.

If Michkov's career so far isn't impressive, I don't know what is. Scoring 7 points in a junior game against some bunch of losers who'll never even sniff professional hockey? If you want a player to contend for the KHL scoring title in his draft year, I'm sorry to break it for you, prospects like that never existed and likely never will.

First, he scored 4 points… check your facts first, stat watcher… Second, about the series with Belarus, Michkov/Russia destroyed Belarus in the first two games 10:2, Michkov was 1+1 and everything was said and done. Nobody wanted to play against Belarus again and the players of both teams admitted that they had massive motivation problems… besides that, as stat watchers like Garl the great can’t know, Michkov didnt play much in the last games … in some he was the 13th forward and played only few seconds/minutes, every time when Rotenbergs Russia looked like shit and they needed some momentum.

Your argument is well known. You'be been saying the same thing for 75 pages. We get it already.
You're wrong, but your opinion is acknowledged.


I have yet to understand why certain posters feel the need to come to this thread and downplay and 18 year old's achiements like a broken record....over and over and over and over again.
It's weird, seriously.

No, you're coming to this thread ad nauseam saying the same crap over and over again. You're going around in circles.

It'd be cool to actually discuss Michkov instead of Garl showing up every day telling how Michkov's season was a disappointment and how CARLSSON IS BETTER!!!!

Jesus Christ enough already.
.

Lol what? Michkov had a generational year


Not only is 20 points in 30 games impressive for a 17 year old in the world's 2nd biggest league that's much lower scoring in the NHL, the fact he did it with 3rd line minutes and a putrid team makes it the best KHL season of any draft year player ever. What do you mean?

Put into context, the leading scorer on Sochi last year had 30 points in 55 games. Matvei had 20 points in 27 games. That's pretty impressive.

The CHL is a hilarious joke compared to mens hockey. As has been pointed out - some friggin' depth guy on Red Star Kunlun won CHL d-man of the year. Its a kids league.

Bedard hasnt played any team on Red Star Kunlun's tier, like ever. Half of his regular competition consists of future accountants, delivery drivers and construction workers.

More money paid. Better players playing there. Its easy as that. Bunch of the best swedes and finns are not even playing in their home leagues. Why? Why someone like Hartikainnen or swedes like Omark or Tömmernes played in the NLA instead of the great SHL… The talent pool in the KHL is even without the imports bigger. If not for money, half of the KHL would play as a bottom 6 in the NHL, in the AHL or somewhere in Europe. But why should they play for peanuts in the SHL? Yeah, only Garl can answer that.

You seem to have forgot a question mark there, bud. The point is that Michkov played against much tougher opponents. He has excelled at every level he's played. And if you didn't know, Kunlun finished above Sochi in the regular season and won 3 and lost 3 vs Sochi. Again, Kunlun would spank every CHL team.

Cause you have no arguments. Zero. Your point SHL > KHL isn’t based on any facts only on your (wrong) opinion… Your point with the Chinese goalie is as bad… again, Michkov outscored Russian 1st round talent with Miroshnichenko or Yurov on one leg. The two played in the same (weak) KHL against the same weak Chinese team. Yurov had 0 Points in the K in his draft year. Miro didn’t played a single second, only VHL. He had 16 points in 31 VHL games (Michkov had 10 goals in 12 games)… and cancer… and went nevertheless 20 OA. Michkovs 20 points in 27 games in the K are in every way exceptional. In his D+1 year Miro had 4 points in 23 games. Yurov had 12 in 59 games…Besides that, can you show us 1 single scout report about Michkov not being at least the 2nd most talented player of this draft? You cant. Cause outside of maybe Anaheim, Columbus and your own world, nobody argues that Michkov is at least the second best prospect of this draft.

Are you saying that chinese people can't play goalie?

You can only play against the opponents in front of you.

He had 20 points in 27 KHL games.

And 2 points in 4 games in the only real international tournament at senior level he's played. As a 16-year old.

It's so head-scratching that you don't even seem to have any real opinion on Michkov, aside from your 'Carlsson's better' shtick (which is obviously your opinion to have). Yet you choose an idea that has been proven factually wrong like 20 times in this exact thread (Michkov's draft season not being exceptional) and keep defending it like it decides the fate of the planet

The problem with your logic is you can't take away games. Sochi was the worst team in the league. So by your logic, Michkov had non-"normal" teammates. That would effect scoring, no?

One more thing. I find your rationale with respect to Bedard as disingenuous. You are taking Bedard's points at face value when comparing them to other prospects in the same league that preceded him, but when it comes to Michkov, instead of doing the same, you want to take away points, in an attempt to validate your position. It's pretty weak.

That’s just this thread, not even the other ones closed up. Not good lol

 

[Garl]

What a bunch of nonsense LMAO

How am I supposed to answer such a wall of text?
Lets make it simple
1. He did not make SKA. This point just wasn't adressed at all. Think about it before you start shouting again. If Demidov makes SKA and plays a significant role there next year, what will you do? Eat that wall of text?
2.His play for NT was not adressed much either. Just the "Muh he was not motivated" dismissive nonsense. Well too bad, maybe he was not motivated to make SKA aswell?
3.Michkov had the best statistical season in KHL. It is true. What does this mean? Did it matter that he played for a team that gave him way more ice time than usual for 18 yo? Did it matter that he played 2 games late in the season when nothing was at stake against a team with the absolute by far worst goalie in the league? Where is that seriously adressed? Only "muh points are points" "muh KHL is 2nd best league"

So, what are the "fat Ls" you keep yapping about? Continious claims that my argument is "Carlsson is better", even though I have never said that? Or me being a racist for pointing out that Kunlun used a BCHL level goalie who happens to be from China and trained in China, because Kunlun is from China?

Great evidence.

Seriously, you guys are like a sect. Calm down, draft is over already

 

[Guadana]

Because there are some huge stupid arguments, I`m starting this idiotic arguments, that didn`t work at all, too. Let`s juggle arguments.
Bedard did not make SKA.
Bedard didn`t even play against NCAA and SHL level of competition.
Bedard`s play for NT was not adressed much either. Because he didn`t play there at all.
Bedard hadn`t even the best statistical season in WHL for his age. And Rob Brown was good and sometimes was meh.

So we should have draft with Fantilli as FOA, Carlsson as second OA, Bedard as third overall(I believe columbus fans would be amidietly ok if Bissonette would say that he was bullied by Bedard and how bad his character is) and Michkov as 58 OA.

 

[Snotbubbles]

My problem was with the "generational season" claim thats it.

Regarding pts, we do compare prospects not only on merit of points, circumstances do matter. I think Sam Gagner scored more points in his DY than Stamkos did, but we knew the circumstaces, that Gagner played with Kane.

Here it is similar. Michkov did benefit from having 2 late season games with Kunlun and their chinese goalie. It is obvious. Yes, by stats it is the best season ever by 18 yo player in KHL.
Lets say, next season Demidov scores 20 pts in 37 games for SKA. But that would not be best ever right? 20 in 37 for SKA would be worse than 20 in 27 for Sochi where 8 pts came from 2 late season Kunlun games.

For the record, if Demidov scores 20 in 37 for SKA or smth similar, I dont know what would have to be done by other prospects, so that I would not consider him a favorite for the 1st overall

But if you're going to make those distinctions, then you should make them for everyone. If you're going to discredit Michkov because of X, then you should look into Ovechkin to see if any factors of X are present for him. You either need to normalize EVERYONE or no one.

 

[Garl]

But if you're going to make those distinctions, then you should make them for everyone. If you're going to discredit Michkov because of X, then you should look into Ovechkin to see if any factors of X are present for him. You either need to normalize EVERYONE or no one.

This is an ideal situation which is never going to happen. Here, the issue is very obvious just like with Gagner. If someone remebers any issues like this with Ovechkin, no prob. He def did not play against chinese goalies though

 

[Garl]

Because there are some huge stupid arguments, I`m starting this idiotic arguments, that didn`t work at all, too. Let`s juggle arguments.
Bedard did not make SKA.
Bedard didn`t even play against NCAA and SHL level of competition.
Bedard`s play for NT was not adressed much either. Because he didn`t play there at all.
Bedard hadn`t even the best statistical season in WHL for his age. And Rob Brown was good and sometimes was meh.

So we should have draft with Fantilli as FOA, Carlsson as second OA, Bedard as third overall(I believe columbus fans would be amidietly ok if Bissonette would say that he was bullied by Bedard and how bad his character is) and Michkov as 58 OA.

Just because you call arguments stupid doesnt make them so

But yes you have summarized the type of responses to criticism of the "generational narrative" well. Mocking, ridiculous hyperbolas, and dodging, and deflection, and strawman and you even got Rob Brown smart*ss poke wrong

Relax already, I have nothing against Michkov, maybe he is back on track next season

 

[um]

Boy is there gonna be three more years of bickering? What a spicy thread.

 

[Caser]

This is an ideal situation which is never going to happen. Here, the issue is very obvious just like with Gagner. If someone remebers any issues like this with Ovechkin, no prob. He def did not play against chinese goalies though

Ovechkin certainly played against a horrible Torpedo team that year, which also was a total disaster. However as I already mentioned I totally hate to compare Ovechkin's numbers here at least without the adjustment for the much lower scoring that was there in that era.

 

[Garl]

Ovechkin certainly played against a horrible Torpedo team that year, which also was a total disaster. However as I already mentioned I totally hate to compare Ovechkin's numbers here at least without the adjustment for the much lower scoring that was there in that era.

Yeah, and he played for Bilyaletdinov aswell, russian(tatar) trapper

 

[Kshahdoo]

Boy is there gonna be three more years of bickering? What a spicy thread.

Garl is on a crusade to bring Michkov to justice...

 

[Frank Drebin]

But if you're going to make those distinctions, then you should make them for everyone. If you're going to discredit Michkov because of X, then you should look into Ovechkin to see if any factors of X are present for him. You either need to normalize EVERYONE or no one.

Well sure. That's the point, comparing these khl seasons is really kind of pointless.

You can say 20 pts in 27 games for an 18 year old in the khl is impressive.

But to say it's a better 18 year old season than the best goal scorer in history? I mean looking solely at the numbers, sure. But there is a lot of context missing when comparing.

Was Ovechkin playing 20minutes per game with 4 minutes of pp time in the khl? There are a lot of variables missing, not to mention the very small sample size that can be greatly influenced by a game or two.

 

[Snotbubbles]

Well sure. That's the point, comparing these khl seasons is really kind of pointless.

You can say 20 pts in 27 games for an 18 year old in the khl is impressive.

But to say it's a better 18 year old season than the best goal scorer in history? I mean looking solely at the numbers, sure. But there is a lot of context missing when comparing.

Was Ovechkin playing 20minutes per game with 4 minutes of pp time in the khl? There are a lot of variables missing, not to mention the very small sample size that can be greatly influenced by a game or two.

Totally agree, so since I don't have context, I'm happy to say that Michkov's season was extremely impressive. If someone provides some context about how much more impressive some other draft year players year was, I'd take that into consideration as well. It probably still wouldn't sway my opinion that Michkov's season was impressive and maybe the best ever for a Russian draftee playing in the KHL. I'm certainly not going to discount it because he scored points against a "Chinese goalie".

 

[Caser]

Well sure. That's the point, comparing these khl seasons is really kind of pointless.

You can say 20 pts in 27 games for an 18 year old in the khl is impressive.

But to say it's a better 18 year old season than the best goal scorer in history? I mean looking solely at the numbers, sure. But there is a lot of context missing when comparing.

Was Ovechkin playing 20minutes per game with 4 minutes of pp time in the khl? There are a lot of variables missing, not to mention the very small sample size that can be greatly influenced by a game or two.

If we think about it that way, Ovechkin was the 3rd scorer on the 9th team in goals scored, if we search for an equivalent for that in the KHL this season it would be Nick Merkley with 40 points in 67 games. Obviously a very rough approximation, but still better than to compare with the original stats.

 

[Garl]

Totally agree, so since I don't have context, I'm happy to say that Michkov's season was extremely impressive. If someone provides some context about how much more impressive some other draft year players year was, I'd take that into consideration as well. It probably still wouldn't sway my opinion that Michkov's season was impressive and maybe the best ever for a Russian draftee playing in the KHL. I'm certainly not going to discount it because he scored points against a "Chinese goalie".

What does "" mean here? He is not a chinese trained goalie with by far worst sv% in the league?
Context is, that he played, essentially on loan, because he didn't make it to a good team. And yes, out of 20 pts, he scored 8 in just 2 games against a team with a goaie from China.

What you don't understand?

Garl is on a crusade to bring Michkov to justice...

No, not at all, only his crazy groupies))

Michkov himself is fine, great young player, maybe a future star, we shall see.

 

[Caser]

What does "" mean here? He is not a chinese trained goalie with by far worst sv% in the league?
Context is, that he played, essentially on loan, because he didn't make it to a good team. And yes, out of 20 pts, he scored 8 in just 2 games against a team with a goaie from China.

What you don't understand?


No, not at all, only his crazy groupies))

Michkov himself is fine, great young player, maybe a future star, we shall see.

Didn't we already discussed it and found out that Michkov scored 6 points against Sun and 2 against Jurusik?

 

[Unger9]

Let's do a simple adjustment process to try to compare Ovechkin's draft year scoring to Michkov's. The raw points per game stats are 0.43 for Ovi's DY and 0.74 for Michkov in Sochi. Let's call the relative talent of the russian league at the time about equal between the two years

I went through the top 5 teams in the league during Ovechkin's draft year and retrieved the points per game of each of those teams' top 5 scorers. The average points per game was 0.598

Then I did the same thing for this past KHL season, 2022-23. The average was 0.729 points per game. So the ratio between Ovi's year and Michkov's year is 0.82, which means Michkov's adjusted points per game goes from 0.74 with Sochi, to 0.61 adjusted

After the adjustment, Michkov's 0.61 points per game is still markedly higher than Ovi's 0.43.

Michkov probably had slightly more opportunity than Ovi did, but Ovi was the 3rd highest scorer on his team, so it seems at worst he would be on the 2nd line and have PP time but I'm not sure tbh. On the other hand the talent around Michkov was probably much worse relatively. So you could call these things a wash

I think it's fair to get really excited about Michkov's season. That it's the best draft year season ever in the KHL/russian league holds significant water

 

[Garl]

Didn't we already discussed it and found out that Michkov scored 6 points against Sun and 2 against Jurusik?

Looks like it.

 

[Garl]

Let's do a simple adjustment process to try to compare Ovechkin's draft year scoring to Michkov's. The raw points per game stats are 0.43 for Ovi's DY and 0.74 for Michkov in Sochi. Let's call the relative talent of the russian league at the time about equal between the two years

I went through the top 5 teams in the league during Ovechkin's draft year and retrieved the points per game of each of those teams' top 5 scorers. The average points per game was 0.598

Then I did the same thing for this past KHL season, 2022-23. The average was 0.729 points per game. So the ratio between Ovi's year and Michkov's year is 0.82, which means Michkov's adjusted points per game goes from 0.74 with Sochi, to 0.61 adjusted

After the adjustment, Michkov's 0.61 points per game is still markedly higher than Ovi's 0.43.

Michkov probably had slightly more opportunity than Ovi did, but Ovi was the 3rd highest scorer on his team, so it seems at worst he would be on the 2nd line and have PP time but I'm not sure tbh. On the other hand the talent around Michkov was probably much worse relatively. So you could call these things a wash

I think it's fair to get really excited about Michkov's season. That it's the best draft year season ever in the KHL/russian league holds significant water

Have you heard of Sergei Samsonov?

 

[1909]

a headcase !

 

[coooldude]

Holy Moly. I mean, there's no way anyone can stop this back-and-forth, but because I'm a masochist, I'm going to try to mediate...

1. Michkov had a very good season, but Garl is arguing that it wasn't generational and is poking all the obvious holes in the season. Others are pointing at stats, opinions, analysis, and hearsay that argue that Michkov in fact WAS generational.
2. Other people are getting dragged in (Bedard, etc) but the comps, unsurprisingly, always have holes and then everyone is just going around in circles about whether the problems with the comps are REAL problems, or NOT REAL problems.

Both sides have arguments and none of the arguments are truly winnable. In reality, there is literally no way to know whether Michkov was over/underhyped, why exactly he was passed on, whether those reasons were legitimate reasons or not (at the time). We will, however, be able to see in about 5-10 years whether he (or Bedard for that matter) performed to the insane hype and expectations on them both. We WON'T be able to evaluate the GM's that passed on him for whether they were dumb at the time, but people will anyway.

Alright, I'll see myself out before the chaos continues.

 

[Unger9]

yeah you're now resorting to comparing him to outliers given draft year production. Samsonov's NHL production was much less than people thought he would, which is partially due to injuries. What I can say from watching Samsonov is, it's very clear that his hockey IQ is nowhere even close to that of Michkov

Michkov has a killer instinct, a clutchness, an *efficiency* to his game that's really something to marvel at

 

[MrGuyPerson]

I am not sure if someone has already posted this, but I put Matvey Michkov into Google translate then copied and pasted the russian spelling матвей мичков to Youtube and.....WOW. There is so much content out on him.

There is 1 hour 15 minute documentary ish special with a blonde lady talking to him, his teammates(possibly about him) clips of him being a child prodigy, clips of him training, general highlights, and mostly the blonde lady interviewing him. If you know anyone that can translate it for you, you can probably get to know the kid a lot better as person from watching this thing

 

[Unger9]

 

[NatusVincere]

These people have all no idea what they are talking about... Garl says he's small and slow and only scores against Chinese.

 

[JABEE]

If your argument against a prospect keeps circling back to the ethnicity of one goaltender said prospect faced, it's really uncomfortable to read. It's one thing to say the competition wasn't great, which doesn't even appear to be true, but the fixation on race for like 30 pages is extremely weird. It doesn't need to be stated to make the argument, and it almost seems like that detail about some random KHL goalie's ethnicity is the linchpin of his argument.