RW Matvei Michkov (2023, 7th, PHI) Part 4

[Garl]

More money paid. Better players playing there. Its easy as that. Bunch of the best swedes and finns are not even playing in their home leagues. Why? Why someone like Hartikainnen or swedes like Omark or Tömmernes played in the NLA instead of the great SHL… The talent pool in the KHL is even without the imports bigger. If not for money, half of the KHL would play as a bottom 6 in the NHL, in the AHL or somewhere in Europe. But why should they play for peanuts in the SHL? Yeah, only Garl can answer that.

KHL is 23 teams, of them 20 are from Russia
SHL is 14 teams

Main talent pool for both leagues are domestic players.
Sweden and Russia are at least equal(my opinion, Sweden is better, but lets say equal for arguments sake) in term of player development

Sweden has around 80 NHLers, Russia around 50, also around 90 AHLers vs around 60. Plus yes, there are maybe 20 swedes in NLA. Difference is around 90 players. 90 players is 4 teams.

SHL has 14, KHL has 20. 6 teams difference. It is in SHL favour. And that despite the obvious disparity in KHL when SKA and CSKA can ice two teams which would be better in quality than Sochi or Kunlun.

And that with the fact that initial estimations were tipped to favour Russia, since I think that swedish system just does better job in developing quality NHLers(Russia gets more stars but thats another thing).

And no, the argument that KHL is full of NHL level players who just don't want NHL and prefer KHL is wrong, look at last years Top 10 in scoring, everyone except Nikishin went to NHL and failed

 

[Garl]

Cause you have no arguments. Zero. Your point SHL > KHL isn’t based on any facts only on your (wrong) opinion… Your point with the Chinese goalie is as bad… again, Michkov outscored Russian 1st round talent with Miroshnichenko or Yurov on one leg. The two played in the same (weak) KHL against the same weak Chinese team. Yurov had 0 Points in the K in his draft year. Miro didn’t played a single second, only VHL. He had 16 points in 31 VHL games (Michkov had 10 goals in 12 games)… and cancer… and went nevertheless 20 OA. Michkovs 20 points in 27 games in the K are in every way exceptional. In his D+1 year Miro had 4 points in 23 games. Yurov had 12 in 59 games…Besides that, can you show us 1 single scout report about Michkov not being at least the 2nd most talented player of this draft? You cant. Cause outside of maybe Anaheim, Columbus and your own world, nobody argues that Michkov is at least the second best prospect of this draft.

1.I have never said SHL is better than KHL. Strawman. I said they are about equal now.
2. Now, argument again
Michkov had a rather pedestrian season this year for a "prodigy", "1st overall in majority of drafts", " best after Ovechkin" and all of that.

2.1 He didn't crack roster of SKA. Yes or now?
2.2 He played for the worst team in KHL, where his competition for ice time was much weaker than for all of other players with whom we can make a comparsion. That includes the fact, that the coach of a team with no goals and ambitions is less prone to bench a young player for a bad defensive play, or to just play vets because we really need those points etc.
2.3 20 pts in 27 games is good no doubt, but 40% of this points he scored in two meaningless(both teams lost any chance for playoffs) games vs second worst team in the league, who also happened to play the absolute worst goalie in the league in those 2 games. Yes or no?
2.4 He played 11 games and got 1+3 4 pts for NT in Belarus and Kazakshtan games. Yes or no?

As result, since his results were not as great as one could expect, he has fallen a bit in the draft, because suddenly people saw that he is small and not so fast and now there are talks about his attitude(no idea if they have truth in them).

And so, just based on their DY results it is entirely reasonable for Anaheim and Columbus to take Carlsson and Fantilli ahead of him. That's it. Maybe he is a steal of the draft, and it is all Alexei Yemelin's fault? We will see.

 

[Garl]

Are you saying that chinese people can't play goalie?

You can only play against the opponents in front of you.

He had 20 points in 27 KHL games.

And 2 points in 4 games in the only real international tournament at senior level he's played. As a 16-year old.

1. Chinese born and trained goalie at this point in time in 2023 is almost 100% not good enough for a league like KHL. China plays in Div 1B despite having a bunch of AHL/ECHL level canadians and americans. If he was trained in a good euro school like Armalis for example, it would be another story
2. 12 in 28 when not playing a meaningless game vs a chinese goalie
3. Russia 25 played 11 games this season. Michkov got 4 pts.

 

[Acallabeth]

2. Now, argument again
Michkov had a rather pedestrian season this year for a "prodigy", "1st overall in majority of drafts", " best after Ovechkin" and all of that.

It's so head-scratching that you don't even seem to have any real opinion on Michkov, aside from your 'Carlsson's better' shtick (which is obviously your opinion to have). Yet you choose an idea that has been proven factually wrong like 20 times in this exact thread (Michkov's draft season not being exceptional) and keep defending it like it decides the fate of the planet

 

[cg98]

1. Chinese born and trained goalie at this point in time in 2023 is almost 100% not good enough for a league like KHL. China plays in Div 1B despite having a bunch of AHL/ECHL level canadians and americans. If he was trained in a good euro school like Armalis for example, it would be another story
2. 12 in 28 when not playing a meaningless game vs a chinese goalie
3. Russia 25 played 11 games this season. Michkov got 4 pts.

All these bullshit arguments about “meaningless games” are cute (aka not valid arguments) you could make that same, stupid argument you make even in the NHL for players scoring on trash teams or “meaningless games” but yet I don’t hear you blabbing on about that.

I find it so funny that you’ve spent the better part of almost 2 years across multiple threads now working so hard trying to tear down an 18 year old player who could dust you any time. At this point you bring absolutely no value to any discussion about Michkov and it’s clear youre only here to troll (badly too). Hold this big L now.

 

[Garl]

It's so head-scratching that you don't even seem to have any real opinion on Michkov, aside from your 'Carlsson's better' shtick (which is obviously your opinion to have). Yet you choose an idea that has been proven factually wrong like 20 times in this exact thread (Michkov's draft season not being exceptional) and keep defending it like it decides the fate of the planet

Thats what I am saying, dodging and strawman arguments.
I did not say Carlsson is better btw, only that he had a better DY.

 

[Garl]

All these bullshit arguments about “meaningless games” are cute (aka not valid arguments) you could make that same, stupid argument you make even in the NHL for players scoring on trash teams or “meaningless games” but yet I don’t hear you blabbing on about that.

I find it so funny that you’ve spent the better part of almost 2 years across multiple threads now working so hard trying to tear down an 18 year old player who could dust you any time. At this point you bring absolutely no value to any discussion about Michkov and it’s clear youre only here to troll (badly too). Hold this big L now.

And ad hominems, you are proving my point.

And I am bringing a lot of value, by pointing out this dumb "legendary generational season" delusion that has nothing to do with reality. Reality which you and other fanboys prefer to dodge

Ps Dust me any time? Wtf does this supposed to mean?

 

[cg98]

And ad hominems, you are proving my point.

And I am bringing a lot of value, by pointing out this dumb "legendary generational season" delusion that has nothing to do with reality. Reality which you and other fanboys prefer to dodge

Ps Dust me any time? Wtf does this supposed to mean?

What point? Several users in multiple of these Michkov threads already provided rebuttals and evidence to fully counter those “points” and you just refuse to outright acknowledge them and double down on your (wrong) opinion even when you’ve BEEN fully proven wrong time and time again lol.

It’s not ad hominem at all, it’s just the truth. Go gloat about Leo Carlsson in…checks notes. Oh yes there’s a thread for him just to do that! You’re just not a very good troll bud.

 

[Snotbubbles]

What point? Several users in multiple of these Michkov threads already provided rebuttals and evidence to fully counter those “points” and you just refuse to outright acknowledge them and double down on your (wrong) opinion even when you’ve BEEN fully proven wrong time and time again lol.

It’s not ad hominem at all, it’s just the truth. Go gloat about Leo Carlsson in…checks notes. Oh yes there’s a thread for him just to do that! You’re just not a very good troll bud.

I see where Garl is coming from but saying Michkov scored 40% of his points in meaningless games is akin to saying Bedard scored 100% of his points against amateurs. Yeah, so? It's like no other Russian prospect ever scored a point against a bad team or played in a meaningless game. I guess Michkov set another record. LOL.

The biggest problem for doing a Michkov comparison to the other draft eligible players was that Russia was banned from the International tournaments. If Michkov was able to showcase his game at the WJC and we could then have a comparison against like competition, then we would have a basis for argument. Instead we're left trying to compare level of competition. Here's hoping that Russia is allowed to play in International tournaments again so we can compare things on a more level basis.

 

[Garl]

What point? Several users in multiple of these Michkov threads already provided rebuttals and evidence to fully counter those “points” and you just refuse to outright acknowledge them and double down on your (wrong) opinion even when you’ve BEEN fully proven wrong time and time again lol.

It’s not ad hominem at all, it’s just the truth. Go gloat about Leo Carlsson in…checks notes. Oh yes there’s a thread for him just to do that! You’re just not a very good troll bud.

Which rebuttals LOL? You guys got histerical after I have said that his season was not that good and never even tried arguing about him not making SKA or his stats in NT, nobody even tried to argue about that.
The whole issue at the moment revolves around his 20 in 27 for Sochi, which is good at face value, and I would not have said anything but people came and claimed some foolish stuff like exceptional legendary generational season etc lol. Then I pointed out his 8 pts in 2 particular meaningless games against a team that lost all chances for playoffs and was playing their BCHL level goalie. And thats where we are, ad hominems, strawmans, crying etc.
And thats only part of the issue, he played for a weak team and had not much of competition for ice time.
Ps What has Carlsson to do with all of it? I never even said that he is better than Michkov, only that he had a better draft season

 

[cg98]

I see where Garl is coming from but saying Michkov scored 40% of his points in meaningless games is akin to saying Bedard scored 100% of his points against amateurs. Yeah, so? It's like no other Russian prospect ever scored a point against a bad team or played in a meaningless game. I guess Michkov set another record. LOL.

The biggest problem for doing a Michkov comparison to the other draft eligible players was that Russia was banned from the International tournaments. If Michkov was able to showcase his game at the WJC and we could then have a comparison against like competition, then we would have a basis for argument. Instead we're left trying to compare level of competition. Here's hoping that Russia is allowed to play in International tournaments again so we can compare things on a more level basis.

Yeah, he keeps using the whole Belarus thing as an argument but it’s probably hard for Russian players as a whole to be motivated to play for the NT when Belarus, Kazakhstan, and perhaps China are the only nations you can play at an international stage. Ouch. Russian hockey at the international level came to a screeching halt and, currently, doesn’t really exist.

Michkov can’t really show his talent on a Russian NT at his peer group rn, thus we get these “discussions” about how he’s trash because he couldn’t make SKA or only has 4pts in 11 games against Belarus. Lol.

Which rebuttals LOL? You guys got histerical after I have said that his season was not that good and never even tried arguing about him not making SKA or his stats in NT nobody even tried to argue about that. The whole issue at the moment revolves around his 20 in 27 for Sochi, which is good at face value, and I would nothave said

Are you blind or this dense on purpose? Multiple users, especially Russian fans have rebutted you on several of these Michkov threads already and you have nothing to show for it except your own, wrong opinion. I’ll even find them for you since you’re clearly not even acknowledging these posters who’ve showed clear evidence to you.

Thanks for proving you’re a troll!

 

[Acallabeth]

Thats what I am saying, dodging and strawman arguments.
I did not say Carlsson is better btw, only that he had a better DY.

Even that seems like a legit point of view that could be discussed with a straight face.
Insisting that Michkov had a 'pedestrian' and 'unimpressive' deaft year is like insisting that Daniil But is too short.

never even tried arguing about him not making SKA or his stats in NT nobody even tried to argue about that. The whole issue at the moment revolves around his 20 in 27 for Sochi, which is good at face value

And once again, you've been told multiple times that Michkov's injury and SKA's unorthodox coach both contributed to him not playing much. You just seem not to be listening. Anyway, Michkov answered all the questions with his play later in the season.

You putting any value in a series of exhibition games after trying to claim some KHL games were 'meaningless' is exactly why your arguments are hard to take seriously.

 

[Garl]

I see where Garl is coming from but saying Michkov scored 40% of his points in meaningless games is akin to saying Bedard scored 100% of his points against amateurs. Yeah, so? It's like no other Russian prospect ever scored a point against a bad team or played in a meaningless game. I guess Michkov set another record. LOL.

The biggest problem for doing a Michkov comparison to the other draft eligible players was that Russia was banned from the International tournaments. If Michkov was able to showcase his game at the WJC and we could then have a comparison against like competition, then we would have a basis for argument. Instead we're left trying to compare level of competition. Here's hoping that Russia is allowed to play in International tournaments again so we can compare things on a more level basis.

25 games vs normal competition 12 pts
2 games vs chinese goalie 8 pts
You can ignore that, probably just a weird coincidence.
Bedard has nothing to do with it, he played in CHL as many other canadians so, if he is close to McDavid/Crosby numbers, it is generational season.


WJC point is correct, and not just that but all junior competition

 

[Garl]

Yeah, he keeps using the whole Belarus thing as an argument but it’s probably hard for Russian players as a whole to be motivated to play for the NT when Belarus, Kazakhstan, and perhaps China are the only nations you can play at an international stage. Ouch. Russian hockey at the international level came to a screeching halt and, currently, doesn’t really exist.

Michkov can’t really show his talent on a Russian NT at his peer group rn, thus we get these “discussions” about how he’s trash because he couldn’t make SKA or only has 4pts in 11 games against Belarus. Lol.


Are you blind or this dense on purpose? Multiple users, especially Russian fans have rebutted you on several of these Michkov threads already and you have nothing to show for it except your own, wrong opinion. I’ll even find them for you since you’re clearly not even acknowledging these posters who’ve showed clear evidence to you.

Thanks for proving you’re a troll!

Nobody called him trash(strawman as usual) but if that is the standart of your rebuttals the lol. How have you disproven the SKA issue? By using ""?
And yes, he was not motivated to play for NT vs Belarus. Glotov and Zykov were, but Michkov is above this. Correct.

Go on, show me this "evidence" should be fun.

And stop crying already

 

[Caser]

KHL is 23 teams, of them 20 are from Russia
SHL is 14 teams

Main talent pool for both leagues are domestic players.
Sweden and Russia are at least equal(my opinion, Sweden is better, but lets say equal for arguments sake) in term of player development

Sweden has around 80 NHLers, Russia around 50, also around 90 AHLers vs around 60. Plus yes, there are maybe 20 swedes in NLA. Difference is around 90 players. 90 players is 4 teams.

SHL has 14, KHL has 20. 6 teams difference. It is in SHL favour. And that despite the obvious disparity in KHL when SKA and CSKA can ice two teams which would be better in quality than Sochi or Kunlun.

And that with the fact that initial estimations were tipped to favour Russia, since I think that swedish system just does better job in developing quality NHLers(Russia gets more stars but thats another thing).

And no, the argument that KHL is full of NHL level players who just don't want NHL and prefer KHL is wrong, look at last years Top 10 in scoring, everyone except Nikishin went to NHL and failed

Sweden had 113 NHL players, Russia had 63. Also 49 AHLers Vs 26; for Liiga players it is 41 Vs 1; in NLA it is 27 Vs. 3; also there were 6 Swedes in the KHL. Additionally a lot of Swedish talent goes to the NCAA and there it is 54 Swedes Vs. 7 Russians, I'd say about half of them could be good enough.

So purely in terms of numbers the difference is about 165 players, which is enough for about 7 teams.

 

[Garl]

Even that seems like a legit point of view that could be discussed with a straight face.
Insisting that Michkov had a 'pedestrian' and 'unimpressive' deaft year is like insisting that Daniil But is too short.

And once again, you've been told multiple times that Michkov's injury and SKA's unorthodox coach both contributed to him not playing much. You just seem not to be listening. Anyway, Michkov answered all the questions with his play later in the season.

You putting any value in a series of exhibition games after trying to claim some KHL games were 'meaningless' is exactly why your arguments are hard to take seriously.

Pedestrian and unimpressive for a prospect of his calibre. If Yurov had a season like that, it would have been very impressive.

Injury happened, I know. Rotenberg is obviously questionable. But fact remains, he didn't make SKA, and I am sure 17 yo Ovechkin would have made it. Imagine he did make SKA and scored 20 in 27 for them? I would have had way less posts on hf

Yes, NT games in front of that same Rotenberg are rather important. NT is NT even in this format.
Games vs Kunlun were meaningless since both teams lost playoff chances. Still a hockey game, still tried to win, but less tactics, less focus, and absolute worst goalie in the league(statistics, not my opinion).

 

[Garl]

Sweden had 113 NHL players, Russia had 63. Also 49 AHLers Vs 26; for Liiga players it is 41 Vs 1; in NLA it is 27 Vs. 3; also there were 6 Swedes in the KHL. Additionally a lot of Swedish talent goes to the NCAA and there it is 54 Swedes Vs. 7 Russians, I'd say about half of them could be good enough.

So purely in terms of numbers the difference is about 165 players, which is enough for about 7 teams.

Liiga, NCAA are not relevant, Liiga has less money, so it is not the best swedes that go there, NCAA is a league for youngsters, almost like CHL, not relevant aswell.

113-63 =50, but then, 25 swedes played less than 10 games, so AHLers, for russians, number is 10. In AHL it was 97-53, so 44, but, also take minus 15, will be 29, lets say 30.

So overall, 50+30+24, 104, but almost no foreign limit I think, my point still stands))

 

[BrindamoursNose]

My God what the hell are you people arguing over

 

[Snotbubbles]

25 games vs normal competition 12 pts
2 games vs chinese goalie 8 pts
You can ignore that, probably just a weird coincidence.
Bedard has nothing to do with it, he played in CHL as many other canadians so, if he is close to McDavid/Crosby numbers, it is generational season.


WJC point is correct, and not just that but all junior competition

The problem with your logic is you can't take away games. Sochi was the worst team in the league. So by your logic, Michkov had non-"normal" teammates. That would effect scoring, no?

 

[Snotbubbles]

25 games vs normal competition 12 pts
2 games vs chinese goalie 8 pts
You can ignore that, probably just a weird coincidence.
Bedard has nothing to do with it, he played in CHL as many other canadians so, if he is close to McDavid/Crosby numbers, it is generational season.


WJC point is correct, and not just that but all junior competition

One more thing. I find your rationale with respect to Bedard as disingenuous. You are taking Bedard's points at face value when comparing them to other prospects in the same league that preceded him, but when it comes to Michkov, instead of doing the same, you want to take away points, in an attempt to validate your position. It's pretty weak.

 

[Kshahdoo]

My God what the hell are you people arguing over

One million words about nothing...

 

[Garl]

The problem with your logic is you can't take away games. Sochi was the worst team in the league. So by your logic, Michkov had non-"normal" teammates. That would effect scoring, no?

There are pros and cons when playing for a weak team in KHL. Pros that you dont have much competition for the ice time, cons that you play with low quality linemates.
Lot depends on a coach aswell.
But, KHL has a very rich history of stars from bottom teams, who went to a stronger team and didnt produce, happens all the time. Byvaltsev, Li, Vikharev, Filatov in Lada, Krikunov, Kruchinin, you name them, huge amount, happens every year

 

[Caser]

Liiga, NCAA are not relevant, Liiga has less money, so it is not the best swedes that go there, NCAA is a league for youngsters, almost like CHL, not relevant aswell.

113-63 =50, but then, 25 swedes played less than 10 games, so AHLers, for russians, number is 10. In AHL it was 97-53, so 44, but, also take minus 15, will be 29, lets say 30.

So overall, 50+30+24, 104, but almost no foreign limit I think, my point still stands))

It's not about the best, it is about who would be good enough for the SHL level and there's no way no one from Liiga and NCAA (btw it is a U25 league, so not exactly like CHL to say it mildly) isn't good enough. But obviously not all are good enough, that's why I thought about the 0.5 coefficient for NCAA, but I didn't think for too long on it. Maybe something similar can be thought for Liiga, but here I don't think I'm ready to face all the rotten tomatoes sent from our Finnish community here.

 

[Garl]

One more thing. I find your rationale with respect to Bedard as disingenuous. You are taking Bedard's points at face value when comparing them to other prospects in the same league that preceded him, but when it comes to Michkov, instead of doing the same, you want to take away points, in an attempt to validate your position. It's pretty weak.

My problem was with the "generational season" claim thats it.

Regarding pts, we do compare prospects not only on merit of points, circumstances do matter. I think Sam Gagner scored more points in his DY than Stamkos did, but we knew the circumstaces, that Gagner played with Kane.

Here it is similar. Michkov did benefit from having 2 late season games with Kunlun and their chinese goalie. It is obvious. Yes, by stats it is the best season ever by 18 yo player in KHL.
Lets say, next season Demidov scores 20 pts in 37 games for SKA. But that would not be best ever right? 20 in 37 for SKA would be worse than 20 in 27 for Sochi where 8 pts came from 2 late season Kunlun games.

For the record, if Demidov scores 20 in 37 for SKA or smth similar, I dont know what would have to be done by other prospects, so that I would not consider him a favorite for the 1st overall

My God what the hell are you people arguing over

Generational and legendary superseason of Michkov is Sochi

 

[Garl]

It's not about the best, it is about who would be good enough for the SHL level and there's no way no one from Liiga and NCAA (btw it is a U25 league, so not exactly like CHL to say it mildly) isn't good enough. But obviously not all are good enough, that's why I thought about the 0.5 coefficient for NCAA, but I didn't think for too long on it. Maybe something similar can be thought for Liiga, but here I don't think I'm ready to face all the rotten tomatoes sent from our Finnish community here.

Yes, some of them are def good enough, many guys from Allsvenskan are good enough for SHL aswell, and I bet some guys from VHL are good enough for KHL.))