RW Matvei Michkov (2023, 7th, PHI) Part 4

[Caser]

I don't understand either. 20 points in 30 games is not impressive, nor is 24 points in 53 games or 32 points in 52 games.

Not suggesting that this is the case with Michkov, but a team could certainly showcase and inflate a players stats by giving more favorable ice time and linemates, than was given to ov and malkin, respectively.

Because I refuse to believe that an 18 year old ovechkin was less of a player offensively than 95% of the players on this list

Statistics Russian Superleague 2003-2004 - Eurohockey.com

KHL teams in general are in the "win now" mode, they don't care about showcasing or inflating stats for young players, but for that mode you just put your trust on the experienced guys, as they are proven to deliver the result. Michkov's Sochi team was an exception here, as they were dead last when he arrived, yet still he got just under 16 minutes of TOI there, which is sort of understandable though, as he wasn't too ready physically.

 

[Frank Drebin]

KHL teams in general are in the "win now" mode, they don't care about showcasing or inflating stats for young players, but for that mode you just put your trust on the experienced guys, as they are proven to deliver the result. Michkov's Sochi team was an exception here, as they were dead last when he arrived, yet still he got just under 16 minutes of TOI there, which is sort of understandable though, as he wasn't too ready physically.

Would be nice to see advanced ice time stats for ovechkin/malkin (toi/pptoi/linemates etc) but it was hard enough to find rsl scoring leaders from 18 years ago

 

[Caser]

Would be nice to see advanced ice time stats for ovechkin/malkin (toi/pptoi/linemates etc) but it was hard enough to find rsl scoring leaders from 18 years ago

Yeah, I don't think such stats are there, but from the game reports I was able to find some time ago Ovechkin had mostly top-six usage and actually in the end he was 3rd on the team in points, so still rather impressive - here we have to consider that just one player was over ppg in the whole league back then. As for Malkin, I've seen game reports of him listed on the 2nd and on the 4th line that season, so no surprise his production was much more modest.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Yeah, I don't think such stats are there, but from the game reports I was able to find some time ago Ovechkin had mostly top-six usage and actually in the end he was 3rd on the team in points, so still rather impressive - here we have to consider that just one player was over ppg in the whole league back then. As for Malkin, I've seen game reports of him listed on the 2nd and on the 4th line that season, so no surprise his production was much more modest.

The RSL back then was a giant trap fest. Two teams running neutral zone traps dumping the puck back and forth and trying to get a penalty.

 

[Garl]

Because no draft eligible player has achieved that in the history of Soviet, Russian, KHL hockey leagues. This includes Ovechkin and Malkin who played in a less talented early 2000s RSL with fewer imports.
But if you think all-time hockey royalty like Auston Matthews could achieve it, more power to you.

Yeah, early 2000s RSL which still had a lot of players born and trained in USSR was somehow less talented than modern KHL with Kunlun and Master Sun

The outright lack of quality young defensemen in the NL makes any comparison difficult.
All I know is Matthews set that league on fire his draft season (2nd in ppg). On no planet would he be able to do that in the KHL.

Yes 18 yo Matthews is nothing compared to 19 yo Eeli Tolvanen

 

[Nabrules]

What even is this thread? If all you have is negative bs without any fact then GTFO and go spread it somewhere else.

 

[Garl]

For all you crapping on Kunlun... Their #4/5 defenseman, Ryan Sproul, won CHL defenceman of the year in 2013.
What do you think he'd do vs CHL kids, or the NCAA, as a 30 year old seasoned vet? That's right, Kunlun's 4/5th defenseman would annihilate those leagues.

Yet somehow torching Kunlun is a negative for Michkov?
If that's the case might as well throw all Bedard and Fantilli's achievements out the window also.

Look, there is one and only one reason why Michkov was selected 7th overall and not at least 2nd overall
As you and other russian and and non russian posters have rightfully pointed out Michkovs dominance in junior hockey both domestically and abroad is one of the all time best and can be compared with Bedard or Ovechkin. Based on his pedigree, he should have been an easy 2nd overall if not for one thing
And it is not that he is allegedely a jerk
And not that he is small
And not that he is not very fast
And not because of the SMO and Putin

Do you know what it is?

 

[Acallabeth]

I don't understand either. 20 points in 30 games is not impressive, nor is 24 points in 53 games or 32 points in 52 games.

Not suggesting that this is the case with Michkov, but a team could certainly showcase and inflate a players stats by giving more favorable ice time and linemates, than was given to ov and malkin, respectively. Because I refuse to believe that an 18 year old ovechkin was less of a player offensively than 95% of the players on this list

Statistics Russian Superleague 2003-2004 - Eurohockey.com

It may be hard to comprehend for some folks, but a 30 year old career KHLer is often much better than a 17-18 year old future NHL star. Coaches don't stand behind the bench admiring their great talent, they see a player who is skilled, but hasn't fully adapted to the adult hockey and may lack some qualities that are necessary in the KHL. They don't care about the player being a high draft pick (it's not their draft pick) and play then on merit.

If Michkov's career so far isn't impressive, I don't know what is. Scoring 7 points in a junior game against some bunch of losers who'll never even sniff professional hockey? If you want a player to contend for the KHL scoring title in his draft year, I'm sorry to break it for you, prospects like that never existed and likely never will.

 

[Caser]

The RSL back then was a giant trap fest. Two teams running neutral zone traps dumping the puck back and forth and trying to get a penalty.

Yeah, later I remembered that Bilyaletdinov was Ovechkin's coach that season, so that kind of explains it too.

 

[BB88]

Michkov wasn’t allowed to showcase himself at a WC so it shouldn’t even be a point of conversation, compare them at the same tournaments they WERE together at and see what it shows.

Oh wait Carlsson didn’t even make the U18 team that Michkov was last allowed to play at, where he led the tournament in scoring

So best you got is going back to 2 years?

How about talk about their games today and make a case for why Michkov is a better pro player than Carlsson?

Who played against tougher competition in the SHL playoffs and did better and was 1C for Swedens mens national team. Even if Russia was going to WC Michkov wouldn’t have made the roster while Carlsson was a 1C.
He’s defensively so far ahead of Michkov and his ability to controll the play at pro level.

Carlsson& Fantilli could both play in the NHL next season and Michkov should never play there this coming season, he’s not ready

I love HF when with prospects things have been decided 2 years earlier and nothing can change between

 

[BB88]

I won't dig up the forum to show you the graphs, but yeah, projection models have consistently shown that Michkov has much higher chances of becoming a star. Why are you even hyping Reinbacher as a #1 defenseman? He hasn't shown particurlarly outstanding offensive production, and eye test proves that expecting him not to become a defense-first player is overly ambitious.


If you want franchise players, Michkov's draft season is better than both Ovechkin and Malkin had, and you'd need to go to Bure to find any that could be argued even greater.
We also have other great players (not just top 3 picks) who became stars and whose draft year accomplishments are dwarved by Michkov. Kuznetsov, Kucherov, Kaprizov, Panarin - none of them were fit to lace Michkov's skates at 18!

That’s a different league so it’s tough to compre and Michkov will never have neither Malkins or Ovy’s physical tools.

KHL hasn’t developed a single franchise prospect to draft prior to Michkov and the previous record was held by Tarasenko. So there’s not that much data to compare to.

Where as we can compare how Fantillis stats compare to recent franchise prospects going the same route and how his numbers absolutely crush them, both draft season and +1 season stats, outside of Eichel whom he had similar stats while better scoring.
& we know how hyped Eichel was around the draft and what he was able to do in his rookie season, injuries just made sure we weren’t able to see the real prime Eichel.
Carlsson also had one of the best SHL season by draft eligible prospect and he’s a prototypical franchise C prospect& we saw him against tougher competition than Michkov. I have no doubt Carlsson will be one of the leading players for his SHL team next season and make the WC roster again

 

[Acallabeth]

'Different league' is still a much more relevant reference point than your own take on Michkov's imaginary national team performance you compared Carlsson to a post before

You know what? I declare all this talk about different times, trapping systems and Bilyaletdinov coaching irrelevant nonsense. People here are not above calling sky purple, like saying that Fantilli is more of a pro because of his success in his little high school leaguey, that best draft year season in KHL history isn't impressive because the previous record is bad and that Ovechkin couldn't possibly be the best RSL forward at 18. Michkov is the sickest Russian prospect in decades and will be an extremely successful and interesting player to follow. The lengths people are willing to go to deny it are comical!

 

[Frank Drebin]

It may be hard to comprehend for some folks, but a 30 year old career KHLer is often much better than a 17-18 year old future NHL star. Coaches don't stand behind the bench admiring their great talent, they see a player who is skilled, but hasn't fully adapted to the adult hockey and may lack some qualities that are necessary in the KHL. They don't care about the player being a high draft pick (it's not their draft pick) and play then on merit.

If Michkov's career so far isn't impressive, I don't know what is. Scoring 7 points in a junior game against some bunch of losers who'll never even sniff professional hockey? If you want a player to contend for the KHL scoring title in his draft year, I'm sorry to break it for you, prospects like that never existed and likely never will.

Ah. Thanks for explaining.

So a 19/20 year old ovechkin that scored 13 goals and 26 points in 37 games in the rsl was clearly not as good of a player as a 28 year old Pavel rosa, who scored 21 g and 44pts in 54 games for the same team.

The same ovechkin that instantly became a top 5 player in the NHL in his rookie year, scoring 52 goals and 104 points in the best league in the world, in the same calendar year he supposedly wasn't as good as Pavel rosa.

My point is very clear:

I do not consider ovechkins, Malkin's, etc rookie seasons in the khl statistically relevant. They were world class players obviously being held back by coaching decisions.

Michkov scoring 20 points in 30 games or whatever it was may be impressive on it's own but to say that it was a better season than ovechkin,malkin, kaprizov etc is in the same vein as saying Jesperi Kotkaniemi was a better 18 year old player than Joe Thornton was.

 

[BB88]

'Different league' is still a much more relevant reference point than your own take on Michkov's imaginary national team performance you compared Carlsson to a post before

You know what? I declare all this talk about different times, trapping systems and Bilyaletdinov coaching irrelevant nonsense. People here are not above calling sky purple, like saying that Fantilli is more of a pro because of his success in his little high school leaguey, that best draft year season in KHL history isn't impressive because the previous record is bad and that Ovechkin couldn't possibly be the best RSL forward at 18. Michkov is the sickest Russian prospect in decades and will be an extremely successful and interesting player to follow. The lengths people are willing to go to deny it are comical!

Also the lenghts the defenders are willing to go is comical.

No matter how many reports on his questionable character people call all of them nonsense.
Nothing in his game can be questioned either, he’s a quaranteed Kucherov.

He’s also better than Carlsson and Fantilli because he was better 2 years ago and nothing can change since

No one here has said Michkov is garbage, I’ve time and time again said I would have taken him with a smile at 4, just not in the top3 because the others bring more value to the table

Some just can’t take it that other prospects overtook him

& you seriously think Michkov is more NHL ready than Fantilli?

 

[Garl]

'Different league' is still a much more relevant reference point than your own take on Michkov's imaginary national team performance you compared Carlsson to a post before

You know what? I declare all this talk about different times, trapping systems and Bilyaletdinov coaching irrelevant nonsense. People here are not above calling sky purple, like saying that Fantilli is more of a pro because of his success in his little high school leaguey, that best draft year season in KHL history isn't impressive because the previous record is bad and that Ovechkin couldn't possibly be the best RSL forward at 18. Michkov is the sickest Russian prospect in decades and will be an extremely successful and interesting player to follow. The lengths people are willing to go to deny it are comical!

Michkov played 11 games for NT this season, scored 3 pts, best season evar confirmed

 

[FlyguyOX]

So best you got is going back to 2 years?

How about talk about their games today and make a case for why Michkov is a better pro player than Carlsson?

Who played against tougher competition in the SHL playoffs and did better and was 1C for Swedens mens national team. Even if Russia was going to WC Michkov wouldn’t have made the roster while Carlsson was a 1C.
He’s defensively so far ahead of Michkov and his ability to controll the play at pro level.

Carlsson& Fantilli could both play in the NHL next season and Michkov should never play there this coming season, he’s not ready

I love HF when with prospects things have been decided 2 years earlier and nothing can change between

I took the one common contextual environment, you’re the one extrapolating.

Durrr my guy did good at the recent international tournament but since your guy wasn’t allowed to for xenophobic reasons I can say whatever I want and you can’t refute it durrr.

Look at the common contextual factors. When playing against players 2 years older Michkov led the tournament in points. Carlsson wasn’t even invited.
Sure, Carlsson scored more in the SHL this past year, an easier league than KHL, where he was getting top minutes. Plop michkov in that same exact environment and he would score more than Carlsson without a doubt.

Also the lenghts the defenders are willing to go is comical.

No matter how many reports on his questionable character people call all of them nonsense.
Nothing in his game can be questioned either, he’s a quaranteed Kucherov.

He’s also better than Carlsson and Fantilli because he was better 2 years ago and nothing can change since

No one here has said Michkov is garbage, I’ve time and time again said I would have taken him with a smile at 4, just not in the top3 because the others bring more value to the table

Some just can’t take it that other prospects overtook him

& you seriously think Michkov is more NHL ready than Fantilli?

More NHL ready doesn’t equate to how good they’ll be in their prime lmao

 

[BB88]

I took the one common contextual environment, you’re the one extrapolating.

Durrr my guy did good at the recent international tournament but since your guy wasn’t allowed to for xenophobic reasons I can say whatever I want and you can’t refute it durrr.

Look at the common contextual factors. When playing against players 2 years older Michkov led the tournament in points. Sure, Carlsson scored more in the SHL, an easier league, where he was getting top minutes. Plop michkov in that same exact environment and he would score more.

So Carlsson playing a bigger role on one of the top teams in the SHL is a negative now?

You think they played him like that just for fun or to win games?

SHL& this KHL aren’t that far apart and again Carlsson played against tougher competition in SHL playoffs than Michkov did in KHL regular season and did better.


& this may come as a surprise to you but there’s more to hockey than just points.
Carlsson is a superior overall player in comparison to Michkov and he would never ve used in similar role as Carlsson because of it

 

[FlyguyOX]

For those sucking hard on the copium

So Carlsson playing a bigger role on one of the top teams in the SHL is a negative now?

You think they played him like that just for fun or to win games?

SHL& this KHL aren’t that far apart and again Carlsson played against tougher competition in SHL playoffs than Michkov did in KHL regular season and did better.


& this may come as a surprise to you but there’s more to hockey than just points.
Carlsson is a superior overall player in comparison to Michkov and he would never ve used in similar role as Carlsson because of it

Extremely common in the SHL for top prospects. Literally almost never happens in the KHL because it’s a tougher league

 

[SomeDude]

These continued articles about “attitude issues” are just teams trying to secure a get out of jail free card to fall back on when they look like the absolute morons they are in 4 years for passing on him.

Trying to make a narrative that he was risky and therefore it was an okay decision to pass on him despite the fact he is obviously the 2nd most talented prospect in the draft.

 

[BB88]

I took the one common contextual environment, you’re the one extrapolating.

Durrr my guy did good at the recent international tournament but since your guy wasn’t allowed to for xenophobic reasons I can say whatever I want and you can’t refute it durrr.

Look at the common contextual factors. When playing against players 2 years older Michkov led the tournament in points. Carlsson wasn’t even invited.
Sure, Carlsson scored more in the SHL this past year, an easier league than KHL, where he was getting top minutes. Plop michkov in that same exact environment and he would score more than Carlsson without a doubt.


More NHL ready doesn’t equate to how good they’ll be in their prime lmao

Then don’t probably talk about how Michkov is a better pro player today if that’s what you got.

& I’d say that should be a bit worrying if everyone thought Michkov was the superior player a year ago and since then Carlsson has overtook him.
But the development curve will support the player that used to be better?

 

[FlyguyOX]

Then don’t probably talk about how Michkov is a better pro player today if that’s what you got.

& I’d say that should be a bit worrying if everyone thought Michkov was the superior player a year ago and since then Carlsson has overtook him.
But the development curve will support the player that used to be better?

Wright was the most NHL ready too. Look how that’s turned out

 

[Garl]

I took the one common contextual environment, you’re the one extrapolating.

Durrr my guy did good at the recent international tournament but since your guy wasn’t allowed to for xenophobic reasons I can say whatever I want and you can’t refute it durrr.

Look at the common contextual factors. When playing against players 2 years older Michkov led the tournament in points. Carlsson wasn’t even invited.
Sure, Carlsson scored more in the SHL this past year, an easier league than KHL, where he was getting top minutes. Plop michkov in that same exact environment and he would score more than Carlsson without a doubt.


More NHL ready doesn’t equate to how good they’ll be in their prime lmao

Mikhail Grigorenko scored 18 pts in his D-1 year at WJC U18 Elias Lindholm wasnt invited, Filip Forsberg was the best 94 on that team, had 6 pts, 3 times less than Grigorenko.
That was a great and obvious demonstration of Grigorenko's superiority.

Also, "xenophobic reasons"? What?

 

[BB88]

Wright was the most NHL ready too. Look how that’s turned out

Wright has nothing to do with Fantilli or Carlsson

You can do better than that

This thread is full of people saying Michkov is the 2nd best player and had the 2nd best season.
Then it goes to well it isn’t about who’s better today but who’s better in their primes. No kidding, but don’t argue how he is today the 2nd best pro level player.
Then Wright gets brought up.

That’s more of a strike against Michkov than either Fantilli or Carlsson.
Wright was said to be the 1st overall 2 years prior to draft and then on his draft season dropped to 4th.
Fantilli and Carlsson have only kept getting better and raised their draft status throughout the season.
They have absolutely nothing to do with Wright

 

[Acallabeth]

No one here has said Michkov is garbage, I’ve time and time again said I would have taken him with a smile at 4, just not in the top3 because the others bring more value to the table
Some just can’t take it that other prospects overtook him
& you seriously think Michkov is more NHL ready than Fantilli?

People could say that they prefer a safer pick, a center, a controlled player who may come to the NHL earlier, but there are too many baseless assumptions. Like the idea that Fantilli is a complete franchise center after a fairly mediocre WJC and Worlds, because he plays against future engineers and psychologists so well, or Reinbacher is the next Hedman (??). What Michkov brings is hard facts.

And who cares if Michkov is NHL ready? He's not going to play in the NHL next year, but so far he's been far more successful in his pro career than Fantilli.

For those sucking hard on the copium

'bad teammate'

 

[Snotbubbles]

Wright has nothing to do with Fantilli or Carlsson

You can do better than that

This thread is full of people saying Michkov is the 2nd best player and had the 2nd best season.
Then it goes to well it isn’t about who’s better today but who’s better in their primes. No kidding, but don’t argue how he is today the 2nd best pro level player.
Then Wright gets brought up.

That’s more of a strike against Michkov than either Fantilli or Carlsson.
Wright was said to be the 1st overall 2 years prior to draft and then on his draft season dropped to 4th.
Fantilli and Carlsson have only kept getting better and raised their draft status throughout the season.
They have absolutely nothing to do with Wright

This post begs the question, did Michkov drop in the draft because the other guys kept getting better and he didn't or were there other reasons?