Rumor: Rumors and Proposals Thread: "Wrong Side of Heaven, Righteous Side of (Salary Cap) Hell"

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Multiple cup winners…

I mean, if we're going that route, Peter Chiarelli won a Cup more recently than Holland we all know how that turned out.

Holland built Detroit to win the Cup. And he also built them into the dumpster fire they are today. Both things can be true.

 

[Faelko]

Now do this decade.

Sure, all 2 years of if?
Two 2nd place division finishes.

 

[Little Fury]

Sure, all 2 years of if?
Two 2nd place division finishes.

A decade is 10 years.

Holland hasn't done jack since the cap came in.

 

[belair]

No, it's actually totally reasonable to expect a PP with two players of McDrai's calibre to be a top 10 unit, but that doesn't mean outliers don't happen.

Well, you're being quoted here saying special teams 'just happen'.

'Outliers' occur when teams can stop you. If you lose the ability to move the puck quickly, odds are stopping McDrai becomes a lot easier. That's exactly what happened when teams scouted the Letestu PP setup.

I'm not even sure where this debate started, but the certainty that our special teams sustain their rates of success is far more important to the team's success than you're alluding to. Particularly when they've struggled as much as they have at 5v5.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

Ullmark fascinates me in more reasons than one.

First, I have no idea how he maintained that SV% on that team.

Second, how the hell did the Sabres lose so many games with starting quality netminding? The Oilers rosters were awful in our darkest years, but bad lineups were always paired with awful goaltending to really put a nail in the coffin. The Sabres? Their lineup up front looks better on paper than the Oilers darkest days, they have average to above average goaltending, but they are somehow worse. They are truly a doomed franchise.

Sabres are repeating many of the Oilers incompetence with rotating management often inexperienced and churn at coaching.
Losing is firmly embedded in the culture.

For Ulmark to put up winning numbers and strong underlaying analytics is pretty eyeopening and needs to be paid attention too. Free agent. No acquisition cost. Latent upside behind a better team. And an amazing mentor in Smith who can guide and nurture further development. Oilers need to get this critical position sorted out after botching it much of the decade. Ulmark looks to have the skill and mental aptitude to be ‘the guy.’

 

[Faelko]

I mean, if we're going that route, Peter Chiarelli won a Cup more recently than Holland we all know how that turned out.

Holland built Detroit to win the Cup. And he also built them into the dumpster fire they are today. Both things can be true.

It can but it sure seems like when someone wants to discredit him they like to leave out the Cups.

Every dynasty falls, some like Holland cling to the hope for one more championship and waste assets. The Penguins are doing it right now.

and you’re right about Chiarelli, I was happy when they hired him, happiness turns to sadness and then anger. I’m sure it’ll be the same with Holland but until then I’ll wait and see what happens.

 

[CupofOil]

Almost as weird as suggesting he was 'lighting $8m on fire' when Sekera's $5.5m would've been on the books until this season. Nobody should be complaining about that buyout.

And almost as weird as somebody saying that Holland had nothing to do with the PK improvement because the PK is all about goaltending (which is wrong actually) yet Holland, who gets no credit for it, is the one who signed the goaltender that helped improved the PK. Just to let you know what type of poster you're arguing with.

Some posters had it in for Holland from the day he was hired because he doesn't fit a certain profile that they prefer.

 

[Faelko]

A decade is 10 years.

Holland hasn't done jack since the cap came in.

This decade started in 2020.

Regardless, it’s funny how you set the timeline to suit your narrative. Why the last 10 years, why not 20? Why not 14…it’s laughable.

Im not pumping up Holland, He’s got this year to show me something or I’ll be along side the doubters too.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

It can but it sure seems like when someone wants to discredit him they like to leave out the Cups.

Every dynasty falls, some like Holland cling to the hope for one more championship and waste assets. The Penguins are doing it right now.

and you’re right about Chiarelli, I was happy when they hired him, happiness turns to sadness and then anger. I’m sure it’ll be the same with Holland but until then I’ll wait and see what happens.

Again, I'm being patient with him but also cautious because his body of work so far has been a mixed bag. We also need some of our recent picks to step up.

 

[Little Fury]

Well, you're being quoted here saying special teams 'just happen'.

'Outliers' occur when teams can stop you. If you lose the ability to move the puck quickly, odds are stopping McDrai becomes a lot easier. That's exactly what happened when teams scouted the Letestu PP setup.

I'm not even sure where this debate started, but the certainty that our special teams sustain their rates of success is far more important to the team's success than you're alluding to. Particularly when they've struggled as much as they have at 5v5.

The point is the improvement in special teams rings a little hollow when the team has regressed at 5v5. If teams figure out how to stop the PP like they did in 17-18, this team is truly f**ked.

 

[Little Fury]

This decade started in 2020.

A decade can refer to a specific period like the 2020s or any period of 10 years. Do you have a point or do you want to just keep playing word games?

 

[CupofOil]

I meant it doesn't matter what happens with Neal in regards to whether that poster is going to complain or not. Neal could score 40, and he would be on here whining about it.

Gotcha, and I concur.

It's the ole George Costanza joke when he worked for the Yankees and told Jeter and Bernie Williams after Jeter said they didn't need hitting tips because they won the World Series and George said "Yeah, in 6". Some posters will find a way to complain no matter what.

 

[Faelko]

A decade can refer to a specific period like the 2020s or any period of 10 years. Do you have a point or do you want to just keep playing word games?

I’m aware of that, it’s a taste of your own medicine with all the mental gymnastics you like to play.

 

[K1984]

The point is the improvement in special teams rings a little hollow when the team has regressed at 5v5. If teams figure out how to stop the PP like they did in 17-18, this team is truly f**ked.

The PP didn't suck in 17-18 because other teams figured it out, it was because they were operating probably the worst PP system that I have ever seen. It's rare air to shoot yourself in the foot to the point that a PP with Connor and Leon on it is dead last in the NHL. Thankfully that coach is gone along with the GM that hired him.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

I’m aware of that, it’s a taste of your own medicine with all the mental gymnastics you like to play.

We're Oiler fans, we have multiple gold medals in that department. Only this group would continue to support the team after the fiasco that was the past 15 years or so.

 

[Paralyzer]

Every year you're not contending for the Cup with mcDavid and Drasaitl is a wasted year.

Well that's your narrative. How do we know that's McDavid and Draisaitl's narrative? How do we know they want to build something with Holland and actually are ok with gradually gaining ground every year? I'd rather we go for multiple cups than 1 anyways. Holland is still building and so far the guys we have drafted and signed for whatever he could fit into the cap have looked good so far.

 

[Faelko]

We're Oiler fans, we have multiple gold medals in that department. Only this group would continue to support the team after the fiasco that was the past 15 years or so.

And we all want the same thing but can’t agree on how to get there…haha

 

[belair]

And almost as weird as somebody saying that Holland had nothing to do with the PK improvement because the PK is all about goaltending (which is arong actually) yet Holland, who gets no credit for it, is the one who signed the goaltender that helped improved the PK. Just to let you know what type of poster you're arguing with.

Some posters had it in for Holland the day he was hired because he doesn't fit a certain profile that they prefer.

I've said it before. GMs have very little impact over things like team depth, player value and market prices. It's not EA Sports. If your team is shallow in prospect depth, short in cap flexibility and your team immediately requires a particular positional player, odds are that player is either unattainable, highly overpriced or you're attempt to fill that role with a combination of 'value players'.

Stop wasting your time valuating the guys wearing suits.

 

[belair]

The point is the improvement in special teams rings a little hollow when the team has regressed at 5v5. If teams figure out how to stop the PP like they did in 17-18, this team is truly f**ked.

It rings hollow? They've been a playoff team.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

And we all want the same thing but can’t agree on how to get there…haha

I understand the desire to go for "multiple cups" through drafting and development and that is ideally what we should be doing, but we've already acquired the toughest piece to get and every year we don't win we piss away more of McDavid and Draisatl. As soon as one (or God forbid both) of them leave is the instant our window slams shut.

This org should be able to add players now AND through the draft, but our drafting record is still pretty abysmal.

 

[Faelko]

I understand the desire to go for "multiple cups" through drafting and development and that is ideally what we should be doing, but we've already acquired the toughest piece to get and every year we don't win we piss away more of McDavid and Draisatl. As soon as one (or God forbid both) of them leave is the instant our window slams shut.

This org should be able to add players now AND through the draft, but our drafting record is still pretty abysmal.

I understand too. I’m on the bubble with Holland (even though it seems like I’m defending him and I am a little I guess), this is a critical time for this team heading into the off-season, if he screws it up, I’ll have pitchforks out as well. I am however willing to wait and see what he does first.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

I understand too. I’m on the bubble with Holland (even though it seems like I’m defending him and I am a little I guess), this is a critical time for this team heading into the off-season, if he screws it up, I’ll have pitchforks out as well. I am however willing to wait and see what he does first.

I am too but he needs to have the offseason of his life, this team still has so many holes in almost every area.

 

[McTonyBrar]

You're right, he has only been here for two years. What team did he GM before us?

Detroit. Sorry is there some kind of trick you're trying to pull? We'd have hired any GM or coach and you'd still complain.

 

[McTonyBrar]

Now do this decade.

Take a look at how many players from his Cup winning teams have retired...

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Detroit. Sorry is there some kind of trick you're trying to pull? We'd have hired any GM or coach and you'd still complain.

I'm sure I don't need to remind you of Detroit's current state?