Bryanbryoil
Pray For Ukraine
- Sep 13, 2004
- 87,727
- 38,139
Proposal: Rumors and Proposals Thread: Chia's Quest For D and WINNING!
- Thread starter Bryanbryoil
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yukoner88
Registered User
Digger12
Gold Fever
Just to pick up on the vein of the "Darnell Nurse is terrible at hockey and will be lucky to be even a middle pairing dman" beatdown going on in the previous thread...
I think the poster who was originally talking about the Pronger comparison wasn't saying he had the same potential as Pronger, obviously that would be silly as Pronger was getting comparisons to being a potential Larry Robinson on his draft day. But I think it's fair to suggest that Pronger took a few years of learning some hard lessons before he became the Pronger everyone remembers, and even though he had that 30 point rookie season that's really not relevant considering that was over 20 years ago in a league where 23 players had 40+ goals that year. Compare that to this season where we *might* have 1/4 that number accomplish the same.
That year, 20 of the 26 teams had 250+ goals. This year we'll be lucky to see even 2 teams score like that. It's a completely different era.
And while Pronger had that 30 point rookie season as an 18 yr old, as a 20 year old (same age as Nurse was for most of this year) with St. Louis he had 25 points and was a team-worst -18, and that was by far the worst minus on the team. Back then you had more than a few people wondering if he was more bust than sure thing, and that he maybe didn't have the mental makeup to succeed. There were many nights where he looked clumsy and made bad decisions all over the ice.
Point being, it can make you look really foolish to make blanket projections on a young defenseman when he's got lots of physical tools but lacks experience.
Not saying Nurse is guaranteed to succeed, maybe he doesn't make it and becomes a tools-but-no-toolbox player like many others before him. But it would be short sighted and reactionary to get rid of him after his first pro season.
He is the only prospect in our system who has even the slightest hope of becoming a top pairing dman, and those guys you simply cannot get via trade. You have to grow them or pray you can outbid 29 other teams when the rare one pops up in free agency, and that is exceedingly rare.
I think the poster who was originally talking about the Pronger comparison wasn't saying he had the same potential as Pronger, obviously that would be silly as Pronger was getting comparisons to being a potential Larry Robinson on his draft day. But I think it's fair to suggest that Pronger took a few years of learning some hard lessons before he became the Pronger everyone remembers, and even though he had that 30 point rookie season that's really not relevant considering that was over 20 years ago in a league where 23 players had 40+ goals that year. Compare that to this season where we *might* have 1/4 that number accomplish the same.
That year, 20 of the 26 teams had 250+ goals. This year we'll be lucky to see even 2 teams score like that. It's a completely different era.
And while Pronger had that 30 point rookie season as an 18 yr old, as a 20 year old (same age as Nurse was for most of this year) with St. Louis he had 25 points and was a team-worst -18, and that was by far the worst minus on the team. Back then you had more than a few people wondering if he was more bust than sure thing, and that he maybe didn't have the mental makeup to succeed. There were many nights where he looked clumsy and made bad decisions all over the ice.
Point being, it can make you look really foolish to make blanket projections on a young defenseman when he's got lots of physical tools but lacks experience.
Not saying Nurse is guaranteed to succeed, maybe he doesn't make it and becomes a tools-but-no-toolbox player like many others before him. But it would be short sighted and reactionary to get rid of him after his first pro season.
He is the only prospect in our system who has even the slightest hope of becoming a top pairing dman, and those guys you simply cannot get via trade. You have to grow them or pray you can outbid 29 other teams when the rare one pops up in free agency, and that is exceedingly rare.
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Pointteen
Registered User
Here's hoping Weber and Josi demand a trade to Edmonton. Otherwise I am not too optimistic anymore. Just too much work to do.
NedPlimpton
Registered User
Jumptheshark
Rebooting myself
The problem I see is that some on this board want gold for garbage. I think two former firsts get moved out this off season
People need to realise that the sort of D that Chiarelli is going to be able to acquire via trade are going to be unproven to a certain extent. Vatanen might cost something like the Oilers first rounder in 2017, and I'd probably be ok with a trade like that.
Otherwise, if you trade RNH or Eberle, you're going to end up with the likes of Cody Ceci, Matt Dumba, Trouba, etc. All are fine players, but not yet proven top pairing guys (not even top 4 necessarily). Hamonic would be a great addition, but do we have what the Isles would want???
I think the first chip to fall will be RNH dealt to Ottawa or Columbus for Cody Ceci or Ryan Murray respectively. It's a safe deal that meets an immediate need for both of those teams.
Otherwise, if you trade RNH or Eberle, you're going to end up with the likes of Cody Ceci, Matt Dumba, Trouba, etc. All are fine players, but not yet proven top pairing guys (not even top 4 necessarily). Hamonic would be a great addition, but do we have what the Isles would want???
I think the first chip to fall will be RNH dealt to Ottawa or Columbus for Cody Ceci or Ryan Murray respectively. It's a safe deal that meets an immediate need for both of those teams.
I don't think that's the case at all. If you're getting a top 4 d-man who can plug in and play now, that helps us way more than waiting for him to figure it out which could take a couple of years or might never happen which, given the Oilers' track record at developing players, seems like a distinct possibility.
And that potential is what gives him value. Not saying you have to trade him, but there's no way he should be considered untouchable.
Agree with this. We saw a preview of the RNH return in the Jones/Johansen swap. Young C for young D-man with potential who hasn't established themselves yet. It's not the worst return if you're planning on rebuilding I guess.
Paralyzer008
Registered User
- Jan 30, 2008
- 15,293
- 5,332
Anyone interested at signing Antti Raanta?
If we don't land Alex Lyon, I think Raanta is a good bet to fight Brossoit for a backup spot.
If we don't land Alex Lyon, I think Raanta is a good bet to fight Brossoit for a backup spot.
Dazed and Confused
Ludicrous speed, GO!
Honestly I'm not minding the bargain bin approach as much as I was. But I think the key thing is getting away from the "25 point pairing", and finding guys that can contribute all over the ice.
Considering the prices being thrown around for the high end guys, I'd be content to keep a deep forward core, and have a defence like
Sekera-Vatanen
Davidson-Klefbom
Ehrhoff-Fayne
It's not strong, but it doesn't hinder the forwards as the current one does, nor is there any long term overpriced commitments. It's essentially 3 second pairings, but 3 pairings that can generate offence.
If this is your point totals from the defence next year:
30-40
20-30
25-10
or about 150, then I'd be willing to bet this team is in the playoff picture. It's not the final goal, but it does have you in a much better position next year, as the value of half your roster isn't tanked, nor do teams have you as easily by the balls when you're looking to improve.
Considering the prices being thrown around for the high end guys, I'd be content to keep a deep forward core, and have a defence like
Sekera-Vatanen
Davidson-Klefbom
Ehrhoff-Fayne
It's not strong, but it doesn't hinder the forwards as the current one does, nor is there any long term overpriced commitments. It's essentially 3 second pairings, but 3 pairings that can generate offence.
If this is your point totals from the defence next year:
30-40
20-30
25-10
or about 150, then I'd be willing to bet this team is in the playoff picture. It's not the final goal, but it does have you in a much better position next year, as the value of half your roster isn't tanked, nor do teams have you as easily by the balls when you're looking to improve.
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Speaking of Lyon, is it not a but surprising he hasn't decided yet? Is Edmonton rumored to be in on anyone else?
No thanks to signing a college goalie and expecting him to be able to carry out backup duties.
My ranking of UFA backups to sign:
Chad Johnson (current salary 1.6M)
Al Montoya (current salary 1.1M)
Jeff Zatkoff
Kari Ramo
Jonas Enroth (current salary 1.25M)
You could also trade for Reto Berra (making 1.5M, Avs could easily pick up half the contract). His numbers this year were actually fine.
Honestly, the backup goalie position is the least of our worries. Sign one of the above for one year, then make a call on LB for 2017-2018. My guess is that we'll get Berra with the Avs retaining a part of his contact. Berra for a 4th round pick in June. There you go. Taken care of.
My ranking of UFA backups to sign:
Chad Johnson (current salary 1.6M)
Al Montoya (current salary 1.1M)
Jeff Zatkoff
Kari Ramo
Jonas Enroth (current salary 1.25M)
You could also trade for Reto Berra (making 1.5M, Avs could easily pick up half the contract). His numbers this year were actually fine.
Honestly, the backup goalie position is the least of our worries. Sign one of the above for one year, then make a call on LB for 2017-2018. My guess is that we'll get Berra with the Avs retaining a part of his contact. Berra for a 4th round pick in June. There you go. Taken care of.
joestevens29
Registered User
- Apr 30, 2009
- 54,039
- 17,171
If Lyon and Brossoit is our fight for backup we are kinda screwed.
We need someone that can play potentially 20 games. When is the last time a college goalie stepped in and did this? And who knows with Brossoit, he could have a summer and come into camp and look amazing but as of now he isn't ready.
I'd have confidence with Raanta and think we do look at someone similar to him. I do however wonder if Lyon is brought in if Brossoit is dealt. I just don't see the room and two unknowns can't be your #2 and #3, especially on this club
ChaoticOrange
Registered User
If we trade Nurse for a 'top four' - which is to say, middle pairing - defenceman, fire this franchise into the sun.
McDNicks17
Moderator
I think Yale has a good shot at the NCAA Championship Tourney, so his season isn't done yet.\
edit: NVM. They already lost. He's free to make a decision.
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Well that would certainly explain why he hasn't gone pro yet... Here I was thinking his collegiate season was over
ChaoticOrange
Registered User
Travis Hamonic isn't a top four defenceman, though. He's a top pairing one, and even then I'd still be very hesitant to give up on Nurse so quickly.
Caveat Emptor with the Isles since the Reinhart trade.
McGlassbangers
Registered User
40oz
..........
- Jan 21, 2007
- 16,953
- 9
Yeah Friedman said a decision was coming soon, I think he said 48hours on Saturday.
He also mentioned LA was one of the teams involved still.
ChaoticOrange
Registered User
http://www.todaysslapshot.com/from-the-ice/dreger-oilers-brass-told-hall-close-untouchable/
Hall's not going anywhere except in a massive deal. No 'Hall for meh+picks+prospects' deals. Thank Gord.
Hall's not going anywhere except in a massive deal. No 'Hall for meh+picks+prospects' deals. Thank Gord.
McDNicks17
Moderator
Good call.
I'm behind the times. I thought the NCAA Tourney was quite a bit later last season.
Does anyone actually trust Dreger? When was the last time he was actually an insider on anything not leafs?
Its good to hear though. Hall should only be traded for a top D man.
Its good to hear though. Hall should only be traded for a top D man.
Maybe 3?
Yak's obvious. If Hall in a package can land land you a top pair dman, you do it.
And assuming we roll with Draisaitl, then Nuge can be dealt in another package that brings back a 3/4 dman and a "lesser" C to "replace" him.
If the right like deal comes along for Draisaitl, then you keep RNH and only move 2 1sts.
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