Rules for the faceoff

[dr robbie]

For reference, we play in a league that loosely follows the NHL rules. There's a guy in the league that has been getting on people's nerves in the faceoff circle. When taking a face off, he will immediately stick lift the opposing player, body him out, and then kick or pass the puck back to his defensemen. The guy is huge, so no other player really stands a physical chance against him. A lot of players have been saying that it is illegal to not play the puck initially and to just go for the stick lift. Is there any truth to this? The refs don't know what to do here and have been letting him slide so far.

 

[Summer Rose]

I see you're in St. Louis and have been a USA Hockey referee, so I can answer this question.

He is obliged to play the puck, but a stick lift is legal. Bodying out the opposing center without attempting to play the puck is technically illegal, though rarely called, according to rule 613 (e):

"A minor penalty for interference shall be assessed to any player facing-off who makes any physical contact with his opponent’s body by means of his own body or by his stick except in the course of playing the puck after the face-off has been completed."

My conclusion that the stick lift is legal is that it's an act of trying to gain possession of the puck. The entire rule 613 does not specifically disallow lifting the opposing center's stick, only playing the opposing center's body (with your own body, or stick). You can examine the entirety of rule 613 here if you'd like:

Face-Off Procedures

Edit: didn't notice at first that you said your league "loosely follows NHL rules." Perusing the NHL rule 76 regarding faceoffs, there is no verbage specifically disallowing a center to play the opposing center's body and not attempt to play the puck. If there is, I missed it on my read through.

http://1.cdn.nhle.com/downloads/2016-17_RuleBook.pdf (starts on page 117 of the PDF)

 

[ChuckLefley]

The rule you posted talks about “after the faceoff is completed. Playing the body on the drop of the puck is not making contact “after the faceoff is completed,” it is during the faceoff, thus it is not illegal. You’ll also not that he never says the guy doesn’t attempt to play the puck, he says the guy body’s up and uses his skate or stick to play the puck. Totally legal.

 

[Summer Rose]

The rule you posted talks about “after the faceoff is completed. Playing the body on the drop of the puck is not making contact “after the faceoff is completed,” it is during the faceoff, thus it is not illegal. You’ll also not that he never says the guy doesn’t attempt to play the puck, he says the guy body’s up and uses his skate or stick to play the puck. Totally legal.

Under USA Hockey rules, a faceoff is considered "completed" once the puck leaves the official's hand without errant contact on the way downwards towards the ice (in which case it's simply a "bad drop," i.e. the official's mistake, play is stopped and the faceoff taken again with no penalty to either team), provided all skaters on both teams are in a legal position (in theory you're not supposed to drop the puck if they aren't, and eject the offending team's center if they refuse instructions or don't line up in a timely manner, and so on).

A specific example of such a case is covered in the case book regarding rule 613, situation 4:

"The Linesman drops the puck and before it hits the ice, one of the centers hits the puck out of the air with the blade of his stick. Should the Linesman allow the play to continue?

Yes. Rule Reference 613(a).

As long as the player made a legal attempt to gain possession of the puck, the play shall be allowed to continue. If the Linesman had dropped the puck and it accidentally hit the stick or glove of either player facing-off, play must be immediately stopped and a new face-off conducted."

 

[tarheelhockey]

What you're describing isn't illegal, and TBH the whole point of sports is to establish a "physical advantage" over your opponent.

Maybe think less about the rulebook here (if the refs aren't calling it, the rulebook doesn't matter on a practical level anyway) and think more about how 5 guys can keep 1 guy from winning the puck. At an absolute minimum, your center should be capable of locking this guy down so he can't use his stick or turn his body. Bigger or not, he shouldn't be able to have his way with a determined centerman. If your guy can create a stalemate for even just 1 second, that's enough time to negate any initial advantage, and is plenty of time for a teammate to arrive and provide support on the loose puck. It might make the faceoffs a bit of a ****show, but it negates that guy from winning them and eventually he's going to get sick of having another center glued to him.

 

[ChuckLefley]

Under USA Hockey rules, a faceoff is considered "completed" once the puck leaves the official's hand without errant contact on the way downwards towards the ice (in which case it's simply a "bad drop," i.e. the official's mistake, play is stopped and the faceoff taken again with no penalty to either team), provided all skaters on both teams are in a legal position (in theory you're not supposed to drop the puck if they aren't, and eject the offending team's center if they refuse instructions or don't line up in a timely manner, and so on).

A specific example of such a case is covered in the case book regarding rule 613, situation 4:

"The Linesman drops the puck and before it hits the ice, one of the centers hits the puck out of the air with the blade of his stick. Should the Linesman allow the play to continue?

Yes. Rule Reference 613(a).

As long as the player made a legal attempt to gain possession of the puck, the play shall be allowed to continue. If the Linesman had dropped the puck and it accidentally hit the stick or glove of either player facing-off, play must be immediately stopped and a new face-off conducted."

The issue is that you have yet to quote anything that disproves what I said. You’ve made a claim but shown nothing to back it up. What you wrote is also extremely muddy. You say the faceoff is considered “completed” when it leaves the officials hand without errant contact on the way down. In other words it’s not completed until the puck hits the ice, at the earliest. Of course if it’s over when it hits the ice, than nobody can “win” a faceoff and the rules would turn to the regular rules. That means once one guy touches the puck he can be checked legally, which means physical contact on the faceoff is ok.

So now we have my point and your point both showing that this is legal.

 

[LarryO]

If he stick lifts every time, your center should try to anticipate it and get his stick out of the way just in time or be the first to lift or tap the other guy's stick. Or maybe he can try some of the techniques shown here: How to Win Faceoffs in Hockey - Face Off Tips

 

[Zhaolo]

wingers need to jump and take that kick pass and split the D.

 

[Summer Rose]

The issue is that you have yet to quote anything that disproves what I said. You’ve made a claim but shown nothing to back it up. What you wrote is also extremely muddy. You say the faceoff is considered “completed” when it leaves the officials hand without errant contact on the way down. In other words it’s not completed until the puck hits the ice, at the earliest. Of course if it’s over when it hits the ice, than nobody can “win” a faceoff and the rules would turn to the regular rules. That means once one guy touches the puck he can be checked legally, which means physical contact on the faceoff is ok.

So now we have my point and your point both showing that this is legal.

I have basically said two things:

1) Under USA Hockey rules, he is obliged to play the puck once the faceoff is completed (i.e. leaves the official's hand; inferred from the casebook situation I quoted). He may play the body in the process of playing the puck; playing the body with no attempt to play the puck (i.e. push the opposing center away so a winger can come in and scoop up the loose puck) is illegal.

2) If his league uses NHL rules as opposed to USA Hockey rules (not entirely clear in his original post), I was unable to find anything in the NHL rulebook that specifically disallows the latter case in #1, as oppose to the USA Hockey rulebook which specifically disallows it (rule 613e). The NHL rulebook calls for a minor penalty if you play the puck off the faceoff with your hand, however (in USA Hockey, this is not specifically illegal, but would be governed by the "hand pass" rule; i.e. illegal in the neutral or attacking zone, but legal in the defending zone).

 

[ChuckLefley]

I have basically said two things:

1) Under USA Hockey rules, he is obliged to play the puck once the faceoff is completed (i.e. leaves the official's hand; inferred from the casebook situation I quoted). He may play the body in the process of playing the puck; playing the body with no attempt to play the puck (i.e. push the opposing center away so a winger can come in and scoop up the loose puck) is illegal.

2) If his league uses NHL rules as opposed to USA Hockey rules (not entirely clear in his original post), I was unable to find anything in the NHL rulebook that specifically disallows the latter case in #1, as oppose to the USA Hockey rulebook which specifically disallows it (rule 613e). The NHL rulebook calls for a minor penalty if you play the puck off the faceoff with your hand, however (in USA Hockey, this is not specifically illegal, but would be governed by the "hand pass" rule; i.e. illegal in the neutral or attacking zone, but legal in the defending zone).

The casebook situation you posted has nothing to do with the situation being discussed.

It’s interesting to note that you don’t actually try to refute any of my points with anything that even comes close to refuting them or even acknowledge them.

Thanks for playing.

 

[Summer Rose]

The casebook situation you posted has nothing to do with the situation being discussed.

It’s interesting to note that you don’t actually try to refute any of my points with anything that even comes close to refuting them or even acknowledge them.

Thanks for playing.

This thread didn't quite strike me as an argument of any kind, but if a faceoff is considered "completed" once the puck leaves the official's hand (as inferred by the casebook situation) then the definition of "during the faceoff procedure" is necessarily defined as the period of time (5 seconds maximum in theory, in practice it's often allowed to be longer) between the whistle to indicated the completion of the line change procedure and the puck leaving the official's hand. Body contact between all opponents (including the centers) is illegal, as inferred by the positioning required for a faceoff.

 

[ChuckLefley]

This thread didn't quite strike me as an argument of any kind, but if a faceoff is considered "completed" once the puck leaves the official's hand (as inferred by the casebook situation) then the definition of "during the faceoff procedure" is necessarily defined as the period of time (5 seconds maximum in theory, in practice it's often allowed to be longer) between the whistle to indicated the completion of the line change procedure and the puck leaving the official's hand. Body contact between all opponents (including the centers) is illegal, as inferred by the positioning required for a faceoff.

Except you included “without errant contact on the way down.” Common sense says that this can’t be determined until the puck has completed its trip “down” thus a faceoff can’t be over until the puck has hit the ice...using what you posted. Once again (since you conveniently ignored it) if the faceoff is officially over at that point, it becomes a regular hockey play and checking is now legal, thus physical contact without attempting to play the puck is legal.

 

[Summer Rose]

Except you included “without errant contact on the way down.” Common sense says that this can’t be determined until the puck has completed its trip “down” thus a faceoff can’t be over until the puck has hit the ice...using what you posted. Once again (since you conveniently ignored it) if the faceoff is officially over at that point, it becomes a regular hockey play and checking is now legal, thus physical contact without attempting to play the puck is legal.

That is incorrect. I quoted a casebook situation where the question is posed as to whether it's legal for a center to bat the puck out of the air before it hits the ice. The answer is yes, it's legal. One can then infer that the puck is eligible to be played as soon as it leaves the official's hand. The part where it "errantly" strikes one of the centers' stick or glove covers the situation where the puck is unintentionally not dropped straight down. I also quoted rule 613 (e), though I'll put the important part in bold for you this time:

"A minor penalty for interference shall be assessed to any player facing-off who makes any physical contact with his opponent’s body by means of his own body or by his stick except in the course of playing the puck after the face-off has been completed."

No time frame is given for for when "after the faceoff has been completed" turns into normal hockey play, which is where common sense should prevail.

 

[ChuckLefley]

That is incorrect. I quoted a casebook situation where the question is posed as to whether it's legal for a center to bat the puck out of the air before it hits the ice. The answer is yes, it's legal. One can then infer that the puck is eligible to be played as soon as it leaves the official's hand. The part where it "errantly" strikes one of the centers' stick or glove covers the situation where the puck is unintentionally not dropped straight down. I also quoted rule 613 (e), though I'll put the important part in bold for you this time:

"A minor penalty for interference shall be assessed to any player facing-off who makes any physical contact with his opponent’s body by means of his own body or by his stick except in the course of playing the puck after the face-off has been completed."

No time frame is given for for when "after the faceoff has been completed" turns into normal hockey play, which is where common sense should prevail.

1) If I body up the opposing center in order to kick the puck back to a teammate, than I am doing it in the course of playing the puck. Thus it is legal.
2) First you say a faceoff is over when the puck leaves the refs hand, then you had the contact before it hits the ice and now you add a time frame. Why do you keep moving the goalposts? Common sense, based on what you are writing, is that it’s legal to check someone as soon as the puck is dropped or when it hits the ice.

3) You said this thread didn’t strike you as an argument, yet you keep arguing and moving the goalposts to not admit you might be wrong.

 

[Summer Rose]

1) If I body up the opposing center in order to kick the puck back to a teammate, than I am doing it in the course of playing the puck. Thus it is legal.
2) First you say a faceoff is over when the puck leaves the refs hand, then you had the contact before it hits the ice and now you add a time frame. Why do you keep moving the goalposts? Common sense, based on what you are writing, is that it’s legal to check someone as soon as the puck is dropped or when it hits the ice.

3) You said this thread didn’t strike you as an argument, yet you keep arguing and moving the goalposts to not admit you might be wrong.

1) I don't see why this wouldn't be legal.
2) Care to quote me where I said anything other than a faceoff is considered completed when the puck leaves the official's hand?
3) Okay.

 

[ChuckLefley]

1) I don't see why this wouldn't be legal.
2) Care to quote me where I said anything other than a faceoff is considered completed when the puck leaves the official's hand?
3) Okay.

1) So you’re arguing against yourself.

This thread didn't quite strike me as an argument of any kind, but if a faceoff is considered "completed" once the puck leaves the official's hand (as inferred by the casebook situation) then the definition of "during the faceoff procedure" is necessarily defined as the period of time (5 seconds maximum in theory, in practice it's often allowed to be longer) between the whistle to indicated the completion of the line change procedure and the puck leaving the official's hand. Body contact between all opponents (including the centers) is illegal, as inferred by the positioning required for a faceoff.

Oh, wait, here you’re saying it’s illegal.

Under USA Hockey rules, a faceoff is considered "completed" once the puck leaves the official's hand without errant contact on the way downwards towards the ice

2) I’ve edited your post to just include the part where you added the part about contact with the puck that clearly means that the faceoff is not over until the puck hits the ice...despite you claiming you’ve never said anything other than it’s over when it leaves the officials hand.
3) You just can’t do it, can you. Ok, I’ll move on since this clearly is important enough to move the goalposts and make claims that your own posts prove wrong. Enjoy.