i think it wouls be great to see a few rsl teams and maybe a sel team or 2 do a toer of the nhl like the russian teams did in the late 80's. it would be a good gage as to where the league stand.
discostu
Registered User
I'll echo the comments that others have made, that the leagues are close enough together, that things like ice size that they played on, would greatly impact who would come out on top.
The AHL has been dealt a strong blow, with a lot of the current CBA issues. The cap on salaries for two way contracts makes it hard to be an AHL journeyman who gets the occassional call-up, and, those players end up going overseas to play. But, the teams are generally stocked with players who could find themselves up at the NHL level, most of whom can look fairly comfortable on NHL rosters.
The RSL is a strong league, and, has the more top end talent, as they've successfully been adding talent that can play at the NHL level.
The AHL has been dealt a strong blow, with a lot of the current CBA issues. The cap on salaries for two way contracts makes it hard to be an AHL journeyman who gets the occassional call-up, and, those players end up going overseas to play. But, the teams are generally stocked with players who could find themselves up at the NHL level, most of whom can look fairly comfortable on NHL rosters.
The RSL is a strong league, and, has the more top end talent, as they've successfully been adding talent that can play at the NHL level.
That is a terrible argument, thirteen prospects given an NHL try out/audition for an NHL team who thru in the towel, which also helps explains why they did the way they did. Maybe three of them will ever make the NHL.
Look at AK-Bars; 5 players who actually played in the NHL for a significant amount of time (bonafide NHL players), 3 other players who have played in the NHL, 8 NHL prospects, and 2 players who consistantly make the Russian National team over NHL candidates.
AK-Bars clearly has a stronger roster even on the NA ice IMO, and they are not even in top 3 teams in the league.
IMO - the European posters put way too much emphasis on athestetically pleasing puck skills and pretty plays that don't tend to result in goals. These things are pretty much coached out of the AHL intentionally.
Most players drafted are gifted offensively at the junior levels but need to learn how to play a 2-way game and to execute within a very structured system. If you can make pretty plays and dangle in the AHL without getting your head taken off you are probably on your way to the NHL soon. The NHL is somewhat over-coached these days - systems oriented play dominates. NHL teams send players to the AHL to learn how to play within a system and to adapt to a physically grinding style of play. Creativity with the puck comes after this. By the time most AHL players learn to be creative within the system that is played they are either career minor leaguers (Jesse Schultz, Brad Moran etc.) or they are promoted to the NHL.
The reason some of the more gifted, but enigmatic Russians (Fedor Fedorov comes to mind) don't make it in the AHL is because they refuse to learn the systems play. From everything I have heard, junior hockey in Russia puts a much bigger emphasis on practices, drills, and puck skills and less on systems and competition. It is natural then that players graduating to the RSL exhibit a greater degree of puck skills and creativity (but fewer goals for some reason). When you look at an RSL game, the individual skills are4 obvious. When you look at an AHL game, you have to keep in mind that some of the creativity is being suppresed in favour of a systematic approach the actually produces goals (and prevents them as well).
I still think the RSL is a higher level than the AHL, but the difference is not so great.
Most players drafted are gifted offensively at the junior levels but need to learn how to play a 2-way game and to execute within a very structured system. If you can make pretty plays and dangle in the AHL without getting your head taken off you are probably on your way to the NHL soon. The NHL is somewhat over-coached these days - systems oriented play dominates. NHL teams send players to the AHL to learn how to play within a system and to adapt to a physically grinding style of play. Creativity with the puck comes after this. By the time most AHL players learn to be creative within the system that is played they are either career minor leaguers (Jesse Schultz, Brad Moran etc.) or they are promoted to the NHL.
The reason some of the more gifted, but enigmatic Russians (Fedor Fedorov comes to mind) don't make it in the AHL is because they refuse to learn the systems play. From everything I have heard, junior hockey in Russia puts a much bigger emphasis on practices, drills, and puck skills and less on systems and competition. It is natural then that players graduating to the RSL exhibit a greater degree of puck skills and creativity (but fewer goals for some reason). When you look at an RSL game, the individual skills are4 obvious. When you look at an AHL game, you have to keep in mind that some of the creativity is being suppresed in favour of a systematic approach the actually produces goals (and prevents them as well).
I still think the RSL is a higher level than the AHL, but the difference is not so great.
Well Toughness Wise,
the AHL would rock the RSL,
And i wanted to know which one is better for an argument i am having on some other forum.
Slitty
Registered User
- Oct 23, 2005
- 3,875
- 8
How about a point-per-game analysis of players who have played in both the RSL and AHL (lets say more than 20 games in both leagues) within the last two seasons. Career numbers are representative of just that; the player's career stats within that league. Stats under the "recent" heading are those accumulated within the last two seasons:
Artem Anisimov
Career RSL: 0.268 (15 points in 56 games)
Recent RSL: 0.326 (15 points in 46 games)
Career AHL: 0.557 (44 points in 79 games)
Recent AHL: 0.557 (44 points in 79 games)
Vladimir Denisov
Career RSL: 0.077 (3 points in 39 games)
Recent RSL: 0.077 (3 points in 39 games)
Career AHL: 0.121 (8 points in 66 games)
Recent AHL: 0.121 (8 points in 66 games)
Nikolai Lemtyugov
Career RSL: 0.396 (44 points in 111 games)
Recent RSL: 0.357 (20 points in 56 games)
Career AHL: 0.536 (37 points in 69 games)
Recent AHL: 0.536 (37 points in 69 games)
David Ling
Career RSL: 0.657 (65 points in 99 games)
Recent RSL: 0.644 (29 points in 45 games)
Career AHL: 0.909 (468 points in 515 games)
Recent AHL: 0.795 (62 points in 78 games)
Enver Lisin
Career RSL: 0.269 (36 points in 134 games)
Recent RSL: 0.381 (8 points in 21 games)
Career AHL: 0.606 (40 points in 66 games)
Recent AHL: 0.594 (38 points in 64 games)
Alexei Mikhnov
Career RSL: 0.429 (138 points in 322 games)
Recent RSL: 0.628 (54 points in 86 games)
Career AHL: 0.666 (18 points in 27 games)
Recent AHL: 0.666 (18 points in 27 games)
Alexander Nikulin
Career RSL: 0.420 (50 points in 119 games)
Recent RSL: 0.489 (22 points in 45 games)
Career AHL: 0.704 (50 points in 71 games)
Recent AHL: 0.704 (50 points in 71 games)
Sergei Ogorodnikov
Career RSL: 0.154 (10 points in 65 games)
Recent RSL: 0.080 (2 points in 25 games)
Career AHL: 0.222 (6 points in 27 games)
Recent AHL: 0.222 (6 points in 27 games)
Alexander Suglobov
Career RSL: 0.296 (32 points in 108 games)
Recent RSL: 0.487 (19 points in 39 games)
Career AHL: 0.695 (146 points in 210 games)
Recent AHL: 0.406 (13 points in 32 games)
Andrei Taratukhin
Career RSL: 0.346 (72 points in 208 games)
Recent RSL: 0.463 (31 points in 67 games)
Career AHL: 0.750 (60 points in 80 games)
Recent AHL: 0.750 (60 points in 80 games)
Oleg Tverdovsky
Career RSL: 0.391 (99 points in 253 games)
Recent RSL: 0.424 (25 points in 59 games)
Career AHL: 0.857 (24 points in 28 games)
Recent AHL: 0.857 (24 points in 28 games)
Pavel Valentenko
Career RSL: 0.036 (2 points in 56 games)
Recent RSL: 0.037 (2 points in 54 games)
Career AHL: 0.281 (16 points in 57 games)
Recent AHL: 0.281 (16 points in 57 games)
Darcy Verot
Career RSL: 0.070 (3 points in 43 games)
Recent RSL: 0.070 (3 points in 43 games)
Career AHL: 0.263 (110 points in 418 games)
Recent AHL: 0.338 (23 points in 68 games)
Roman Voloshenko
Career RSL: 0.115 (3 points in 26 games)
Recent RSL: 0.095 (2 points in 21 games)
Career AHL: 0.599 (91 points in 152 games)
Recent AHL: 0.395 (30 points in 76 games)
Ilya Zubov
Career RSL: 0.365 (35 points in 96 games)
Recent RSL: 0.441 (15 points in 34 games)
Career AHL: 0.514 (38 points in 74 games)
Recent AHL: 0.514 (38 points in 74 games)
As this list of players was compiled off the top of my head; my apologies to anyone whom I have surely missed. On the whole, I think the stats speak for themselves. Combine that with the fact that RSL salaries dwarf those of the AHL and the general trend is for players to have much larger roles in the AHL than they would in the RSL... Well, I personally don't see the comparison as being overly close.
PS: I think I'm developing a hate for calculators after crunching all those numbers!
Artem Anisimov
Career RSL: 0.268 (15 points in 56 games)
Recent RSL: 0.326 (15 points in 46 games)
Career AHL: 0.557 (44 points in 79 games)
Recent AHL: 0.557 (44 points in 79 games)
Vladimir Denisov
Career RSL: 0.077 (3 points in 39 games)
Recent RSL: 0.077 (3 points in 39 games)
Career AHL: 0.121 (8 points in 66 games)
Recent AHL: 0.121 (8 points in 66 games)
Nikolai Lemtyugov
Career RSL: 0.396 (44 points in 111 games)
Recent RSL: 0.357 (20 points in 56 games)
Career AHL: 0.536 (37 points in 69 games)
Recent AHL: 0.536 (37 points in 69 games)
David Ling
Career RSL: 0.657 (65 points in 99 games)
Recent RSL: 0.644 (29 points in 45 games)
Career AHL: 0.909 (468 points in 515 games)
Recent AHL: 0.795 (62 points in 78 games)
Enver Lisin
Career RSL: 0.269 (36 points in 134 games)
Recent RSL: 0.381 (8 points in 21 games)
Career AHL: 0.606 (40 points in 66 games)
Recent AHL: 0.594 (38 points in 64 games)
Alexei Mikhnov
Career RSL: 0.429 (138 points in 322 games)
Recent RSL: 0.628 (54 points in 86 games)
Career AHL: 0.666 (18 points in 27 games)
Recent AHL: 0.666 (18 points in 27 games)
Alexander Nikulin
Career RSL: 0.420 (50 points in 119 games)
Recent RSL: 0.489 (22 points in 45 games)
Career AHL: 0.704 (50 points in 71 games)
Recent AHL: 0.704 (50 points in 71 games)
Sergei Ogorodnikov
Career RSL: 0.154 (10 points in 65 games)
Recent RSL: 0.080 (2 points in 25 games)
Career AHL: 0.222 (6 points in 27 games)
Recent AHL: 0.222 (6 points in 27 games)
Alexander Suglobov
Career RSL: 0.296 (32 points in 108 games)
Recent RSL: 0.487 (19 points in 39 games)
Career AHL: 0.695 (146 points in 210 games)
Recent AHL: 0.406 (13 points in 32 games)
Andrei Taratukhin
Career RSL: 0.346 (72 points in 208 games)
Recent RSL: 0.463 (31 points in 67 games)
Career AHL: 0.750 (60 points in 80 games)
Recent AHL: 0.750 (60 points in 80 games)
Oleg Tverdovsky
Career RSL: 0.391 (99 points in 253 games)
Recent RSL: 0.424 (25 points in 59 games)
Career AHL: 0.857 (24 points in 28 games)
Recent AHL: 0.857 (24 points in 28 games)
Pavel Valentenko
Career RSL: 0.036 (2 points in 56 games)
Recent RSL: 0.037 (2 points in 54 games)
Career AHL: 0.281 (16 points in 57 games)
Recent AHL: 0.281 (16 points in 57 games)
Darcy Verot
Career RSL: 0.070 (3 points in 43 games)
Recent RSL: 0.070 (3 points in 43 games)
Career AHL: 0.263 (110 points in 418 games)
Recent AHL: 0.338 (23 points in 68 games)
Roman Voloshenko
Career RSL: 0.115 (3 points in 26 games)
Recent RSL: 0.095 (2 points in 21 games)
Career AHL: 0.599 (91 points in 152 games)
Recent AHL: 0.395 (30 points in 76 games)
Ilya Zubov
Career RSL: 0.365 (35 points in 96 games)
Recent RSL: 0.441 (15 points in 34 games)
Career AHL: 0.514 (38 points in 74 games)
Recent AHL: 0.514 (38 points in 74 games)
As this list of players was compiled off the top of my head; my apologies to anyone whom I have surely missed. On the whole, I think the stats speak for themselves. Combine that with the fact that RSL salaries dwarf those of the AHL and the general trend is for players to have much larger roles in the AHL than they would in the RSL... Well, I personally don't see the comparison as being overly close.
PS: I think I'm developing a hate for calculators after crunching all those numbers!
Martin St.Pierre was cut off from Khimik. Zenon Konopka, the captain and leader for the Crunch, tryed to get a spot on the Lada Togliatti roster, but after 4 games Lada sent him back.
RSL>>>AHL.
RedAce
Registered User
Since i have the ability to watch both RSL and AHL and have watched both this season let me say with out a shawdow of a doubt RSL!
I've watched about 40 + RSL games and still have many more to watch (get them sent to me on DVD from friends in russia)
I can watch AHL on NHL network and well most times i turn away too slow too boring skill is far below RSL.
RSL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I've watched about 40 + RSL games and still have many more to watch (get them sent to me on DVD from friends in russia)
I can watch AHL on NHL network and well most times i turn away too slow too boring skill is far below RSL.
RSL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Let me reiterate my point - the AHL is full of mistakes! It is chippy hockey. It is junior hockey stripped of the really poor players and the stars. RSL has no shortage of stars.
And for the guy talking about systems, RSL uses a more systematic style of play than AHL.
And for the guy talking about systems, RSL uses a more systematic style of play than AHL.
If they awarded points for the prettiest stick handling, passing and hair, the RSL would win by a mile. It's pond hockey. It's all star game hockey stripped of the stars with fewer goals. RSL has no shortage of primadonnas.
No seriously. Europeans look at that AHL and repeatedly say the skill level is lower. What is undoubtedly true is that the top end talent in the RSL is higher than in the AHL - because the top end talend in the AHL is in the NHL. It would be more accurate to say that the style of play in the AHL puts less emphasis on individual skills. The games are less asthetically pleasing - you can call it chippy if you prefer.
Some the the systems used in the RSL do not translate as well to a smaller ice surface with intense physical forechecking. We have seen over and over that the "simpler" dump and chase and aggressive forechecking style played in the AHL holds its own against the prettier, flow and possesion oriented style favoured in Russia. I don't think the AHL is better, but I think if meaningful head to head series were played between RSL and AHL teams the record would not be as lobsided as some think.
Yes and no.
It would all come down to what RSL teams are involved.....primarily because there's a huge talent gap between the upper and bottom tier RSL teams.
All of the 'top end' talent you mentioned is concentrated among the top 10 RSL teams. Due to this fact, any upper tier RSL team would have it pretty easy vs any AHL squad (even on NA sized ice). In fact, IMO, many of the elite RSL teams are good enough to give NHL squads a run for their money.
But for that same reason, many AHL teams would do very well against a lower level RSL team, and would, most certainly, take the series if it was on NA ice.
Canadiens1958
Registered User
Two Questions for Slitty
1.) How many junior age players are there in the RSL?
2.) In European hockey the second assist on a goal is not given as readily as in North America. Is this true for the RSL?
1.) How many junior age players are there in the RSL?
2.) In European hockey the second assist on a goal is not given as readily as in North America. Is this true for the RSL?
DisgruntledHawkFan
Blackhawk Down
Comparing a players numbers from the two leagues wouldn't work, because please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it true that the RSL doesn't count secondary assists?
Thats not a very good comparaison since the AHL is a more offensive league in term of goals scored per game.
Foreign players and contracts have something to says about that...
In another example Alexei Mikhnov was not good enough to be a top 2 liners in the AHL lastr year....
its very different because its not the same style of hockey.
the RSL is better but some arguments are just not fair I think
Pointless argument though, unless you have watched a good amount of game from both leagues, which very few here have (I have by the way). If you are only making the argument based on a few examples of players or stats, it is pointless, meeningless, as everyone is going to hold there own biased opinion. I honestly try to be unbiased and say that the RSL is a more smoother game with more skill, but the AHL has more scoring, yet more mistakes (too many for my liking) and chippier.
you make a good point about being unbiased opinion.
BUT the RSL should clearly be smoother and more skill.
ive stated already that theres alwyas a huge difference in terms of the type of league.
the RSL is the the best league in Russia if not all of Europe right?
the AHL is just a development league for the NHL. they dont care if its chipper, or the skill level. they want you to develop and learn the systems properly so you can get NHL ready. that right there should be the end of the discussion.
Alessandro Seren Rosso
Registered User
RSL does count secondary assist, just they aren't as generous as Americans are especially with big name players
Wondercarrot
By The Power of Canadian Tire Centre
- Jul 2, 2002
- 8,167
- 4,827
There are a lot of NHL-caliber players in the AHL who simply aren't good enough to make their team at that position. Remember, each AHL team is basically "farm team" or "development team" for a specific NHL team; if a defenseman on the AHL Hershey Bears isn't good enough to make the Washington Capitals, then he can't go to another NHL team unless he is traded.
NHL players who are deemed 'not good enough' are often sent down to the AHL if they can't be traded. Other leagues -- like the RSL -- sign a lot of those players. The RSL has a lot of former AHL players who were not able to perform at the NHL level, but who gave up their dream of playing in the NHL to make more money.
There are a lot of AHLrs playing in the IHHF tournament right now.
Bryanbryoil
Pray For Ukraine
- Sep 13, 2004
- 86,513
- 42,874
Look at what Mikhnov did in Wilkes Barre last year compared to what he did in Russia this year. I haven't seen a RSL game, but based on guys that have come over, they are either solid NHLers or massive busts in terms of what is expected of them. I agree with the sentiment that the RSL has the better top end players (because most really good AHLers graduate to the NHL) but that the difference in the leagues aren't by a whole hell of a lot in terms of quality. The quality of AHL teams depends on the quality of their NHL teams drafting and lack of injuries. I for one think that my own teams farm team (IF I could use every player that laced up their skates in Springfield this year) could've been competitive against a European non All-star team.
Nilsson-Pouliot-Schremp
Trukhno-Thoresen-Stortini
Jacques-O'Marra-Reddox
Simon-Sestito-Bodie
Smid-Greene
Peckham-Young
Bisaillon-Wild
Deslauriers
Dubnyk
That team has 12 players that have seen NHL action in it, and many of them are only going to get better.
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