Round 2, Vote 1 (HFNYR Top NYR Wingers All-Time)
- Thread starter Crease
- Start date
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Crease
Chief Justice of the HFNYR Court
- Jul 12, 2004
- 24,766
- 27,709
Vote 1 will begin now and debates are scheduled to run through Tuesday, January 14 Thursday, January 16. You may PM votes to Crease starting on Sunday, January 12.
I decided to give a little more than the normal five days for the first discussion thread to get everyone going.
I will be sending out confirmations when I receive ballots from the voters. Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume I never received it and should either resubmit it or contact me to arrange a different method to submit the ballots.
Vote 1 will be for places 1 through 5 on the Top 10 list.
Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:
Andy Bathgate
Bill Cook
Bun Cook
Cecil Dillon
Rod Gilbert
Adam Graves
Vic Hadfield
Bryan Hextall
Jaromir Jagr
Lynn Patrick
I decided to give a little more than the normal five days for the first discussion thread to get everyone going.
I will be sending out confirmations when I receive ballots from the voters. Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume I never received it and should either resubmit it or contact me to arrange a different method to submit the ballots.
Vote 1 will be for places 1 through 5 on the Top 10 list.
Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:
Andy Bathgate
Bill Cook
Bun Cook
Cecil Dillon
Rod Gilbert
Adam Graves
Vic Hadfield
Bryan Hextall
Jaromir Jagr
Lynn Patrick
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Sweet. This is almost my exact top 10, except Graves is here in place of Camille Henry, which I am totally okay with as I had them super close. Great list
To me, personally, it is a difficult decision between Bill Cook and Andy Bathgate at the top. Cook played on much better teams, but even on very poor NYR teams, Bathgate was superb. He even won a Hart on a NYR team that didn't make the playoffs, which is impressive. In looking deeper today at just how good Bathgate was, here are the top 10 PPG leaders during Bathgate's tenure in NY after his short rookie season, and how Bathgate fared amid a pretty elite group of Hall of Famers...
NHL Top 10 PPG players from 1954-55 to 1963-64
Player
|
PPG
Jean Beliveau|1.17
Gordie Howe|1.12
Andy Bathgate|1.07
Bernie Geoffrion|1.06
Maurice Richard|0.98
Bobby Hull|0.97
Stan Mikita|0.94
Dickie Moore|0.93
Henri Richard|0.93
Frank Mahovlich|0.85
NHL Top 10 PPG players from 1954-55 to 1963-64
Jean Beliveau|1.17
Gordie Howe|1.12
Andy Bathgate|1.07
Bernie Geoffrion|1.06
Maurice Richard|0.98
Bobby Hull|0.97
Stan Mikita|0.94
Dickie Moore|0.93
Henri Richard|0.93
Frank Mahovlich|0.85
I have Cook ahead, too, but my above - with Bathgate scoring ahead of Geoffrion, Rocket Richard, Bobby Hull and Stan Mikita - is not a bad argument lol. And I have Hextall ahead of Gilbert, though it's close.
Greg02
Registered User
- Jun 28, 2009
- 4,535
- 4,048
Cook's cups, status as the premiere right winger of his generation, and position as the first captain of the Rangers gives him an edge over Bathgate in my mind, but I came into this thinking it would be Cook and everyone else, and right now I think that it's Cook and Bathgate, then everyone else.
Hextall seems to be more of a top end player than Gilbert does. The cups are big for him. His success also came before the league really got depleted a lot, right? Do people consider Gilbert the best Rangers forward ever because of his longevity only, or is there something I'm missing?
I'm beginning to think Cecil Dillon for the five spot. He has the retro Smythe and AST voting. He's also a LW. I'm not sure whether that's a positive or negative. On the one hand it has weaker competition for voting, but on the other hand he's arguably the strongest LW on the list. We need one in the top 5, right?
I wonder why Dillon isn't in the hall, but Bun is.
Hextall seems to be more of a top end player than Gilbert does. The cups are big for him. His success also came before the league really got depleted a lot, right? Do people consider Gilbert the best Rangers forward ever because of his longevity only, or is there something I'm missing?
I'm beginning to think Cecil Dillon for the five spot. He has the retro Smythe and AST voting. He's also a LW. I'm not sure whether that's a positive or negative. On the one hand it has weaker competition for voting, but on the other hand he's arguably the strongest LW on the list. We need one in the top 5, right?
I wonder why Dillon isn't in the hall, but Bun is.
Winning the cups, scoring the game winning goal, being tough as nails and spending his whole career as the ranger captain gives Bill Cook the edge over Bathgate.
The sad thing is we will never know how good Bathgate could have really been if he was not injured early in his career. Being as prolific scorer as he was despite the metal plate gives him a lot of props, but he never won that cup with the Rangers.
PS: I suggest adding "All time" in the thread title.
The sad thing is we will never know how good Bathgate could have really been if he was not injured early in his career. Being as prolific scorer as he was despite the metal plate gives him a lot of props, but he never won that cup with the Rangers.
PS: I suggest adding "All time" in the thread title.
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Do not disagree with any of what you said. I do find it worth noting that I cannot punish Bathgate over not winning a Cup in NY due to poor management. After all, Bathgate did win a Cup the very season he was traded to Toronto lol
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I am spot on with your consensus. I have Cook and Bathgate, and everyone else. My 3, 4, 5 is also Hextall, Gilbert and Dillon, in that order. My own way of doing this was based on 11 criteria, and my top 6 came as follows:
Bill Cook - 77
Andy Bathgate - 71
Bryan Hextall - 57
Rod Gilbert - 51
Cecil Dillon - 41
Bun Cook - 39
This accounted for cups, awards, scoring, adjusted scoring, all star team selections, physical play, playoff performance, defensive play, length of NYR career, number of playoff appearances, and so on.
I have a hard time putting Dillon in my Top 5 which is Bill Cook, Bathgate, Gilbert, Jagr and Graves and here's why: I don't think you can be in that top group if you weren't the best on the Rangers of that era, unless you did something else of major significance for the franchise. If you were the second, third or fourth, etc...winger on a team, then it's hard for me to place ahead of players who were clearly the best winger on their teams.
A few points about Bill Cook and Andy Bathgate. I was going to post about more players now but need to get some work done and will be back later.
Bill Cook gets the nod for the top spot because of the Cups - but the Cups are a tie-breaker for me because at some point you need to have criteria that matters that will tip the scales in favor of one player over another. You might not think it's fair to hold Bathgate's lack of Cups against him, but isn't it more unfair to discount Cook's Cups?
Bill Cook was every bit as dominating for the Rangers as a scorer as anybody for his 1st 9 seasons (there were two seasons at the end of his career where his production dipped, when he was 47 and 48). No winger scored more goals than him during those 9 seasons - None! - and there were 3 seasons where his goal scoring was ridiculous in comparison to the next highest player - i.e., 33 goals to 14 for the next highest, 30 to 18 and 33 to 23. And his goal totals weren't just Ranger specific he was at the top among goal scorers in comparison to the rest of the league.
Andy Bathgate has the stats and tenure which put him neck and neck with Bill Cook at the outset of the discussion. The Hart Trophy is big but I wonder how big a league-wide honor should be when coming up with a team-scpecific list. In the end, the Cups tilt the balance to Bill Cook for the top spot and Bathgate is #2 for me.
A few points about Bill Cook and Andy Bathgate. I was going to post about more players now but need to get some work done and will be back later.
Bill Cook gets the nod for the top spot because of the Cups - but the Cups are a tie-breaker for me because at some point you need to have criteria that matters that will tip the scales in favor of one player over another. You might not think it's fair to hold Bathgate's lack of Cups against him, but isn't it more unfair to discount Cook's Cups?
Bill Cook was every bit as dominating for the Rangers as a scorer as anybody for his 1st 9 seasons (there were two seasons at the end of his career where his production dipped, when he was 47 and 48). No winger scored more goals than him during those 9 seasons - None! - and there were 3 seasons where his goal scoring was ridiculous in comparison to the next highest player - i.e., 33 goals to 14 for the next highest, 30 to 18 and 33 to 23. And his goal totals weren't just Ranger specific he was at the top among goal scorers in comparison to the rest of the league.
Andy Bathgate has the stats and tenure which put him neck and neck with Bill Cook at the outset of the discussion. The Hart Trophy is big but I wonder how big a league-wide honor should be when coming up with a team-scpecific list. In the end, the Cups tilt the balance to Bill Cook for the top spot and Bathgate is #2 for me.
Crease
Chief Justice of the HFNYR Court
- Jul 12, 2004
- 24,766
- 27,709
Without spoiling things too much, Vickers made the Vote 2 ballot so he has a shot for a spot in the 6-10 range next week.
Greg02
Registered User
- Jun 28, 2009
- 4,535
- 4,048
Which of these 10 names would you argue Kovalev was better than as a Rangers winger?
What's Kovalev's best season in NY - 55, 56 points? I had Graves 10th and Graves almost scored that many goals one season, and was a vastly more complete and impactful player. To me, Kovalev is nowhere near the caliber of anyone on the list, so perhaps it might be easier if you explain why he should be there.
So then, with the immediate mission of our 1st five overall, is it fair to say that AT MINIMUM, Bill Cook and Bathgate are the top 2; no other contenders for first duo?
If we agree then we can focus on discussion for slots 3-5...
If we agree then we can focus on discussion for slots 3-5...
I am not ready to agree to that. Why wouldn't Hextall Sr be part of the discussion as #2?
In my mind it's Bill Cook as clear #1, Bathgate and Hextall are battling it out for that #2 spot.
Here is my argument for Hextall: He was a fierce hitter who also led the league in goals scored 2 years in a row (Love those players), he was durable (Played 340 consecutive games), also clutch and won the cup.
Scored the OT GWG of the 1940 SC on the road.
Maybe I should not punish Bathgate for not winning the cup with the Rangers, but I find equally as tough to punish Hextall for winning it in such clutch fashion.
Little known fact about him is he started his career as a goalie because he could not skate. Nowadays, he would have probably been traded for a smoother skating Dman who "fits the system" (sorry couldn't resist
).I have Cook #1 and Bathgate #2, but I would think a strong argument could be made for Rod Gilbert.
How does the franchise's leading scorer not merit discussion?
Rod Gilbert:
*Rangers team career points leader with 1,021.
*The only player in Ranger history with over 1,000 points. A feat that won't likely be duplicated.
*Rangers team career goal scoring leader with 406.
*Over 1,000 games played as a Ranger and never donned another NHL sweater. Only 2 other players can say they played over 1,000 games as a Ranger.
*Set the Rangers record for RW's with 97 points in a season...then tied it a few seasons later for good measure. The only RW to break the record was Jagr.
*67 playoff points in 79 games.
*First Ranger to have his number retired.
Some other accomplishments taken from his page on the NYR site:
MAJOR NHL AWARDS/ACHIEVEMENTS WITH RANGERS
Hockey Hall of Fame — Inducted 1982
Masterton Trophy — 1975-76
Lester Patrick Trophy — 1991
NHL First All-Star Team — 1971-72
NHL Second All-Star Team — 1967-68
NHL All-Star Game — 1964, 1965, 1966, 1967, 1969, 1970, 1972, 1975, 1977
*Gilbert's 9 appearances are a team record for All Star Game appearances.
RANGERS TEAM AWARDS
Rangers MVP — 1967-68, 1974-75, 1975-76
Players` Player Award — 1963-64 (co-winner)
Boucher Trophy (Most Popular) — 1963-64, 1974-75, 1975-76, 1976-77
Rangers Good Guy Award — 1977-78
"Crumb Bum" Award (Community Service) — 1998-99
RANGERS TEAM LEADER
Most points — 1964-65, 1974-75, 1975-76
Most goals — 1964-65, 1966-67, 1973-74, 1974-75 (tie), 1975-76
Most assists — 1964-65, 1967-68, 1968-69, 1972-73, 1974-75, 1976-77
Most playoff points — 1967, 1968, 1970
Most playoff goals — 1967 (tie), 1968, 1970, 1972 (tie)
Most playoff assists — 1970
Here's the post Crease did about Gilbert in the initial thread (I hope this cut and pastes correctly):
How does the franchise's leading scorer not merit discussion?
Rod Gilbert:
*Rangers team career points leader with 1,021.
*The only player in Ranger history with over 1,000 points. A feat that won't likely be duplicated.
*Rangers team career goal scoring leader with 406.
*Over 1,000 games played as a Ranger and never donned another NHL sweater. Only 2 other players can say they played over 1,000 games as a Ranger.
*Set the Rangers record for RW's with 97 points in a season...then tied it a few seasons later for good measure. The only RW to break the record was Jagr.
*67 playoff points in 79 games.
*First Ranger to have his number retired.
Some other accomplishments taken from his page on the NYR site:
MAJOR NHL AWARDS/ACHIEVEMENTS WITH RANGERS
Hockey Hall of Fame — Inducted 1982
Masterton Trophy — 1975-76
Lester Patrick Trophy — 1991
NHL First All-Star Team — 1971-72
NHL Second All-Star Team — 1967-68
NHL All-Star Game — 1964, 1965, 1966, 1967, 1969, 1970, 1972, 1975, 1977
*Gilbert's 9 appearances are a team record for All Star Game appearances.
RANGERS TEAM AWARDS
Rangers MVP — 1967-68, 1974-75, 1975-76
Players` Player Award — 1963-64 (co-winner)
Boucher Trophy (Most Popular) — 1963-64, 1974-75, 1975-76, 1976-77
Rangers Good Guy Award — 1977-78
"Crumb Bum" Award (Community Service) — 1998-99
RANGERS TEAM LEADER
Most points — 1964-65, 1974-75, 1975-76
Most goals — 1964-65, 1966-67, 1973-74, 1974-75 (tie), 1975-76
Most assists — 1964-65, 1967-68, 1968-69, 1972-73, 1974-75, 1976-77
Most playoff points — 1967, 1968, 1970
Most playoff goals — 1967 (tie), 1968, 1970, 1972 (tie)
Most playoff assists — 1970
Here's the post Crease did about Gilbert in the initial thread (I hope this cut and pastes correctly):
Tenure:
18 seasons (1961-1978)
587 Wins 549 Losses 212 Ties
Awards and Achievements:
Stanley Cup Finalist (1972)
First Team All-Star (1972)
Second Team All-Star (1968)
Hart Voting – 7th(1967), 10th (1968)
Scoring:
NHL Points – 5th(1968), 5th(1972), 7th(1965), 8th(1975), 9th(1964)
NHL Goals – 4th(1967), 7th(1972), 8th(1965), 9th(1964), 10th(1974)
NHL Assists – 2nd(1968), 6th(1969), 6th(1972), 6th(1973), 7th(1965), 9th(1964), 9th(1975)
Play-off Points – 9th(1972)
Play-off Goals – 4th(1972), 8th(1968)
Play-off Assists – 8th(1972)
Gilbert's prime was from 1968 to 1976. Here is where he ranks within those years:
6th in Points
7th in Goals
6th in assists
10th in Play-off Points
8th in Play-off Goals
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Ratelleitlikeitis
Registered User
I'm leaning to Gilbert for all the statistical proof provided and the fact that he did all that after breaking his back in junior. Imagine what he might have done without requiring spinal fusion and months of rehab!
Thanks all.
Pending further commentary, I gather it is Bill Cook, #1,
2, 3, 4 to be sorted out between Bathgate, Hextall, Gilbert.
look forward to all comments and also who then is #5?
If I understood Crease correctly, in this round
we are actually voting 8, with the idea of shaping a consensus top 5
Pending further commentary, I gather it is Bill Cook, #1,
2, 3, 4 to be sorted out between Bathgate, Hextall, Gilbert.
look forward to all comments and also who then is #5?
If I understood Crease correctly, in this round
we are actually voting 8, with the idea of shaping a consensus top 5
I don't believe Hextall belongs in the rarified air at the top of this list. I will try and compile stats later but my memory of looking over his stats earlier was that as clutch as he might have been in 1940, he might have actually been more fortunate than clutch -at least if you go by the rest of his playoff resume. My memory is that there were quite a few playoffs where Hextall was a no-show - 0 goals, 1 assist and a quick exit after 3 games. I also believe that for as much as perhaps half of his Ranger career, he was not the best Ranger winger on his teams. I can't place him on the same level as Cook, Bathgate and Gilbert when his time as top Ranger winger might have been 5 seasons and maybe fewer. More to come.
