Speculation: Roster building thread XXIII: Heading into doldrum days and All Star break
- Thread starter BBKers
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Brooklyn Rangers Fan
Change is good.
I played when I was younger.
I fail to see what that has to do with committing a lot of money and term to a player who’s going to start his natural regression with the retirement contract you have in mind.
Kreider is replaceable. As was Zucc. Staal and Girardi were replaceable too, but your mindset seems to be on par with Glen Sathers.
NYSPORTS
back afta dis. . .
- Jun 17, 2019
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Responding to last thread
I like Kreider, always have. Yet, if Kreider is as great as some believe, IMO the Rangers would have made him a Captain already and wouldn’t be flirting with this expiring contract. In a trade, the return on Kreider should be significant if he’s that good.
IMO, without Panerin this offense is ordinary and the poll is even more in favor of trading him than it already is.
I like Kreider, always have. Yet, if Kreider is as great as some believe, IMO the Rangers would have made him a Captain already and wouldn’t be flirting with this expiring contract. In a trade, the return on Kreider should be significant if he’s that good.
IMO, without Panerin this offense is ordinary and the poll is even more in favor of trading him than it already is.
I guess where we differ is, I don't think he's as replaceable as you think and trading him without a suitable replacement makes this team much, much worse next year. They're back to being a one line team with two good centers and not enough wings to contribute. Need more than Panarin and Kakko.
Fitzy
Very Stable Genius
- Jan 29, 2009
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To points in the previous thread-
In the hypothetical where the 3 goalie system works, they really have to find a calendar schedule so that they can send Shesty down to play AHL games during his breaks. It's unfortunate that Georgy isnt still waiver exempt so that they could do the same for him.
Buchnevich is probably going to end the season with around 40 points again. Not everyone is either a first liner or a defensive forward. The decision to keep or not keep him should have to do with factors unrelated to his Eli Manning impersonations on the bench.
The Rangers love Kreider, and we see this, but they loved Zucc too. Team has to be smart about this and make it a business decision.
In the hypothetical where the 3 goalie system works, they really have to find a calendar schedule so that they can send Shesty down to play AHL games during his breaks. It's unfortunate that Georgy isnt still waiver exempt so that they could do the same for him.
Buchnevich is probably going to end the season with around 40 points again. Not everyone is either a first liner or a defensive forward. The decision to keep or not keep him should have to do with factors unrelated to his Eli Manning impersonations on the bench.
The Rangers love Kreider, and we see this, but they loved Zucc too. Team has to be smart about this and make it a business decision.
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
The challenge with caps is that teams can't just toggle them off when shit gets inconvenient and they face uncomfortable decisions.
It would be great if we could just keep everyone we have and then add to them with some deft maneuvering. But everything is inter-connected.
So, you go out and you finally get a superstar LW in Panarin, but that makes keeping your former first line LW (and third best forward) more challenging.
You could move your LD and go with a very young, and somewhat unspectacular core of LDs, but does that make you better overall? Eh, not really sure about that.
You can trade Buch, but trading him isn't really the issue. It's what you get back for him. So if you need to move him for salary room, that's different than trading him for, say, a less skilled, but similarly priced power forward. Because as result of other moves, that's not going to work financially. So now you're trading Buch for a prospect on the cusp, maybe a pick, and neither of those are going to be as good as the pick/prospect you weren't interested in had you moved Kreider.
So we end up with a different looking team for sure, but not one that strikes me as a "better" team per se.
It would be great if we could just keep everyone we have and then add to them with some deft maneuvering. But everything is inter-connected.
So, you go out and you finally get a superstar LW in Panarin, but that makes keeping your former first line LW (and third best forward) more challenging.
You could move your LD and go with a very young, and somewhat unspectacular core of LDs, but does that make you better overall? Eh, not really sure about that.
You can trade Buch, but trading him isn't really the issue. It's what you get back for him. So if you need to move him for salary room, that's different than trading him for, say, a less skilled, but similarly priced power forward. Because as result of other moves, that's not going to work financially. So now you're trading Buch for a prospect on the cusp, maybe a pick, and neither of those are going to be as good as the pick/prospect you weren't interested in had you moved Kreider.
So we end up with a different looking team for sure, but not one that strikes me as a "better" team per se.
You’re probably right about next season and I understand your stance here. I’m more concerned with the big picture though.
I have a lot of concerns tying up close to 50m for our 2LW until 2027 when we’re going to have a plethora of contracts due for their raises.
You can say that all you want, but it doesn’t change the fact that that isn’t how roster moves are made. They don’t happen in a vacuum. Other moves are made. Teams don’t only trade expiring UFAs when there is an internal answer ready to step in. The fact that there isn’t a Kreider replacement on deck isn’t a reason that you don’t trade Kreider (his age, contract demands, current growth cycle of the team are). If that were true, you can say the same of anyone. People want to trade Skjei. Whose the replacement? It ain’t Hajek. Rykov hasn’t played an NHL game yet. Miller is still 2 years from even breaking in the bottom four, let alone taking on 20+ minutes. If you move Buch who steps up to provide 45+ points on the wing? Kravstov hasn’t proven anything yet. Kakko needs to take a big step. Everything you’re saying sounds great in principle.
The principle of respecting what Kreider brings and wondering where that replacement comes from is perfectly fine. Being turned off by the uncertainty in whether or not an adequate replacement is brought in is fine. Requiring that the true and logical answers to that question are off limits because they don’t provide written in stone names makes it more of an “I dare you to argue against keeping Kreider” rather than truly wanting to discuss how he is replaced. Because it doesn’t happen in a vacuum and other moves are made. Every year, by every team. That’s how roster turnover goes.
If you want a specific name? We should be targeting Julian Gauthier. Even if it means we’re getting Gauthier and a 3rd or we’re throwing in Lias or adding Georgiev (maybe they want McKegg back since he did well for them in the playoffs). Julian Gauthier would replace Chris Kreider.
The factor that he’s engaged and playing makes this worse. If he would have started well but coasting for the last 20 games, there would be a a little less panic.
BBKers
Registered User
A name I heard brought up yesterday was Andreas Athanasiou. Likely something built around Lias SilverMan and another asset.
Lion Hound
Pornhub Enthusiast
His offense is about as steady as your going to find on the club. Prior to Panarin he was doing the same thing.
The difference with Panarin here, is the club now has 2 legitimate lines. Tougher for clubs to counter that.
NYSPORTS
back afta dis. . .
- Jun 17, 2019
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Respectfully, this isn’t a playoff team with Kreider so how much worse can it get? And if at 28 years old he still hasn’t been named the Captain with his tenure do the Rangers think as highly of him as you and other do?
Lion Hound
Pornhub Enthusiast
I don't care where they spend their money, I care how they spend it. If two or your best players play wing, so be it. I understand the need to plan for the future but it shouldn't come at the cost of keeping your best players. There's tons of money coming off the books in the next few years.
BBKers
Registered User
Good call, this is a name I mentioned a few months ago. There is interest there for sure. Let’s see what happens The next 39 days (until Feb 25 at 15:00). Lots of opportunities. Deals will likely take place as late as possible due to many presumptive contenders being cash strapped. Retainment will be a way of securing more assets in a very special TDL scenario.
They didn't name Zib captain either, so by that logic they don't think highly of him? Who cares about who gets named captain?
Brooklyn Rangers Fan
Change is good.
NYSPORTS
back afta dis. . .
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As long as Athansiou is not the return for Georgiev or Buchnevich, I am fine with this.
Love Athansiou and Mantha. Bertuzzi too. For Lias and say a draft pick or B prospect im all for it. These guys are still young, around 25 years old. Detroit might not be ready to compete for another 3 years. They would provide much needed depth to this team.
Edit: Also Athansiou AND Mantha have been on IR.
So a player’s importance or standing with the team is determined by them being named Captain or not...
sheesh...
sheesh...
haveandare
Registered User
The thing with the argument that we traded Zucc, Hayes, Nash, McDonagh, etc so we might as well trade Kreider too is that those were all needed things because at those times we desperately needed young assets that we got in return.
At this point, there's a legitimate question as to what this organization needs more between more young assets/picks and established veteran top 6 forwards who provide leadership and stability.
Without Kreider and with Strome and Fast in question, the only experienced players in the entire forward group are Panarin who has been in NY a year, Mika, and Buchnevich who doesn't really seem to be a leader by any means. At some point you have to ask yourself if you're teetering on the edge of an Oilers type tear down where you tear down too deep, try to backfill leadership with UFA retread who have no experience in your organization, and you end up with a bunch of talented kids trying to swim in the deep end all alone.
There is nobody to replace Kreider either from an on-ice perspective or from a leadership perspective. People saying Kakko can replace Kreider on ice are really reducing both guys down. Both are big guys who play some kind of power forward game, but Kakko isn't a net front player like Kreider is and even though his skating will definitely improve, he'll almost certainly never have Kreider's speed to push D back. Those are probably the two biggest parts of Kreider's game. Leadership wise, there's more to it than being a supportive person or someone who can rally the guys behind you. A team also needs some leaders who are comfortable and established within the organization, which Kreider and very few other guys left are. It's hard to go to someone for support when they're just getting comfortable themselves.
So, yeah we did move a ton of veterans that people were attached to and it did end up being beneficial, but the team today isn't the same team the those guys were taken off of. There's real reasons to doubt that trading Kreider will be beneficial.
At this point, there's a legitimate question as to what this organization needs more between more young assets/picks and established veteran top 6 forwards who provide leadership and stability.
Without Kreider and with Strome and Fast in question, the only experienced players in the entire forward group are Panarin who has been in NY a year, Mika, and Buchnevich who doesn't really seem to be a leader by any means. At some point you have to ask yourself if you're teetering on the edge of an Oilers type tear down where you tear down too deep, try to backfill leadership with UFA retread who have no experience in your organization, and you end up with a bunch of talented kids trying to swim in the deep end all alone.
There is nobody to replace Kreider either from an on-ice perspective or from a leadership perspective. People saying Kakko can replace Kreider on ice are really reducing both guys down. Both are big guys who play some kind of power forward game, but Kakko isn't a net front player like Kreider is and even though his skating will definitely improve, he'll almost certainly never have Kreider's speed to push D back. Those are probably the two biggest parts of Kreider's game. Leadership wise, there's more to it than being a supportive person or someone who can rally the guys behind you. A team also needs some leaders who are comfortable and established within the organization, which Kreider and very few other guys left are. It's hard to go to someone for support when they're just getting comfortable themselves.
So, yeah we did move a ton of veterans that people were attached to and it did end up being beneficial, but the team today isn't the same team the those guys were taken off of. There's real reasons to doubt that trading Kreider will be beneficial.
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