Speculation: Roster Building Thread - Part XXXV
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Guy's waitin to go on the attack ova here! On stand by. Straight from upstate ova here! Hey! F'n biggot ova here sees my last name. Talks about Mario and Luigi.
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TheBloodyNine
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smoneil
Registered User
The "something somethings" you glossed over are what people generally refer to as "facts." I did all of the work and gave them to you. Your response was the rhetorical equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears. The roster you suggested is 99% unlikely to work under the cap. This is literally how this conversation has been going:
smoneil
Registered User
Recalling Kravtsov after the end of his KHL loan doesn't do that. Drury didn't banish Krav. Krav banished himself, and Drury went out of his way to help the kid sugar-coat what happened by agreeing to the loan (Krav could have easily been twisting in the wind all year). Making a move to bring Krav back doesn't "acknowledge" that Drury did anything wr0ng. It just puts Kravtsov where Drury wanted him from the beginning--and you can bet that a stint in the AHL is going to be part of the requirement for Krav's return.
There will be an AHL stint, some heart rate readings, and a slap from Don Corleone telling him to be a man - then all is forgiven
smoneil
Registered User
I can always tell which way the spin is going when someone opens with the "it's been 5 years" line. He's played 2.5 seasons worth of games. And his first "year" was 9 games in his first month as an 18 year old. He put up the same number of points in progressively fewer games for three seasons running, getting 3rd/4th line minutes, with just about every scrub winger on the roster. This year, he's gripping the stick (see shooting% at about half of what it was the last two years), and people want to think he's regressed rather than just having a bad stretch.
People keep saying he "failed to earn the 2nd line center" position, but that position wasn't open. He literally only got one or two games there all season. Funny thing, he's performed well as a top 6 center when his number has been called (see Zib injuries, when he stepped in between Kreider and Buch).
You say he is "either a bottom six winger" or trade bait--he, literally two games ago, was playing excellent hockey as the RW on the Panarin/Strome line. Despite that, he got bumped back down when DRYDEN HUNT got healthy. It's absurd.
I know at this point that I'm not going to convince any anti-Chytil folks to change their views on the player any more than they are going to change mine, but I remain perplexed by how polarizing this 22 year old is on these boards. It honestly seems like there are several people who would rather see him fail than succeed (and I half wonder if that's the reason they want him traded before he gets any actual opportunity to do so--if he succeeds somewhere else, they can go "well that never would have happened here." If he succeeds here, they would need to own up to the possibility that their years of hating on the kid were actually in error). This last bit isn't aimed at you, mottosays. But there are several people who have been on such a campaign against Chytil that if you search GDT for "Chytil" you will literally see them doing almost nothing else but posting negative comments about the player, even in games where he's not playing.
Kocur Dill
picklicious
- Feb 7, 2010
- 3,331
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To me. Chytil has two options.
Start killing it on offense as an RW.
Or, learn Defense and winning faceoffs to supplement his 20/25 ptprs game.
His days a 2c prospect are over. Because as a 2c he needs be in the 50pt defensively reliable wheelhouse or 70pt defensive liability role. Those are the status quo roles of NHL centers. Outside of the rare guys who are 70pt defensively reliable all-stars.
Being a 25pt guy isn't a bad thing. Especially when you have hussle and heart. But, his weak defense, FO, and body contact game are not conducive to an NHL bottom 6 on a serious cup contender.
Disagree? Give me two examples of a bottom 6 guy who is weak defensively, as well as physically, and doesn't contribute points.
I like the kid so much, but reality is reality. He isn't any better than Gauthier yet Goat gets heat and Chytil gets love.
This is on Turk ar this point to have heart to heart with the kid and explain to him which role his talent is geared towards to have a successful NHL career.
He has wheels. He is willing to work and learn. He doesn't have hands of stone, but his IQ is suspect. He has a lot of tools to be a successful bottom 6 player. He just need s direction. I'm sorry, I just don't see top 6 talent. All that's left is the desire to be the best at what he CAN BE!
Start killing it on offense as an RW.
Or, learn Defense and winning faceoffs to supplement his 20/25 ptprs game.
His days a 2c prospect are over. Because as a 2c he needs be in the 50pt defensively reliable wheelhouse or 70pt defensive liability role. Those are the status quo roles of NHL centers. Outside of the rare guys who are 70pt defensively reliable all-stars.
Being a 25pt guy isn't a bad thing. Especially when you have hussle and heart. But, his weak defense, FO, and body contact game are not conducive to an NHL bottom 6 on a serious cup contender.
Disagree? Give me two examples of a bottom 6 guy who is weak defensively, as well as physically, and doesn't contribute points.
I like the kid so much, but reality is reality. He isn't any better than Gauthier yet Goat gets heat and Chytil gets love.
This is on Turk ar this point to have heart to heart with the kid and explain to him which role his talent is geared towards to have a successful NHL career.
He has wheels. He is willing to work and learn. He doesn't have hands of stone, but his IQ is suspect. He has a lot of tools to be a successful bottom 6 player. He just need s direction. I'm sorry, I just don't see top 6 talent. All that's left is the desire to be the best at what he CAN BE!
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smoneil
Registered User
The team is trying to win. The owner fired management and coach for not doing so. You're the new coach. Do you ride the two top Cs in their prime, or do you give a chance to the 22 year old? The top 6 center and LW spots were never open this season. The RW spots were open, and both Laf and Chytil have had time there, both playing well when given the opportunity (despite it not being their natural positions).
With the team's record being what it is, there is no chance--repeat--no chance that they would have "moved on from" Strome with how well he's played and how much Panarin pines for him.
I'm the first to admit that Chytil has struggled this year. That said, I don't see how his struggles are any different from Kakko's or Laf's except for the fact that he's had fewer opportunities and has a better track record of production (even relative to the same age).
We gave up on Marc Savard and watched him become a 1C in Calgary. Philly gave up on Justin Williams and watched him become an all time playoff clutch scorer. Just for once, why don't we hang on to promising young players and let them develop here rather than watching them thrive in another jersey? We can't afford Strome anyway, so why not do for Chytil what they did for Kakko this year--roll into next year with Chytil penciled in as the 2C, but also signing a vet for the 3C spot who can step up if needed/if it isn't working. But to yeet the kid before he ever gets an extended look in the top six is just wasting a promising resource--at a position that we desperately need promising resources, Ii might add.
smoneil
Registered User
Re: the bold-- "continue" killing it on offense as an RW. I still have no idea why he was taken off that line in favor of Hunt.
Re: the italicized, he's fine defensively. He's never going to be a Selke candidate, but he always backchecks hard
Also re: the italicized--his production requires context. In 18/19, his 23 points were in 75 games. In 19/20, yeah, he scored 23 points again, but this time in only 60 games. In 20/21? 22 points, but this time with no PP time, in only 42 games, and 1:30 less ice time per game. His point totals looked the same, but his production relative to his use went up consistently three years in a row. Yeah, this year he's struggled, but looking at the last four seasons, this year looks like the outlier (see shooting %).
Re: the underlined, Gaut gets more heat than Chytil for two reasons. 1- Gaut is two full years older than Chytil. If Chytil is still where he is now in two years? That's a problem. 2- Gaut, in his career, has only put up 17 points.
Re: the entire post--your entire argument is built on the idea that what he is right now is all he can be unless he wants to reinvent himself as a plug. Again, he's 22 years old. I can give you a list longer than my arm of NHL players who blew up and became impact players after the age of 22, many of whom hadn't shown even as much as Chytil has through this point.
smoneil
Registered User
And if he was sent to the AHL in his 2nd/3rd year where he should have been (being blocked by two top Cs entering their prime), he'd almost certainly be seen as a top prospect who'd been tearing up the AHL for a couple of years who'd have the boards all kinds of excited. How long ago was Barron drafted? He's older than Chytil, has achieved less in the AHL than Chytil did in his limited time there, but people are still excited about him. It goes back to what I've said before. Whether conscious or not, I think a lot of people dismiss Chytil not based on his potential, but because they are bored with him.
As for Drury and Strome? I'd say that Chytil "forced the issue" with his play/production last season. You'll notice that Strome is still here. And that isn't a knock against Strome. He's a hell of a player, with the added benefit of having one of the best players in the league on his LW. It'd be just shy of impossible for a 22 year old center with a rotating cast of kids, grinders, and 4th liners on his wings, getting 8-10 fewer minutes per game, to "force the issue."
smoneil
Registered User
Fortunately (or unfortunately) we are also entering a period of two years where the salary cap is going to f*** us dirty. We can't afford to retain Strome barring a MASSIVE discount, and we can't afford to bring in a high end 2C either unless it is via trade for an ELC/2nd contract level player (which are rarely available). The smartest move, in my opinion, is to give Chytil an extended audition at 2C between Kreider and Kakko. Put Panarin with Zib, and bring in an experienced (ie: affordable) vet to play 3C. If it doesn't work after ~25/30 games, swap Chytil and the vet and maybe start exploring possible trade options. We don't have the "luxury" of throwing out a cheap player who could potentially fill that 2c spot without at least giving him the opportunity first. Will that make next year's team a bit worse than this year's team? Yes, but that was always going to be the case anyway with the cap crunch. We aren't "entering a contender phase." We're entering a "make the playoffs and hopefully win a round or two" phase. The contender business (if we don't screw it up) starts when the flat cap dies. The goal should be to be good enough to make the playoffs while also finding out exactly where the team's holes are (and then filling those holes when cap space returns).
The problem is that the rangers can't do much of anything at 2c till the cap freeze ends. If it's not Chytil it's going to be another young center with a track record just like Chytil's or some cheap veteran stop gap. If Chytil can turn his season around after the break then he's this team's best chance at fielding a competitive roster with depth for next season and maybe the future as well. Any other option is going to see some ugly bottom six lines with no cap flexibility whatsoever. People are essentially hoping for some kind of miracle.
Barnaby
Registered User
I’ve decided that I can live with dealing a 1st plus for Pavelski with the intention of extending him for 2 years if it can be done. I also want to sign Kadri as a UFA and I’d let Strome walk and potentially trade a contract to do it. Move Chytil.
I think that firmly cements the new culture, makes this a win now team, and still has a lot of youth.
I think that firmly cements the new culture, makes this a win now team, and still has a lot of youth.
I suppose you agree it was better to protect Gauthier/Hajek and all they bring this team rather than placate Kravtsov, who could very well have provided the depth in scoring that we now desperately need.
smoneil
Registered User
Kadri's career production is all over the place, but because of where it is right now, some team is going to give him a blank check. He's currently 3rd in the NHL in scoring (tied with McDavid). You want to sign Kadri AND Pavelski--also a ppg+ player this season--to multi-year extensions. Both players are having excellent seasons, so there is no real reason for either of them to take a pay-cut. Pavelski currently makes $7m per year. Kadri makes $4.5m, but after this season is due a big raise. You would need to move out Strome, Chytil, AND probably both of Trouba and Kreider just to fit those cap numbers.
smoneil
Registered User
On the contrary. I reject the notion that Kravtsov was ever in competition with Gauthier or Hajek. He was in competition with Kakko, Goodrow, Blais, Kreider, Panarin, and Laf. All six of those wingers clearly out-performed Krav during pre-season.
Gauthier being kept was a clear sign that they don't see him as a long-term piece here. You don't keep a promising young player as the 13th forward. You send them down to get top line minutes in the AHL.
I do agree that you don't placate a primadonna, particularly when they haven't accomplished a damn thing, and they are being told to do something NHL players are told to do every year (including some of the guys who beat him for spots on this roster).
And if Kravtsov had acted like a professional, he would almost certainly BE on the team right now. The fact that he isn't is 100% on him and nobody else.
Barnaby
Registered User
Strome, Chytil, and Kreider should do it... unless Kadri is getting 8.5+ in which case I’d pass on him. Kreider would be a sell high situation where hopefully you can bring back a cost controlled top 6 winger.
Cheapshot
Registered User
- May 23, 2012
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Kravtsov chose to go to the k And request a trade instead of getting paid Pennie’s on the dollar to be in the A that was his choice. No one has to cater to him to come back. Trade him while you can because he’s not coming back. Not every pic works out. Good riddance.
smoneil
Registered User
Possible, but that value would also be counter-balanced by his NMC. If he even agrees to waive it, he could basically pick his team.
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