Speculation: Roster Building Thread - Part XXX

[McRanger92]

The Rangers cannot be moving out their kids for more 28 and 29 year olds who are expensive. It's suicide for the future of the organization and it's going all-in on the next 2-3 seasons, which is stupid, because this team doesn't really look like it's ready to win in that window.

If Chytil and Kravtsov go, it has to be part of a package for a YOUNG center.

Ok I’ll humor you. What hypothetical young center that checks all of your boxes is available?

 

[mas0764]

Ok I’ll humor you. What hypothetical young center that checks all of your boxes is available?

Even if there is none available right this second, you can't parlay your assets for expensive 29 year olds who aren't even true 1C types.

Keep your powder dry.

 

[duhmetreE]

Laffy Strome Gauthier
Kreider Zibs Kakko
Hunt Goodrow Chytil
Mckegg Rooney Reaves

 

[Clark Kellogg]

I'm "constantly," doing it because that's how you win Cups and compete for a long term and become a top team - by acquiring young, elite talent. I'm not interested in becoming a team that is just "good," again like the 2012-16 Rangers but doesn't win Cups. We saw that movie already, the ending sucked. For too many people on here, they are just in a hurry to taste the second round of the playoffs again and don't care if they actually win a championship. Getting a roster full of non-skilled 20 goal scorers that relies on it's goaltending to carry it is not going to win in this league in this era of the game.

I'm betting on guys who haven't proven it because those are the guys who have a chance to actually win a Cup for us someday. If I go bust, I'll roll the dice and pick high in the draft again. It's the only way. I'm not going to get there relying on a team of 30 year old Chris Kreiders.

A player like him IS a valuable part of a Cup run, but those types of players are too good to allow you to be bad (and draft the real elite talent in the top 5-10 of a draft), but not good enough to put you over the hump. He is a SUPPORT player ultimately, he's the kind of guy that is tearing it up on a third line for an elite team feasting on softer matchups. You can acquire a Kreider or a JG Pageau or another type of aging, 20 goal scorer at just about any trade deadline for a first and a half decent prospect, once you already have enough stars.

These things that people keep insisting we cling to - role players, grit and toughness, experience - are all things that are easy to get later.

We haven't done the thing we actually need to do yet - finish getting our elite young forward talent for the long term. Two isn't enough (and we don't even know if we have two yet). We remain in desperate need of another young center who can be a 1C someday. And in the absence of Chytil's development and Kravtsov being banished, we might need two other top forwards as well. We should have top 6 talent spilling over into our bottom 6 instead of the other way around, which, right now we have far too many bottom 6 players playing on our top lines, because - shocker - we poorly managed our assets by trading a top liner for a bottom liner (and a second round pick) and running off another potential top 6 player because our GM has an ego problem and doesn't know how to manage an immature kid properly.

So yes, Kreider is valuable, but he's not vital. And since we lack the vital pieces still, I really don't give a shit about what happens to Kreider. I'm not going to let secondary concerns get in the way of primary ones. I'll f***ing buy him out for nothing or pay a team a draft pick to take him, so I can have the cap space to go get another elite piece (like Eichel, if Buffalo would have traded him here, since we offered the best package). That's how little a secondary player should matter to you.

I'm sorry this always sounds so harsh towards Kreider but he's symbolic of what's wrong with the organization's approach. If he made $4m instead of $6.5 and was deployed on the third line while Lafreniere played ahead of him, like what should be happening for the good of the organization long term, I would hate it far less. Him being stapled into the top 6 when he would have been a good fit next to Chytil on the third line also took a skill-spot away that Kravtsov could have fit into, but roster construction be damned, Kreider "earned," his top spot, to our long term detriment.

Really the truth is he should have been traded for a first and Jason Robertson: we'd have a far younger, better, cheaper player at LW who could be another fixture for us, PLUS the extra first to acquire a young center. It's too late to go back and fix that mistake (though I will continue to argue against the idea that it was only bad to sign him 'in hindsight' - no, it was wrong even with the information we had at the time), but we don't need to keep compounding that error by doubling down on him being an integral part. He's not. Stop treating Chris Kreider like he's going to be one of our best 3 or 4 forwards on our next Cup winner. He won't be. It will never happen.

maso764’s post is worth the read.
For anyone who has been a Ranger fan for more than a decade all the things and more that was mentioned rings true.
It’s called growing pains and if you want the team to win cups there will be pain.
Just enjoy the excitement of watching young players develop and don’t be concerned with winning games at all cost.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

maso764’s post is worth the read.
For anyone who has been a Ranger fan for more than a decade all the things and more that was mentioned rings true.
It’s called growing pains and if you want the team to win cups there will be pain.
Just enjoy the excitement of watching young players develop and don’t be concerned with winning games at all cost.

True, getting rid of the team's best players or demoting them in favor of kids who have been underwhelming, at best, screams New York Rangers.

 

[huerter]

Never trade assets for a player that you'll be trying to replace.

 

[WojtekWolski86]

maso764’s post is worth the read.
For anyone who has been a Ranger fan for more than a decade all the things and more that was mentioned rings true.
It’s called growing pains and if you want the team to win cups there will be pain.
Just enjoy the excitement of watching young players develop and don’t be concerned with winning games at all cost.

All fine and dandy but it's not the reality we live in. Dolan has made it clear he doesn't want to rebuild anymore. So we can all be Bern and trade every 26+ yr old player for first round picks and prospects and hope they turn into the TBL or we wake up to reality.

Dolan isn't going to let Drury turn a team in 1st place in mid December into a lottery team for a potential cup 5 years from now. Not to mention every GM and owner looks at the Cinderella Habs last year as justification of "just make it to the dance" is an easier pill to swallow then rebuilding for years. At the end of the day owners want profits.

 

[mas0764]

All fine and dandy but it's not the reality we live in. Dolan has made it clear he doesn't want to rebuild anymore.

Well that's fine also but I'm not going to line up behind Dolan and tell him he's doing great. He's not.

So we can all be Bern and trade every 26+ yr old player for first round picks and prospects and hope they turn into the TBL or we wake up to reality.

I was hopeful that Drury was smart enough to walk a fine line of appeasing Dolan by getting into the playoffs - which would be hard to miss featuring a team of Panarin, Zibanejad, Fox and Shesterkin - while also managing the assets in a way to keep improving our future.

But this would have required the nuance of trading Buch for a young Center package (which was offered), would have required gently massaging Kravtsov a little, would have required telling Kreider he can keep his PP1 minutes but that he's gonna play the third line, etc.

Drury bought into the "win now with toughness," bit hook line and sinker. Or, he's just being a puppet for Dolan/Sather. Either way it's bad.

The team didn't have to tank, but it has made some really bad personnel moves that are designed to accomplish nothing more than winning a playoff round this season at the expense of winning more in the future. Which is a terrible objective, because winning it all someday should always be the primary objective.

These things wouldn't be "playing Bernmeister." But it does have to stop doubling down on the present. Nothing unrealistic about that. The problem is apparently the team thinks it's good enough to win the Cup this year or next. It's not.

Dolan isn't going to let Drury turn a team in 1st place in mid December into a lottery team for a potential cup 5 years from now.

No one is advocating for moves that would have turned us into a lottery team. I mean, look no further than this tidbit: Blais was completely unnecessary for what we are doing.

Evidence: He's not actually here. He's on IR.

Conclusion: Buch for Blais was pointless. We didn't need that bit of grit that Blais brings to go 19-10-3. What we needed was a f***ing young center and another first round pick.

Might be time to learn a little something from that error.

Maybe clinging to Strome for dear life at the deadline isn't a great idea either if the org determines it wants to move on come this summer.

Of course this dumb org is gonna re-sign Strome and lock us in to a roster that can't win for forever.

 

[bbny]

Laf - Strome - Kakko

Let’s see if Strome is capable of elevating other talent besides Panarin.

 

[mas0764]

All kinds of different types of teams have won Stanley Cups, with strengths and weaknesses in different areas. There isn't a magic formula, it's all probabilistic.

People keep saying this, but it's not really true.

There is a pretty standard template. Of course with deviation, but you need to have most of the check boxes checked.

We lack a couple in the forward column still.

 

[mas0764]

Laf - Strome - Kakko

Let’s see if Strome is capable of elevating other talent besides Panarin.

If he could, it might be the nudge that would push him into the "worth re-signing," camp.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

So Chychrun is available in Arizona.

Not really a "need" here but hed be an excellent long term partner for Fox.

 

[DanielBrassard]

I'd be interested in Chychrun if he could be a Trouba replacement of sorts. Would save quite a bit on the cap while getting a better player on the 2nd pairing. But that probably won't happen and again I think if the Rangers are going to use assets for a player it needs to be a forward.

 

[Off Sides]

Maybe some fun with probability and chance

4 coin flips, 50/50, the chance of getting 4 heads in a row is 6.25%

No matter what the Rangers do this season, are they really going to be at 50/50 to win 4 straight playoff series to even have a 6.25% chance to win the Cup?

Even say they win their first round, if they were 50/50 to win the next 3 it is a 12.5% chance, are they really going to be 50/50 in rounds 2 through 4?

I believe that is why Cinderella runs end, yet also the reason the top odds on team does not always win, cause variance is a thing, yet it tends to even out over the whole 4 rounds.

The best idea in my opinion if they want a Cup is to build a team that is at least 50/50 against any team in the league in a playoff series, then improve on it, then eventually if they can maintain it long enough, years, they might actually win a Cup or a couple.

I guess in other words, unless they really believe this team has a 50/50 chance of beating (insert at least two, if not three, really good teams here) in a series they are better off building for the future rather than using assets to try to enhance this roster.

 

[Edge]

So Chychrun is available in Arizona.

Not really a "need" here but hed be an excellent long term partner for Fox.

Chychrun was/is definitely one of the situations the Rangers have been monitoring for a little while.

A match with Arizona is challenging, and costly, but not impossible either.

I'd be interested in Chychrun if he could be a Trouba replacement of sorts. Would save quite a bit on the cap while getting a better player on the 2nd pairing. But that probably won't happen and again I think if the Rangers are going to use assets for a player it needs to be a forward.

This isn't the answer people want to hear, but salary wise you'd probably be looking at Lindgren going elsewhere as opposed to Trouba, and (as previously discussed) Kreider's contract being one that becomes a more frequent (and louder) topic of discussion in the summer.

 

[mas0764]

I'd be interested in Chychrun if he could be a Trouba replacement of sorts. Would save quite a bit on the cap while getting a better player on the 2nd pairing. But that probably won't happen and again I think if the Rangers are going to use assets for a player it needs to be a forward.

He's an interesting piece but I cannot possibly advocate for giving up the pieces they'd surely want for him. We can't be using our biggest assets to get a 1LD when we already have a Norris-winning 1RD and then the expenditure of those assets would leave us shorthanded for pursuing a 1C or 2RW or something. It depends on what the price is, but I'd have to imagine someone else can put together like a first and a Chytil/Kravtsov equivalent, and I'm just not gonna be willing to offer that much when our defense is already fully stocked to the point where we can't keep them all.

 

[DanielBrassard]

Chychrun was/is definitely one of the situations the Rangers have been monitoring for a little while.

A match with Arizona is challenging, and costly, but not impossible either.



This isn't the answer people want to hear, but salary wise you'd probably be looking at Lindgren going elsewhere as opposed to Trouba, and (as previously discussed) Kreider's contract being one that becomes a more frequent (and louder) topic of discussion in the summer.

I wouldn't mind that either honestly. I like Lindgren but if you can replace him with Chychrun that would be a pretty big upgrade. Offensively it would be a sizable difference. Wouldn't be the highest priority on my list of needs/upgrades though.

 

[mas0764]

Chychrun was/is definitely one of the situations the Rangers have been monitoring for a little while.

A match with Arizona is challenging, and costly, but not impossible either.

This isn't the answer people want to hear, but salary wise you'd probably be looking at Lindgren going elsewhere as opposed to Trouba, and (as previously discussed) Kreider's contract being one that becomes a more frequent (and louder) topic of discussion in the summer.

My question would be, if you are moving out Lindgren and Kreider to free up cap space for Chychrun, what pieces are you using to fill the top 6? It seems like salary overkill on defense. 9.5 + 8 + 4.6 plus big extensions looming for Miller and Lundkvist.

I know I'm beating this dead horse but I just don't see the long term marriage with Trouba. Would be way more cost effective to have the assuredly much cheaper Lindgren here at $3m than Trouba's $8m.

 

[Edge]

My question would be, if you are moving out Lindgren and Kreider to free up cap space for Chychrun, what pieces are you using to fill the top 6? It seems like salary overkill on defense. 9.5 + 8 + 4.6 plus big extensions looming for Miller and Lundkvist.

I know I'm beating this dead horse but I just don't see the long term marriage with Trouba. Would be way more cost effective to have the assuredly much cheaper Lindgren here at $3m than Trouba's $8m.

I personally don't think the marriage to Trouba will be long-term. It's just not the frontrunner to be the first move they make at this time.

 

[mas0764]

So maybe ultimately Lindgren and Trouba out, just after a longer while.

But the issue is keeping guys like Jones, Schneider, Robertson, etc, in reserve until you are ready to move out Trouba, et al. I guess I could be wrong but I would have thought those guys are coming up sooner rather than later.

 

[Fitzy]

Lindgren is on a good contract in a good role. He's barely making more than Nemeth.

If he's moved for a big return that's one thing, but he shouldn't be viewed as a cap dump or a piece of replaceable salary. He's a bargain. You earn those bargains by developing good RFA age players.

As for Kreider you'd better start getting Morgan Barron working on his tips and deflections because otherwise the NYR powerplay is gonna go from top 10 in the league to in the bottom 10.

 

[MrAlmost]

Trade Panarin. Money issues solved.

 

[Clark Kellogg]

True, getting rid of the team's best players or demoting them in favor of kids who have been underwhelming, at best, screams New York Rangers.

We have different time lines I’m guessing.
I have enjoyed Libor Hajek game after not playing for so long. I think he did well. Showed a net front presence. Didn’t have that last year.
I’ve enjoyed watching Georgiev regaining his confidence.
If some of the prospects don’t make it. Oh well. How will we know if they never get a shot with McKegg, Blais, Hunt, Nemeth ahead of them on the depth chart.
Of course we should have kept Buchnevich or at lease until the tdl.
He’s exactly prof of developing you prospects.
Kreider , we could have had our cake and eat it too. Traded him to Dallas at the deadline and then still resign him. He was a UFA. Keeping him, Fast and DeAngelo and receiving nothing in return. Hard Pass.
It’s a marathon not a sprint.
I’m guessing you were being sarcastic.
If not apologies and disregard.

 

[duhmetreE]

Chychrun was/is definitely one of the situations the Rangers have been monitoring for a little while.

A match with Arizona is challenging, and costly, but not impossible either.



This isn't the answer people want to hear, but salary wise you'd probably be looking at Lindgren going elsewhere as opposed to Trouba, and (as previously discussed) Kreider's contract being one that becomes a more frequent (and louder) topic of discussion in the summer.

I'm all for turning prospects ( Lundkvist, Jones, Kravtsov etc) into Chychrun. Is Chytil and Lundkvist fair? Close enough on salary. Call up Barron.

Turning Lindgren+ into a center. A team like the Kings need a LHD no? Lindgren for Turcotte

Eventually, Laffy takes over for Kreider and have Cuylle or Othmann as the 3LW. 1-2 years?

Schneider takes over for Trouba in 2-3 years.

Trouba and Kreider help replenish the cupboard... the cycle continues

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

We have different time lines I’m guessing.
I have enjoyed Libor Hajek game after not playing for so long. I think he did well. Showed a net front presence. Didn’t have that last year.
I’ve enjoyed watching Georgiev regaining his confidence.
If some of the prospects don’t make it. Oh well. How will we know if they never get a shot with McKegg, Blais, Hunt, Nemeth ahead of them on the depth chart.
Of course we should have kept Buchnevich or at lease until the tdl.
He’s exactly prof of developing you prospects.
Kreider , we could have had our cake and eat it too. Traded him to Dallas at the deadline and then still resign him. He was a UFA. Keeping him, Fast and DeAngelo and receiving nothing in return. Hard Pass.
It’s a marathon not a sprint.
I’m guessing you were being sarcastic.
If not apologies and disregard.

It's not a matter of different timelines so much as it's about being realistic with how this team came to be (it's weird that their first and second overall picks happened to be wings instead of centers). You can't keep endlessly building in search of the perfect lineup. Right now, the team's best players are the older guys (a shocking concept to most here), they're winning games and pushing for the playoffs. There's no need to rid themselves of players like Trouba and Kreider this year or the next. What message does that send to the other players? "Sorry boys, you're two of our best performing players but you're just too goddam old."

Their replacements are in the organization, when they get here then we can revisit trades, buyouts, whatever. In the meantime, it's on the young guys here to push the veterans down in the lineup. Not have shit handed to them. So far the only forward that has is Kakko. I'm sure Laff will too at some point and when he does, Gallant will figure out how to get him the appropriate ice time. In the meantime, let's enjoy the team's success without letting things like how much a player make get in the way. I'm delighted we'll probably have meaningful games in March and April. Delighted that the older guys are leading the way and earning their checks. If others aren't, whatever.