Speculation: Roster Building Thread - Part XXII

[Barnaby]

It Arizona moves I hope they don’t take the Coyotes moniker.

What? Quebec Coyotes doesn't make sense?

 

[EdJovanovski]

So on a slightly derivative note, if the NHL goes to the Olympics in February, what Rangers do we think will be part of the national teams?

Fox, Zibby, Shesterkin seem the most obvious selections.

Panarin will play
Kakko should make it in the bottom 6, and that's even if he doesn't take a huge step this year

 

[Barnaby]

We sure it's a foregone conclusion CK is going to start on the 3rd line anyway?

He may not start there, but smart money says he ends up there by mid-season.

 

[Barnaby]

The kid line was awful when they were together

Yea, I see absolutely no reason not to divide up the kids and vets. It's not like they had some unreal chemistry. I don't think the idea of adding grit and being tougher to play against involved putting 3 20 year olds from 3 different countries back on a line together.

 

[Barnaby]

20/21/19

The ages of the kid line.

Don't think it's time to cast judgements just yet.

On the kids themselves? Of course not. They should all have fruitful careers. As a line together? Yea, I don't get it why you don't divide them up.

If nothing else, Chytil is obviously your 3C at the moment and it's very likely Lafreniere is going to be thrust into a bigger role and Kakko may be as well.

 

[Rongomania]

On the kids themselves? Of course not. They should all have fruitful careers. As a line together? Yea, I don't get it why you don't divide them up.

If nothing else, Chytil is obviously your 3C at the moment and it's very likely Lafreniere is going to be thrust into a bigger role and Kakko may be as well.

I mean we have the luxuries of Krav & Bread, but this is true, the Buch move more than likely killed that line forever.

I was just kind of salivating at what they may look like together again, one year older and under a better coach.

 

[Barnaby]

I mean we have the luxuries of Krav & Bread, but this is true, the Buch move more than likely killed that line forever.

I was just kind of salivating at what they may look like together again, one year older and under a better coach.

A new coach... I think one of the problems with Quinn was his deployment of personnel.

 

[EdJovanovski]

What? Quebec Coyotes doesn't make sense?

Don't they have coyotes? we have TONS of them here in BC. They're literally running around in the field next to my house every day

 

[brakeyawself]

What? Quebec Coyotes doesn't make sense?

There's no place that deserves a team more than Quebec City. They even built a new stadium, the Videotron Centre, in 2015, which is very nice. It's such a beautiful and amazing city. The people there love their hockey. Part of the problem though are the economics. Quebec City doesn't have the largest population and doesn't have the most jobs or highest salaries, which means a lot of people wouldn't be able to afford to go to games often. But they would be expecting the outlying areas to travel a bit into the City for games. Lol. Those roads up there are hell in the winter though. Last time I was there, around New Years, got stuck with a snow storm, had to stay an extra 3 or 4 days, which I wasn't complaining about.

If anyone likes to travel though and has not been to Montreal and Quebec City, I would strongly suggest visiting both. The best time to go are from the "opening of the terraces" which occurs when Spring arrives and all the restaurants open their outdoor dining. They usually have a huge street party/fair in both Montreal and Quebec that entire week. Well, from the "opening of the terraces" through New Years really. Christmas there is absolutely perfect. Any time in between it's an amazing vacation spot. Quebec actually has some decent nightlife, ok clubs. lol. The old part of the city feels completely European and is worth staying in. But make sure to venture out into the rest of the city. Especially the markets. The New Grand Market is great all year long and around Christmas ,the Marche de Noel is terrific. Some really terrific little restaurants too. Laval University has a nice little bar/club also if you are younger.

Anyway, they need their team back! You can still buy Nordiques apparel all over the city and you regularly see people dawning hats and sweaters.

I would say Hartford Connecticut should get a team back too, but at this point, I think most people in CT are either Rangers or Bruins fans.

 

[Barnaby]

Don't they have coyotes? we have TONS of them here in BC. They're literally running around in the field next to my house every day

Damned if I know, but they aren’t exactly synonymous with Quebec

 

[brakeyawself]

Damned if I know, but they aren’t exactly synonymous with Quebec

Lol. I think Moose, Beavers, Otter, Fox or Wolves would be better represented by Quebec. lol, or Cows. The best name might be the Quebec City (Old) Cannons or Cannonballs really. They love their old cannons, they're everywhere. Or The Quebec Ice Roads haha. But really, if any team did move there, their name would instantly become "The Nordiques". I don't think the people there would have it any other way. You can still buy Nordiques gear everywhere there.

 

[redwhiteandblue]

I mean, perhaps there is some legal maneuvering if someone owns the rights, but would they really ever go with anything other than Nordiques?

Edit: Wait- I'm an idiot.... Avs franchise owns it all.

 

[brakeyawself]

I mean, perhaps there is some legal maneuvering if someone owns the rights, but would they really ever go with anything other than Nordiques?

Edit: Wait- I'm an idiot.... Avs franchise owns it all.

Im not sure they own the name. The NHL does or has some rights. But they still make and sell plenty of Nordiques gear, so I am not sure how that works. I think they dealt with a similar thing when the Browns moved from Cleveland to Baltimore and became the Ravens. The AVS must have rights to the history of the Nordiques, but I am not sure that's the same as the naming rights.

This is what comes up when you google it.
"President Marcel Aubut
In 1977 the Carling O'Keefe Brewery became full owners for approximately $2 million. Under the leadership of President Marcel Aubut, the Nordiques were part of the WHA-NHL merger of 1979.May 8, 2012"

------------------ Then they eventually sold to COMSAt. But I think when they moved, the name rights might have reverted back to the old shareholders. Hard to find out actually.

Twenty years later, former Nordiques owner Aubut mulls NHL's possible return to Quebec | Montreal Gazette

Why the NHL didn’t accept Quebec City’s expansion bid

 

[redwhiteandblue]

Im not sure they own the name. The NHL does or has some rights. But they still make and sell plenty of Nordiques gear, so I am not sure how that works. I think they dealt with a similar thing when the Browns moved from Cleveland to Baltimore and became the Ravens. The AVS must have rights to the history of the Nordiques, but I am not sure that's the same as the naming rights.

This is what comes up when you google it.
"President Marcel Aubut
In 1977 the Carling O'Keefe Brewery became full owners for approximately $2 million. Under the leadership of President Marcel Aubut, the Nordiques were part of the WHA-NHL merger of 1979.May 8, 2012"

------------------ Then they eventually sold to COMSAt. But I think when they moved, the name rights might have reverted back to the old shareholders. Hard to find out actually.

Twenty years later, former Nordiques owner Aubut mulls NHL's possible return to Quebec | Montreal Gazette

Hmm, so a pretty simple case of wtf eh? I have a feeling the NHL would be in favor of returning the Nordiques.

 

[Barnaby]

Hmm, so a pretty simple case of wtf eh? I have a feeling the NHL would be in favor of returning the Nordiques.

I could see Bettman having an issue returning a team to a failed location. For whatever reason it failed. I know they did it with WPG so I’m not saying it’s impossible but he seems like a guy to hold a grudge.

It would be fun to see though.

 

[Taluss]

There's no place that deserves a team more than Quebec City. They even built a new stadium, the Videotron Centre, in 2015, which is very nice. It's such a beautiful and amazing city. The people there love their hockey. Part of the problem though are the economics. Quebec City doesn't have the largest population and doesn't have the most jobs or highest salaries, which means a lot of people wouldn't be able to afford to go to games often. But they would be expecting the outlying areas to travel a bit into the City for games. Lol. Those roads up there are hell in the winter though. Last time I was there, around New Years, got stuck with a snow storm, had to stay an extra 3 or 4 days, which I wasn't complaining about.

If anyone likes to travel though and has not been to Montreal and Quebec City, I would strongly suggest visiting both. The best time to go are from the "opening of the terraces" which occurs when Spring arrives and all the restaurants open their outdoor dining. They usually have a huge street party/fair in both Montreal and Quebec that entire week. Well, from the "opening of the terraces" through New Years really. Christmas there is absolutely perfect. Any time in between it's an amazing vacation spot. Quebec actually has some decent nightlife, ok clubs. lol. The old part of the city feels completely European and is worth staying in. But make sure to venture out into the rest of the city. Especially the markets. The New Grand Market is great all year long and around Christmas ,the Marche de Noel is terrific. Some really terrific little restaurants too. Laval University has a nice little bar/club also if you are younger.

Anyway, they need their team back! You can still buy Nordiques apparel all over the city and you regularly see people dawning hats and sweaters.

I would say Hartford Connecticut should get a team back too, but at this point, I think most people in CT are either Rangers or Bruins fans.

This is a great post and very accurate.

 

[brakeyawself]

Hmm, so a pretty simple case of wtf eh? I have a feeling the NHL would be in favor of returning the Nordiques.

From everything I've read, the branding still belongs to Quebec or someone in Quebec lol. But can't find the specifics for some reason. So yea. It's clear that when they registered their bids for a new team with the NHL, who gave it to Vegas and then Seattle, they were registering for a return of the Nordiques though.

This article is pretty good.

Why the NHL didn’t accept Quebec City’s expansion bid

The Ramparts have some of the highest attendance outside of the NHL teams and when I went to one of their games, the place was completely full and rockin. So I have no doubt the fans are there. I was actually there in 2016 so the return was way more optimistic and a big deal at that point before the NHL shot them down. It's pretty mysterious actually. I don't particularly understand it, especially when numerous NHL teams are currently only surviving because of revenue sharing.

Like seriously, the Coyotes? They couldn't even find a home in Phoenix, then Glendale, now I think they want to move to Tempe or wherever. It took the NHL a long time to establish themselves in Florida, but that worked in part because of how populated Florida is. Vegas is a different kind of city with tons of outsiders in and out every day, which probably helps. Seattle certainly a more viable hockey market, but I have to imagine the Kraken are going to take away a decent amount of money from the Canucks, which sucks for the Canucks.

But of all the current teams, I was surprised by CBJ, Nashville, Carolina and Arizona. It seems to have caught on in Nashville and Carolina. Meanwhile, Minny, who by all accounts is a great hockey market, struggles with their teams. All these years later and I am still shocked the Northstars ended up in Dallas.

The Islanders are perennially NY's most forgotten team, even when they go deep in the playoffs two years in a row. So I think if any team did move, at this point, it would be Arizona or the Isles. The Isles have so much history and NY potential though, that I am not sure they would actually move them. It's crazy how the Isles have bounced around to Brooklyn and back to Long Island. The Devils are really the 2nd team in the NYC area though. I don't even think it's close. Obviously the Rangers are far and away number 1.

Should be interesting though. I just don't see Arizona being NHL viable if they can't even keep a team in one location for more than 10 years. They'd have to be the favorite to move. But outside of a team moving, expansion the only other option and I think the NHL is just too greedy to do the right thing in that situation. They prefer Kansas City to Quebec, even though St. Louis probably covers the NHL fanbase of that entire region. Still makes little sense to me.

 

[UAGoalieGuy]

When the original Jets moved to Phoenix they didn't retain the name rights as the Thrashers became the Jets.

 

[nsvoyageurs]

From everything I've read, the branding still belongs to Quebec or someone in Quebec lol. But can't find the specifics for some reason. So yea. It's clear that when they registered their bids for a new team with the NHL, who gave it to Vegas and then Seattle, they were registering for a return of the Nordiques though.

This article is pretty good.

Why the NHL didn’t accept Quebec City’s expansion bid

The Ramparts have some of the highest attendance outside of the NHL teams and when I went to one of their games, the place was completely full and rockin. So I have no doubt the fans are there. I was actually there in 2016 so the return was way more optimistic and a big deal at that point before the NHL shot them down. It's pretty mysterious actually. I don't particularly understand it, especially when numerous NHL teams are currently only surviving because of revenue sharing.

Like seriously, the Coyotes? They couldn't even find a home in Phoenix, then Glendale, now I think they want to move to Tempe or wherever. It took the NHL a long time to establish themselves in Florida, but that worked in part because of how populated Florida is. Vegas is a different kind of city with tons of outsiders in and out every day, which probably helps. Seattle certainly a more viable hockey market, but I have to imagine the Kraken are going to take away a decent amount of money from the Canucks, which sucks for the Canucks.

But of all the current teams, I was surprised by CBJ, Nashville, Carolina and Arizona. It seems to have caught on in Nashville and Carolina. Meanwhile, Minny, who by all accounts is a great hockey market, struggles with their teams. All these years later and I am still shocked the Northstars ended up in Dallas.

The Islanders are perennially NY's most forgotten team, even when they go deep in the playoffs two years in a row. So I think if any team did move, at this point, it would be Arizona or the Isles. The Isles have so much history and NY potential though, that I am not sure they would actually move them. It's crazy how the Isles have bounced around to Brooklyn and back to Long Island. The Devils are really the 2nd team in the NYC area though. I don't even think it's close. Obviously the Rangers are far and away number 1.

Should be interesting though. I just don't see Arizona being NHL viable if they can't even keep a team in one location for more than 10 years. They'd have to be the favorite to move. But outside of a team moving, expansion the only other option and I think the NHL is just too greedy to do the right thing in that situation. They prefer Kansas City to Quebec, even though St. Louis probably covers the NHL fanbase of that entire region. Still makes little sense to me.

The Islanders are putting the finishing touches on their new arena, so they aren't going anywhere.

The NHL would put a team back in Hartford before they would put one back in Quebec City.

 

[brakeyawself]

I could see Bettman having an issue returning a team to a failed location. For whatever reason it failed. I know they did it with WPG so I’m not saying it’s impossible but he seems like a guy to hold a grudge.

It would be fun to see though.

They were hemorrhaging money for some reason. A lot of people thought it was the ownership and the product on the ice. This was at a very different time though when the difference between the US markets and Canadian markets were far more disparate than I think they are now. The internet has helped become a location equalizer in a lot of ways. Where as people used to move to certain city centers more regularly, they don't have to do that quite as much. So I actually think the economics of it would be way more equitable in 2021 than in the 1990's when they moved. And Denver really was a evolving and growing market that did deserve a team. Just not Quebec's team lol. At this point, especially with Vegas and now Seattle, the best markets are really all filled up. So it's the secondary markets that will have to compete with other locations. I just can't see Arizona being more profitable than Quebec. You just have to look at Rampart attendance and revenue to see how successful hockey in general is in Quebec. A QHML or Jr. team in general would never generate the fanbase or revenue they generate in Quebec. But there is clearly still an American bias as far as the NHL is concerned in terms of market value. And I think that goes for players as well. While the tax situation in the US isn't great, it's definitely superior than in Canada. And that goes for income tax in terms of players too. Some locations like Florida and Texas even have an advantage in that regard over many other US locations. Which I think is part of the reason hockey has done reasonably well in Florida and Texas but not necessarily Arizona. Even though the Panthers can't seem to raise their value like Tampa has.

New York Rangers are still the highest value club in the league with the Leafs in 2nd place. Which makes sense. Lol. This is just hysterical when I think of this guy that was posting a few weeks ago about how Matthews would have better and more financial opportunity, more "intangibles" if he went to play for the Coyotes rather than staying in Toronto or going to the Rangers. That dude was out of his mind lol.

Buffalo unfortunately is pretty low on the list. All though I think they have enough history and a strong enough fanbase to stave off relocation. But Arizona, Florida Panthers and CBJ, I think are still not 100% settled. If they can't raise their value I could see any one of those three moving honestly.

The Business Of Hockey

 

[redwhiteandblue]

I could see Bettman having an issue returning a team to a failed location. For whatever reason it failed. I know they did it with WPG so I’m not saying it’s impossible but he seems like a guy to hold a grudge.

It would be fun to see though.

Yeah, I wasn't referencing a move to Quebec as much as I was a hypothetical situation where if Quebec was awarded a new team, I don't see the league opposing a return of the 'Nordiques' moniker. I'm sure they would welcome that if there was a move back to QC.

From everything I've read, the branding still belongs to Quebec or someone in Quebec lol. But can't find the specifics for some reason. So yea. It's clear that when they registered their bids for a new team with the NHL, who gave it to Vegas and then Seattle, they were registering for a return of the Nordiques though.

This article is pretty good.

Why the NHL didn’t accept Quebec City’s expansion bid

The Ramparts have some of the highest attendance outside of the NHL teams and when I went to one of their games, the place was completely full and rockin. So I have no doubt the fans are there. I was actually there in 2016 so the return was way more optimistic and a big deal at that point before the NHL shot them down. It's pretty mysterious actually. I don't particularly understand it, especially when numerous NHL teams are currently only surviving because of revenue sharing.

Like seriously, the Coyotes? They couldn't even find a home in Phoenix, then Glendale, now I think they want to move to Tempe or wherever. It took the NHL a long time to establish themselves in Florida, but that worked in part because of how populated Florida is. Vegas is a different kind of city with tons of outsiders in and out every day, which probably helps. Seattle certainly a more viable hockey market, but I have to imagine the Kraken are going to take away a decent amount of money from the Canucks, which sucks for the Canucks.

But of all the current teams, I was surprised by CBJ, Nashville, Carolina and Arizona. It seems to have caught on in Nashville and Carolina. Meanwhile, Minny, who by all accounts is a great hockey market, struggles with their teams. All these years later and I am still shocked the Northstars ended up in Dallas.

The Islanders are perennially NY's most forgotten team, even when they go deep in the playoffs two years in a row. So I think if any team did move, at this point, it would be Arizona or the Isles. The Isles have so much history and NY potential though, that I am not sure they would actually move them. It's crazy how the Isles have bounced around to Brooklyn and back to Long Island. The Devils are really the 2nd team in the NYC area though. I don't even think it's close. Obviously the Rangers are far and away number 1.

Should be interesting though. I just don't see Arizona being NHL viable if they can't even keep a team in one location for more than 10 years. They'd have to be the favorite to move. But outside of a team moving, expansion the only other option and I think the NHL is just too greedy to do the right thing in that situation. They prefer Kansas City to Quebec, even though St. Louis probably covers the NHL fanbase of that entire region. Still makes little sense to me.

Meh, not sure it's mysterious but I hear what you mean haha. Bettman straight up wants to compete with the other big 3 and really surpass the NBA. That would require a large American fan base. The Coyotes thing is disappointing because it is a great market, but man at this point we're looking at square peg-round hole. Time to move on. Don't see a chance they are moving the franchise far, as everyone has stated, Houston is pretty obvious.

Vegas and Tampa don't surprise me they caught on, and honestly I really hope they can get something really solid going for the Florida franchise and keep a fan base. I just don't think sports is meant to be a die-hard, all-year-round thing in Miami. I think Seattle will take fire, and even though I'm not sure about their roster right now, they won't struggle finding fans.

Columbus seems to be an uphill battle to build a good roster, but I don't recall hearing attendance issues there. I'd love to catch a game in Nashville, the fans are a part of that. It seems to have developed into a good hockey city. Carolina has some die hard fans, sucks the Owner is cheap af. Does Minny really struggle that bad though?

I can't see the Islanders possibly going anywhere with the new arena, Barclays was a disaster but it saved the team from leaving completely. These stadium deals are completely f***ed at the end of the day though, I'd hate to be a citizen of Miami paying for that stupid ballpark.

 

[brakeyawself]

The Islanders are putting the finishing touches on their new arena, so they aren't going anywhere.

The NHL would put a team back in Hartford before they would put one back in Quebec City.

You are right about the Islanders. But I am not sure you are correct about Hartford vs Quebec. I don't think you are accounting for the popularity of that team and hockey in general in Quebec. It's also a growing population, especially if climate change continues as it's going lol. But ultimately, there will always be strong social pressure to bring a team back to Quebec, far more so than Hartford. And that alone gives Quebec a greater chance.

The way Arizona, CBJ, and Florida can't seem to build their brand or their revenue, really makes those three locations the prime targets for relocation. And I don't think that changes unless they actually do start rising in value, which Florida and Arizona have not in many years now. CBJ, just because it's a more recent location, I think is less likely to be moved. But you never know.

And I think most hockey fans would agree that a team in Quebec makes more sense than a team in Arizona. I don't care how populated Phoenix is, they don't even want the team in that city. And it's not like the rest of Arizona can touch Phoenix in terms of market value. Frankly, I am not sure why that team hasn't been registered to move somewhere all ready. No guarantee it would be Quebex, but they are definitely in the top 5 of plausible locations and they likely always will be until they get a team back. The Ramparts have some of the highest attendance and revenue outside of the NHL and they actually have higher attendance than some NHL teams on a night to night basis. Whatever is preventing a team from returning there is not going to remain forever.

 

[brakeyawself]

Yeah, I wasn't referencing a move to Quebec as much as I was a hypothetical situation where if Quebec was awarded a new team, I don't see the league opposing a return of the 'Nordiques' moniker. I'm sure they would welcome that if there was a move back to QC.


Meh, not sure it's mysterious but I hear what you mean haha. Bettman straight up wants to compete with the other big 3 and really surpass the NBA. That would require a large American fan base. The Coyotes thing is disappointing because it is a great market, but man at this point we're looking at square peg-round hole. Time to move on. Don't see a chance they are moving the franchise far, as everyone has stated, Houston is pretty obvious.

Vegas and Tampa don't surprise me they caught on, and honestly I really hope they can get something really solid going for the Florida franchise and keep a fan base. I just don't think sports is meant to be a die-hard, all-year-round thing in Miami. I think Seattle will take fire, and even though I'm not sure about their roster right now, they won't struggle finding fans.

Columbus seems to be an uphill battle to build a good roster, but I don't recall hearing attendance issues there. I'd love to catch a game in Nashville, the fans are a part of that. It seems to have developed into a good hockey city. Carolina has some die hard fans, sucks the Owner is cheap af. Does Minny really struggle that bad though?

I can't see the Islanders possibly going anywhere with the new arena, Barclays was a disaster but it saved the team from leaving completely. These stadium deals are completely f***ed at the end of the day though, I'd hate to be a citizen of Miami paying for that stupid ballpark.

You are probably right about the Isles lol. And Columbus for now at least.

And, I think Minny's problems, at least right now, have more to do with current ownership and the way they've built that team than anything. They still are a more valuable franchise than like Buffalo, Panthers, Yotes, CBJ and even the Lightning and Avs, so I don't think it's Minnesota that is the problem itself. This still shocks me when I think of why the Northstars left for Dallas.

I agree about Seattle. I think the team will succeed there.

As far as Bettman and the NHL, I understand that any commercial enterprise these days has to show continuous growth and has to compete. But I think to some extent, they go about this the wrong way sometimes. Like we can obviously see, just because Florida and Arizona have huge populations and are relatively big markets, doesn't mean something like hockey will be successful there. And that definitely goes for Miami way way more than Tampa. But I truly don't think the NHL will ever surpass the other 3. Even as poor as the NBA has done recently, and how the MLB has declined significantly, I just doubt hockey can catch them. Actually, I think before the NHL could catch the NBA, NFL and MLB, they will actually be surpassed by MLS lol. Soccer grows in popularity by leaps and bounds in North America every year and if the rest of the world is anything to go by, eventually, maybe 5o years, maybe a bit more, we will see the MLS actually surpassing either the NBA, MLB or possibly both. Well, maybe not surpassing them, but getting closer. And I think there is every possibility soccer surpasses hockey at least. Hockey is very expensive to play. And you need access to the Ice which is expensive. So I think that will always be something that holds it back more than the other sports.

What I would personally be looking for, obviously growth, but also stability. I think a lot of business are finding stability preferable to chronic peaks and valleys. And the NHL and other sports, might have to eventually balance that stability with growth. I am actually curious if there has been any economic model comparing how a team would have theoretically worked in Quebec all these missing years, rather than bouncing around Arizona.

But you are right that the NHL might just refuse to give up on Arizona because of the population size. Which to me, is a bit stupid on their part if it keeps proving to be their worst market and perennial bottom value team. But hey, I am not the biggest fan of Bettman either. So maybe a wiser and more cunning man will take over for Bettman eventually and there will be some radical and hockey-centric changes.

 

[JohnC]

Coyotes aren’t going anywhere as long as Bettman is commissioner IMO. Guy has fought tooth and nail for that franchise every step of the way and I don’t see why it would change now. They’ll work some sort of agreement out with the GRA.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

What? Quebec Coyotes doesn't make sense?

They made Calgary Flames work...