Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XVIII

[Avery16]

The Staal trade was a good trade for the Rangers. Their coach was just bad.

Both can be true. I definitely agree that Staal (or most anyone else) won't demonstrate their peak value in a short amount of time, but the deal was bad (two 2nds and a 3rd) if there wasn't a good plan to retain him. This is like that horrible deal for a few months of Jari Kurri.

EDIT: wrong coach

 

[Off Sides]

I think the Staal trade was bad, mostly because I do not believe he needed energized, I believe he was still not fully recovered from a couple past injuries and the Rangers already had centers at the time, and the roster as a whole was not good enough to try to rent to improve.

 

[True Blue]

Kreider has a higher offensive capability than Hayes. We still may yet see Kreiders most effective season, while it looks like Hayes might not be able to crack 50 points in any season. That’s a significant limitation.

Have you seen the amount of points that Hayes is on pace for this year?

As a decent 2C, Hayes stands to make more money on this next contract than does Kreider.

Again, let's be honest here. What Hayes has been for at least a year now is more than "decent". He has been an elite two-way, 2nd line center. Krieder, is very much a legit top line LW. No doubt about it. But let's not minimize that Hayes has done.

 

[True Blue]

I think the Staal trade was bad, mostly because I do not believe he needed energized, I believe he was still not fully recovered from a couple past injuries and the Rangers already had centers at the time, and the roster as a whole was not good enough to try to rent to improve.

Hated the Stall trade. No way was his level of play worth 2 second rounders. And also hated that Yandle was never traded. Though I hated the Yandle trade as well.

 

[Avery16]

Have you seen the amount of points that Hayes is on pace for this year?

Again, let's be honest here. What Hayes has been for at least a year now is more than "decent". He has been an elite two-way, 2nd line center. Krieder, is very much a legit top line LW. No doubt about it. But let's not minimize that Hayes has done.

As for a points total, lets see what happens.

I would be willing to agree that Hayes is an elite two-way C, but I don't think that alone makes up for his offensive numbers, which are lower than what a so-called "elite 2C" should produce Stepan was probably an elite 2C. Some people here that Zibanjead is an elite 2C. Hayes is a great C, does things that all those other Cs cant do, but doesn't put up enough points to be considered an elite 2C.

 

[SA16]

The Rangers were in 2nd in the division and 4th in the conference prior to the 15-16 deadline. Yandle was absolutely never getting traded.

 

[RangerBoy]

The compliance buyouts were needed the last two times. The cap was implemented in the 2005 CBA and the players % dropped from 57% to 50% in 2013. This time around the NHL is not looking for substantial give backs. Big difference. The players are ones who are more likely to opt out next September.

The Rangers got a get out of cap hell card with the 3 compliance buyouts.

I heard the podcast yesterday. Marek and Elliotte were discussing the Hawks going after Panarin and Friedman said he has heard Panarin to the Rangers. It’s a big deal and the Rangers have the room. Just because they have the room doesn’t mean they should make the deal.

Escrow went up 2% this quarter. The cap at $83M includes some inflator. If revenues are not what they projected and the players lose more money in escrow, they might set the cap closer to $81M which has no inflator. $85M has the full 5%.

 

[Avery16]

The Rangers were in 2nd in the division and 4th in the conference prior to the 15-16 deadline. Yandle was absolutely never getting traded.

Lets also not forget that one of the chief pieces we moved to get Yandle (Duclair) was at his peak value as we know it to be so far. He is now on his fourth club in five seasons.

 

[East Coast Bias]

Hated the Stall trade. No way was his level of play worth 2 second rounders. And also hated that Yandle was never traded. Though I hated the Yandle trade as well.

His numbers before and after his time in NY make this absolutely not true.

The value wasn't bad. It was the fit with AV and the timing that could be questionable.

 

[Off Sides]

Not trading or self renting is one thing, renting on top I view as something a little different. I don't see either as attractive options if the roster even post those moves/non moves is still lacking in comparison to several others who would need to be beaten in a 7 game series.

 

[True Blue]

As for a points total, lets see what happens.

He has hit 49 when he was 24. I would say that hitting 50 would not be an issue as he gets older and better. For over a year, his point production has been dramatically up. And this is considering that he has not had a ton of ice item or talented linemates mostly.

I would be willing to agree that Hayes is an elite two-way C, but I don't think that alone makes up for his offensive numbers, which are lower than what a so-called "elite 2C" should produce Stepan was probably an elite 2C.

He is currently on pace for 57 points. Something that only 37 centers did in the entire league last year. If he gets 60, he will be in a league with only 35 other centers. I believe that only 8 teams in the entire NHL had a 2nd line center that scored that many. That puts him in the elite category. And that is not even discussing his two way play.

And you cannot compare the wings that Stepan played with to the what Hayes has been playing with. Nor is the ice time comparable. At least not until Hayes started to play more lately.

Some people here that Zibanjead is an elite 2C. Hayes is a great C, does things that all those other Cs cant do, but doesn't put up enough points to be considered an elite 2C.

Most around here consider Zbad to be a legit top line center. Again, if Hayes does something that only 35 centers in the entire league did last year, how is he NOT elite at his position as far as points go?

 

[Avery16]

He has hit 49 when he was 24. I would say that hitting 50 would not be an issue as he gets older and better. For over a year, his point production has been dramatically up. And this is considering that he has not had a ton of ice item or talented linemates mostly.

He is currently on pace for 57 points. Something that only 37 centers did in the entire league last year. If he gets 60, he will be in a league with only 35 other centers. I believe that only 8 teams in the entire NHL had a 2nd line center that scored that many. That puts him in the elite category. And that is not even discussing his two way play.

And you cannot compare the wings that Stepan played with to the what Hayes has been playing with. Nor is the ice time comparable. At least not until Hayes started to play more lately.

Most around here consider Zbad to be a legit top line center. Again, if Hayes does something that only 35 centers in the entire league did last year, how is he NOT elite at his position as far as points go?

It could put him in the "elite" category. Being on pace for something gets you nothing until you're there. I'm sure Hayes was on pace to exceed 50 points in the past, yet still hasn't. Shit happens.

 

[Waivers]

I viewed 2019 as being a follow-up to 2018, but with a slightly different approach.

IMO, 2018 was about acquiring a lot of those core players you talked about. This year was about looking for the high-end pieces to add to that core.

Guys like Howden, Chytil, Andersson, etc. have the potential to good, core NHL players. But I don't know if they strike fear into the hearts of opponents either. And that's probably what the Rangers are hoping to find --- either players that other teams have to adjust for, or at least enough depth and assets to get those guys if the opportunity presents itself (and those opportunities will with time).

I think the only time in recent years as a team we struck fear into the opponent is when we were in 2013-2014 - we were stacked from top to bottom (St Louis, Richards, Nash, and the entire blue line). From an individual player perspective, Gaborik was lethal up front, so was Jagr. Nash may have been the last 'threatening' piece we have had. There is really no one threatening which is what the Rangers are in dire need of. They need high octane up front, and they really need to steady out the back. They don't even need a superstar back there, but they need capable defenders.

 

[offdacrossbar]

He has hit 49 when he was 24. I would say that hitting 50 would not be an issue as he gets older and better. For over a year, his point production has been dramatically up. And this is considering that he has not had a ton of ice item or talented linemates mostly.

He is currently on pace for 57 points. Something that only 37 centers did in the entire league last year. If he gets 60, he will be in a league with only 35 other centers. I believe that only 8 teams in the entire NHL had a 2nd line center that scored that many. That puts him in the elite category. And that is not even discussing his two way play.

And you cannot compare the wings that Stepan played with to the what Hayes has been playing with. Nor is the ice time comparable. At least not until Hayes started to play more lately.

Most around here consider Zbad to be a legit top line center. Again, if Hayes does something that only 35 centers in the entire league did last year, how is he NOT elite at his position as far as points go?

good stuff.

i continue to believe that 13 with better more talented wingers or atleast the same wings and PP1 time 93 gets, would put up numbers in the mid 60's which as a 2C puts him in "elite" 2C company.

this team lacks finishers. period. wheres the goals that result from the work 13 does on a consistent basis. 5v5 13 is a possession monster and a driver. those numbers are quite obvious. we have no finish.

and that in and of itself will repress scoring numbers. add to that top line matchup responsibilities and PK1 time and you end up with a 57 point 13.

 

[BobMarleyNYR]

He's more than an average 4th liner. He's going to price himself out of NY.

Do you really see the Rangers giving him a Dale Weisse/Komarov/Roussell/Beagle deal? Love him and I hope I'm wrong because I'd love for him to retire a career Ranger but I ca't see them going north of $3 million which will be about $3.50 because of NY inflation.

They're all agitators. Fast can lay on a hit but he doesn't disrupt like that. If he demands 3, they COULD afford it, and shouldn't. There's no leverage to get more than a 3rd... for that reason, he won't be traded.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

His numbers before and after his time in NY make this absolutely not true.

The value wasn't bad. It was the fit with AV and the timing that could be questionable.

This was my exact take at the time.

 

[Tawnos]

His numbers before and after his time in NY make this absolutely not true.

The value wasn't bad. It was the fit with AV and the timing that could be questionable.

It didn’t help that Staal played like crap when he was out there.

 

[GAGLine]

His numbers before and after his time in NY make this absolutely not true.

The value wasn't bad. It was the fit with AV and the timing that could be questionable.

His numbers with Carolina were bad prior to the trade and he had been trending downward in previous years.

2012-13: 53 points in 48 games
2013-14: 61 points in 79 games
2014-15: 54 points in 77 games
2015-16: 33 points in 63 games

He was just over .5 ppg with Carolina that year.

 

[East Coast Bias]

His numbers with Carolina were bad prior to the trade and he had been trending downward in previous years.

2012-13: 53 points in 48 games
2013-14: 61 points in 79 games
2014-15: 54 points in 77 games
2015-16: 33 points in 63 games

He was just over .5 ppg with Carolina that year.

Yeah I mean he was having a rough year in 15-16, but was shooting 6%. He was also 30. But all of that was known. The before and after showed it was in fact an aberration.

If we're going to be expecting a 1st for Hayes, who I like a lot, but never put up close to those numbers, I don't think we can call 2 2nds a bad trade.

 

[True Blue]

It could put him in the "elite" category. Being on pace for something gets you nothing until you're there. I'm sure Hayes was on pace to exceed 50 points in the past, yet still hasn't. **** happens.

The sample size is much larger than you think. For last year, from December on, his point pace was 67 points. If you extend his sample, from last December to this December, his point pace is 59.97. So for a year now, his point scoring was at the level. That is not just a hot streak. This 67 games and counting.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

A bottom six player, ideally a 4th liner, will NEVER get a 2nd, though he's that valuable to NYR, which says more about the team than him. Great utility guy, grinds, PKs, forechecks. In the top-six, he creates space but that's it. It means no one else is doing it when a 4th liner is playing a top-six supporting role.

Still, he'll NEVER return what he's worth to NYR and is a new-age Erixon. He'll either retire in NY or blow out a tire years from now and be dealt for a 6th or 7th.

We literally got a 2nd rounder plus a prospect for a bottom 6 player this year

 

[bobbop]

I'll agree we have some core guys in place, but I don't see the skill level or depth yet that a real top contender will need.

I think we have some wheels, we have some important other parts.

Not quite sure we have enough cylinders in the engine, or the fuel intake we're going to need.

Speaking to the cylinders, a V6 will get you to work nicely. But it ain't gonna win any races when we're up against V8s and V12s.

Unfortunately they don't make V12s anymore. Salary cap casualty.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

We literally got a 2nd rounder plus a prospect for a bottom 6 player this year

Bottom 6 Player who scored 50+ goals over the previous season and 3/4 though.

We did well there, but Grabner wasn't some run of the mill bottom sixer.

 

[Avery16]

Bottom 6 Player who scored 50+ goals over the previous season and 3/4 though.

We did well there, but Grabner wasn't some run of the mill bottom sixer.

I felt like we didnt get enough for Grabner at the time, but he didnt do much for NJ either.

 

[effen]

Almost every team has a 3rd/4th liner who does all the right things. They're all over the league. On rare occasions they'll get outsized returns but in none of those cases were they a winger who can't score.