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Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XLII Time for Curtis Lazar?

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I think the most recent comparison to an Eichel trade would be Joe Thornton. You really have to go back a ways to find someone who was that highly touted and had already proved he could be a dominant player in the NHL. He didn't have nearly the term left on his contract and was a couple years older, but he was an elite player who had just signed a brand new deal with Boston. The other big difference is that Thornton didn't indicate he was unhappy, as far as I know. I think he was actually blindsided, IIRC.

You could look at Erik Karlsson but there were a lot of things at play there including the looming UFA status. Seguin was a good player at the time, but he wasn't producing like Eichel nor was he carrying a franchise on his back like Eichel is.
 
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GoAwayStaal said:
It's hard to draw up a perfect comparison since he was moved exactly as his ELC expired, but I'll concede that he was a rung below at the time of being moved compared to Eichel now, despite the age difference.

But there is a large, large gulf between what Seguin returned and a Lindros Package. I would be beyond shocked if Eichel is moved and the package isn't closer to what Seguin returned. The "future" pieces will be better (higher regarded prospects, multiple picks) and roster player(s) younger, but it would be almost impossible for it to get beyond that IMO.

Not even McDavid returns a Lindros package.
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Seguin being moved was the modern equivalent to the Zubov trade, that's why the value seemed off.
 
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Savant said:
- What does Zibanejad age have to do with it?
- Look at the teams Eichel have been on
- Nash went to a Cup final and multiple ECF as a Ranger. I’d say it worked out pretty well.
- How is Eichel similar to Nash? At all
- Why doesn’t deal make sense?
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Zibanejad is our top Center we need to worry about re-signing him, not overpaying for a similar player who already has a 10 mil cap hit.

You are thinking of Nash the Ranger, prior to the Columbus trade he was a pretty big scorer and unhappy captain on a losing team. only 4 playoff games in 9 seasons with Columbus.

His production with the Rangers was overall pretty bad considering his high cap hit he averaged 0.672 points per game with Rangers while prior to that he averaged 0.867 points per game so almost a 20% drop in production.
 
I rather just sign some big UFA than overpay for Eichel. you cannot expect to have so many star players and high cap hits when there is a Cap in place.
 
Trxjw said:
I think the most recent comparison to an Eichel trade would be Joe Thornton. You really have to go back a ways to find someone who was that highly touted and had already proved he could be a dominant player in the NHL. He didn't have nearly the term left on his contract and was a couple years older, but he was an elite player who had just signed a brand new deal with Boston. The other big difference is that Thornton didn't indicate he was unhappy, as far as I know. I think he was actually blindsided, IIRC.

You could look at Erik Karlsson but there were a lot of things at play there including the looming UFA status. Seguin was a good player at the time, but he wasn't producing like Eichel nor was he carrying a franchise on his back like Eichel is.
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Thornton was done with Boston. The riff was pretty bad and Boston was a mess pretty much from the mid-90s to about 2009. Nobody cared about them and they were never talked about as a dominant team or potential Cup contender. What happened with them is a combination of luck, media, and good fortune. Gorton basically hit a Grand Slam in a Game 7 of the WS with that 2006 draft. That type of draft happens maybe once every 20 years. On top of that Thomas got really hot at an older age and AV outcoahced himself in the finals in 2011. This all plus the other three Boston franchises winning championships and getting loads of press elevated the Bruins and made them pretty important again. And by that time they had competent management.

I vividly remember watching a Rangers-Islanders game on OLN during the 2005-06 season a week before the Thornton trade and the in between periods guys were showing him not putting in effort for a face off and saying he was dogging it and wanted out of Boston. Boston had bad management back then. Gorton wasn't calling the shots for the 6-9 months he did. O'Connell took the best offer he got and ran him out of town. Very much like how Esposito was as Rangers GM.
 
I would trade for Eichel if it was Lundqvist, Trouba, Chytil, Strome, Andersson, and Hajek going the other way.
 
RGY said:
Dear lord did you not read the last paragraph regarding Howden? Let me put it right here again...

And if Howden is our best option in 2 years to handle the important depth minutes then this organization failed at drafting/developing/identifying targets...unless of course he figures out how to be a more complete player in that he realizes a role in this league and becomes a specialist at it a la Dom Moore.

I am not aiming to have a “solid” 4th line. No. I an aiming to have a 4th line of players that could be many teams 3rd lines. That consists of your young drafted/developed talent that can eventually be your 1st and 2nd line players as you lose current players due to pay increases and having to navigate the cap. You have a constant influx of talent to keep your roster competitive for several years while also having quality depth in any given year. Its a cycle. The Lightning have done it for years. Have they won a cup? No but that is very well their own demise. But since we faced them in 2015 they have certainly kept their window open a long time while we had to go into a rebuild. And they kept it open while continually being a top team in the league. There is nothing nonsensical about the way they have built their teams behind Stamkos and Kucherov which is with great depth.
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In a hard cap league you can't have it all. Even if you get lucky and have a great complete roster due to players by far outperforming their cap hits it's impossible to keep that team together. And if you are going to have a weakness on your roster, a subpar 4th line is by far the easiest one to mitigate since three lines can handle almost an entire game without being overmatched in terms of TOI. So even if you manage to put together a great 4th line it is still a very bad idea to spend money and resources on keeping it together.

Filling it with "young drafted/developed talent" isn't something you can bank on since prospect development is a bit of a crapshoot. This season we sort of did what you advocate by filling our bottom 6 with up and coming players and it was one of the worst bottom 6:es the league has seen in the past five years.

WRT your Tampa example, their roster is falling apart under the cap crunch and they have been paying through the nose to get cheap contracts just for the next season. Though I will agree that they have been as close to a complete team as we have seen in the cap era for the past two seasons, but they won't remain one for long.
 
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Skjeikspeare said:
By the way, McD only had 12 points this year. That contract is brutal. Why does no one talk about it here?
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Getting no PP time will kill any defenceman's point totals. He also spent most of the year with Cernak who isn't particularly good, his stats with Sergachev and Shatty were MUCH better.
 
Kakko Schmakko said:
Because he is not a Ranger and nobody cares about him. also because Hajek and Howden and Henrikson aren't doing so great either.
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But in retrospect maybe that trade isn't as bad as it seemed. Howden was fine, he's finding his way. I think this break will help him a lot and don't be surprised if he makes some noise in the Canes series. Henrikson is doing fine to. He's a baby sitter for more skilled players. He will physically mature and maybe he can turn into something like a Strome is for Panarin now or Nylander was when was wasn't attached to Jagr.

That Lundkvist kid they got with the draft pick...he did ok though.
 
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Skjeikspeare said:
But in retrospect maybe that trade isn't as bad as it seemed. Howden was fine, he's finding his way. I think this break will help him a lot and don't be surprised if he makes some noise in the Canes series. Henrikson is doing fine to. He's a baby sitter for more skilled players. He will physically mature and maybe he can turn into something like a Strome is for Panarin now or Nylander was when was wasn't attached to Jagr.

That Lundkvist kid they got with the draft pick...he did ok though.
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yeah that JT Miller kid is doing OK too. I was a big Miller fan, it was a huge mistake trading him. McD I always very glad to see traded.
 
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Kakko Schmakko said:
Zibanejad is our top Center we need to worry about re-signing him, not overpaying for a similar player who already has a 10 mil cap hit.

You are thinking of Nash the Ranger, prior to the Columbus trade he was a pretty big scorer and unhappy captain on a losing team. only 4 playoff games in 9 seasons with Columbus.

His production with the Rangers was overall pretty bad considering his high cap hit he averaged 0.672 points per game with Rangers while prior to that he averaged 0.867 points per game so almost a 20% drop in production.
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That’s why the Rangers need to have Trouba in the trade. Eichel basically is getting Trouba salary here. You make the deal to pair him with Zibanejad. You try to keep both, but if you can’t you can move either to retool. Gives them options. Plenty of teams have won with multiple high salary Commitments. Pittsburgh and Chicago. That’s your template.

Nash was traded to the Rangers as a 28 year old wing. He was in the tail end of his prime at that point but still contributed to a Cup contending tread, especially defensively. Eichel is a 23 year old 1C that is locked in. This is not a comparable move. You are getting the entire prime of a higher ceiling player at a position much harder to fill.
 
RGY said:
Dear lord did you not read the last paragraph regarding Howden? Let me put it right here again...

And if Howden is our best option in 2 years to handle the important depth minutes then this organization failed at drafting/developing/identifying targets...unless of course he figures out how to be a more complete player in that he realizes a role in this league and becomes a specialist at it a la Dom Moore.

I am not aiming to have a “solid” 4th line. No. I an aiming to have a 4th line of players that could be many teams 3rd lines. That consists of your young drafted/developed talent that can eventually be your 1st and 2nd line players as you lose current players due to pay increases and having to navigate the cap. You have a constant influx of talent to keep your roster competitive for several years while also having quality depth in any given year. Its a cycle. The Lightning have done it for years. Have they won a cup? No but that is very well their own demise. But since we faced them in 2015 they have certainly kept their window open a long time while we had to go into a rebuild. And they kept it open while continually being a top team in the league. There is nothing nonsensical about the way they have built their teams behind Stamkos and Kucherov which is with great depth.
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I did read it. Hence the (insert any 4th liner/marginal bottom 6er) comment. Howden is just the perfect representation of a marginal 4th liner I don’t want taking ice time away from my top players.

You and I disagree and that’s fine. I’d rather pony up for Eichel and do what the penguins did with Crosby, Malkin and Kessel. We can have a dominate top 6/9 and stock the 4th line with PK specialists that play 5 mins of ev time (home grown or not doesn’t matter to me).
 
Blue Blooded said:
In a hard cap league you can't have it all. Even if you get lucky and have a great complete roster due to players by far outperforming their cap hits it's impossible to keep that team together. And if you are going to have a weakness on your roster, a subpar 4th line is by far the easiest one to mitigate since three lines can handle almost an entire game without being overmatched in terms of TOI. So even if you manage to put together a great 4th line it is still a very bad idea to spend money and resources on keeping it together.

Filling it with "young drafted/developed talent" isn't something you can bank on since prospect development is a bit of a crapshoot. This season we sort of did what you advocate by filling our bottom 6 with up and coming players and it was one of the worst bottom 6:es the league has seen in the past five years.

WRT your Tampa example, their roster is falling apart under the cap crunch and they have been paying through the nose to get cheap contracts just for the next season. Though I will agree that they have been as close to a complete team as we have seen in the cap era for the past two seasons, but they won't remain one for long.
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Holy cow...in a hard cap league having the young talent on your 4th line is EXACTLY how you survive in this league. You just proved my point.

At some point you cant keep everyone and the middle 6 players that price themselves out of town need to be replaced. THOSE are the hardest players to replace when youve emptied the cupboard for one player in your top 6.

What money are they spending on the 4th line? How much have I advocated spending? Young kids on ELCs is breaking the bank? What resources? Letting your young drafted talent ease their way into the NHL in a limited role on a very competitive team?

For this year’s team, it failed because Howden did not really progress however at the same time he has not been considered one of their premium forward prospects. They also ran the likes of Michale freaking Haley out there at times instead of signing someone like Brian Boyle on the extreme cheap to help insulate someone like Howden. The Rangers other problem is they havent drafted/developed enough forwards in recent years. Part of that is because they stripped themselves of so many draft picks via trades.

I dont understand the critique of Tampa. Theyve been a cup contender since 2015. 6 seasons. So what if they teeter out in 2 years? Thats 7-8 years of a window. Thats incredible. I admire them. They have done things the right way and unfortunately have come up short.
 
RGY said:
Holy cow...in a hard cap league having the young talent on your 4th line is EXACTLY how you survive in this league. You just proved my point.

At some point you cant keep everyone and the middle 6 players that price themselves out of town need to be replaced. THOSE are the hardest players to replace when youve emptied the cupboard for one player in your top 6.

What money are they spending on the 4th line? How much have I advocated spending? Young kids on ELCs is breaking the bank? What resources? Letting your young drafted talent ease their way into the NHL in a limited role on a very competitive team?

For this year’s team, it failed because Howden did not really progress however at the same time he has not been considered one of their premium forward prospects. They also ran the likes of Michale freaking Haley out there at times instead of signing someone like Brian Boyle on the extreme cheap to help insulate someone like Howden. The Rangers other problem is they havent drafted/developed enough forwards in recent years. Part of that is because they stripped themselves of so many draft picks via trades.

I dont understand the critique of Tampa. Theyve been a cup contender since 2015. 6 seasons. So what if they teeter out in 2 years? Thats 7-8 years of a window. Thats incredible. I admire them. They have done things the right way and unfortunately have come up short.
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You can't just throw a bunch of kids into the bottom 6/4th line and assume it will be great. You either spend money and resources to guarantee you have at least a few quality players there, or you gamble on cheap vets and prospects. The latter strategy can strike gold, but the likely outcome is a subpar performance.

The Howden and Kakko examples underline this. We were banking on them being able to if not bring a line up, at least not tank it completely - which is what they did.

Now I have no issues with spending an absolute minimum on the 4th line with cheap vets and ELC talent, but I also admit that the likely outcome is a line that is most likely going to be a below average 4th line. You can't just say I want a 4th line better than most 3rd lines and I'm not going to spend anything to get it. How are you acquiring an endless stream of future top-6 forwards to replenish the lineup, who all somehow flourish playing 4th line hockey? I'm pretty sure every team would do that if it was simple.
 
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Is there anything or an insider connecting nyr to eichel or a legit report that he wants out, or is this all wishful thinking and banter?
 
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