Speculation: Roster Building Thread - Part XIII (Nanaki edition)

[SA16]

If you're going to have a discussion about how team play affects individual analytics, and you're not using team-relative analytics which have been out since 2008, it's not a serious discussion. I'm not required to pretend every opinion is serious. Do better work. I don't what to tell you.

My comment to @SnowblindNYR was simply to point out that Miller has been picked on a lot less. No, it's not a metric for performance, but if you think the board constantly throwing a guy under the bus (Lindgren) versus talking about how a guy still has potential (Miller) doesn't influence perception, again, I don't know what to tell you.

And yeah, I'm going to start the narrative that it's "those three" and "those two" because that's what I think people need to hear and I have the data to back it up.

Relative team analytics can be just as bad. They make average players on bad teams look good and average players on good teams look bad. There is a reason, for years, Bruins 4th liners had terrible relative analytics and it's not because they were all terrible players. Like 35% of their off ice time was being compared to Marchand/Bergeron/Pastrnak.

Look at Coyle. Pretty average impacts in Minnesota. Goes to Boston - 3 straight years between -4 and -7 RelCF%. Bergeron retires. Right away, he puts up his best impact in years (still not a good number but a lot better than it was)

 

[Machinehead]

okay now write it again and take responsibility for your past viewpoints, acknowledge how current data proves that your hypotheses at that point were incorrect, and conclude that your approach to data analysis should probably fundamentally change in light of this new data.

here's my suggestion, opinions 201: if you're so convinced that Miller sucks, and that the data supports that, research and make the counterargument. Educate yourself beyond what you already believe, and challenge your own assumptions.

Look forward to hearing your thoughts!

The whole Miller thing is a completely separate issue.

You came in this morning with "all analytics are garbage because I used the wrong ones."

That's not a serious take.

 

[Machinehead]

Relative team analytics can be just as bad. They make average players on bad teams look good and average players on good teams look bad. There is a reason, for years, Bruins 4th liners had terrible relative analytics and it's not because they were all terrible players. Like 35% of their off ice time was being compared to Marchand/Bergeron/Pastrnak.

Yeah, nuance exists.

At least bring all the data to the table before we even have that discussion.

And maybe have better examples than Ryan Reaves.

 

[AirGut]

The main problem is every other GM in this league wants to f*** the Rangers. Nobody is going to help us with the big boy trades. It never seems to work in our favor because we're a constant target.

 

[Alluckks]

Also - The likely hood that someone leaked Kreider's name as a way to tell him to get his shit together is pretty high IMO.

I think it is exactly that. Kreider has his name in there as a message. Zib can't be traded right now due to logistics (NTC, cap hit, in-season etc.).

Lindgren and Trouba should be the main moving targets.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

PSA that the Panthers rebuilt their defense in one offseason.

They turned Staal, Gudas, and Mahura into OEL, Kulikov, and Mikkola.

Nothing revolutionary, just nixing absolutely horrible players, and replacing them with guys that deserve jobs in the NHL (actually Gudas is pretty good, Marc Staal is the important part of this post).

People like to compare the rosters and say they don't see the difference on paper, but having no terrible players is just as important as having great ones.

This is the thing NYR has stuggled with the most over the years. They insist on having at elast one, usually more than 1, at all times

 

[Alluckks]

I started getting tired of MIller last year.

You can't put too much stock into "how do the existing pieces work best together?" versus what I think about those pieces as individuals.

Miller-Fox is a good pair. Always has been, still is. It's also true that Miller can't handle the limited minutes he's out there without Fox.

I feel like, sometimes, you try to take nuanced situations and make them one thing or another. I can like a pair and dislike a player on it.

I think Miller still has the tools in his toolbox to put together exactly what we would want from him though. Which is why I don't mind continuing to roll with that pair. But, ideally, Trouba and Lindgren would be gone and both Jones and Mancini would get the full time rolls.

 

[Machinehead]

This is the thing NYR has stuggled with the most over the years. They insist on having at elast one, usually more than 1, at all times

Three of their top four defensemen!

 

[tlk]

RIP Kakko

On the contrary. He's our new 1C

 

[Alluckks]

Also, complain about Rempe's skillset on the ice all you want. But he seems to be a model team player and well liked. If the vets are getting lazy, or complacent, then bringing in hard working guys that don't stop like Rempe and Berard can help send a message for all the team instances we don't see for the 60 minutes every other night.

 

[SA16]

I think Miller still has the tools in his toolbox to put together exactly what we would want from him though. Which is why I don't mind continuing to roll with that pair. But, ideally, Trouba and Lindgren would be gone and both Jones and Mancini would get the full time rolls.

Mancini has done nothing to show he should get a full time role. He has just about the worst xG stats of any dman in the entire NHL. Not slightly below average. Bottom five. Just because he's young and the name on the back of his jersey is not "Trouba" or "Lindgren" does not mean he is an asset. He needs to be playing big minutes in the AHL because he's played lesser minutes in the NHL against weak competition and gotten demolished so fa.r

 

[rangers1314]

Just do what you should have done in July and trade Ryan Lindgren already

 

[Kords]

The thing that always bugged me about Trouba and Kreider's trade value is that their value would always be highest around the TDL and never in my wildest imaginations would I see the Rangers doing something like that. Competitive teams would fall over themselves for those types of players (before you say it, GM's love the Trouba types). If Drury is trying to put guys on notice or genuinely looking to shake things up, I applaud him. I know people hate him around here and I get it, but I think he knows what's what.

Edit: for the record i'm on team NOT trade Kreider. Love Kreids, just play him as a third line pker.

 

[LaffyTaffy13]

Cuylle has made kreider 100% expendable. Cuylle is kreider if kreider was capable of producing testosterone.

I think we see some big moves this offseason with trouba, kreider and lindgren gone and perhaps even kandre gone. Will be interesting

I dont post here a ton but when I do, its usually because im hearing something. Have a few friends in the nhl

 

[Machinehead]

I think Miller still has the tools in his toolbox to put together exactly what we would want from him though. Which is why I don't mind continuing to roll with that pair. But, ideally, Trouba and Lindgren would be gone and both Jones and Mancini would get the full time rolls.

I'm just getting to the point where I'm not that sold on the tools.

He can skate which is very good, and he's tall which I don't really care about.

Beyond that, the defensive IQ isn't there, his puck skills are terrible at this level, and doesn't get his shot through. For all of his speed, he lacks the brain and stick to play fast.

That's just my opinion. I know I'm not allowed to say anything without some people getting mad.

 

[haohmaru]

I think Miller still has the tools in his toolbox to put together exactly what we would want from him though. Which is why I don't mind continuing to roll with that pair. But, ideally, Trouba and Lindgren would be gone and both Jones and Mancini would get the full time rolls.

Mancini is a nice story but he’s not ready for a “full time role” yet.

 

[Machinehead]

I dont post here a ton but when I do, its usually because im hearing something. Have a few friends in the nhl

Kreider has 312 goals in the NHL. Can Cuylle maybe get to 25 before we put the entire cart before the entire horse?

 

[Machinehead]

Mancini is a nice story but he’s not ready for a “full time role” yet.

Let me explain this as painstakingly as I can before people bring it up in two years.

Right now, on November 25th, 2024, Mancini stinks when he's playing NHL hockey.

Maybe tomorrow he doesn't stink. Today he does.

He's talented and I like him as a prospect, but he needs a lot of work before I pencil him in.

 

[Alluckks]

I'm just getting to the point where I'm not that sold on the tools.

He can skate which is very good, and he's tall which I don't really care about.

Beyond that, the defensive IQ isn't there, his puck skills are terrible at this level, and doesn't get his shot through. For all of his speed, he lacks the brain and stick to play fast.

That's just my opinion. I know I'm not allowed to say anything without some people getting mad.

He reminds me of Rangers Skjei a bit

Let me explain this as painstakingly as I can before people bring it up in two years.

Right now, on November 25th, 2024, Mancini stinks when he's playing NHL hockey.

Maybe tomorrow he doesn't stink. Today he does.

He's talented and I like him as a prospect, but he needs a lot of work before I pencil him in.

It was more about penciling other guys out.

Ideally they would get some meh vet to fill/replace

 

[Machinehead]

He reminds me of Rangers Skjei a bit

Right now, and again, things change, he's more like John Moore.

It was more about penciling other guys out.

Ideally they would get some meh vet to fill/replace

By the time this actually regurgitates itself, Mancini might be ready to get a look.

 

[Ruggs225]

I'm just getting to the point where I'm not that sold on the tools.

He can skate which is very good, and he's tall which I don't really care about.

Beyond that, the defensive IQ isn't there, his puck skills are terrible at this level, and doesn't get his shot through. For all of his speed, he lacks the brain and stick to play fast.

That's just my opinion. I know I'm not allowed to say anything without some people getting mad.

I with you on Miller. He still has alot of value too. If we can jettison him in the offseason we could get a good haul for him.

I just dont see how we can trade him in season when our problem is defense.

Unless we can trade Kreider for a top 4 dman who can step in immediately. I dont think any other forward could bring back a top 4, unless we trade Kakko or Cuylle which would be dumb.

Its almost as if we have to punt this season. The good thing is we have a solid young core of laf, cuylle, chytil, kakko, Schneider, fox, jones. Plus shesty, tro and panarin.

Thats a playoff team in itself. We also have some interesting youth. We just need 2 top 4 dmen, which is easier said than done.

 

[nyrob13]

Getting rid of Lindgren and firing Housley would keep me content until at least next week

 

[McRanger92]

I dont expect this but it would really be something if Kreider has played his last game as a Ranger.

 

[Machinehead]

I dont expect this but it would really be something if Kreider has played his last game as a Ranger.

It would be depressing.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

I'm just getting to the point where I'm not that sold on the tools.

He can skate which is very good, and he's tall which I don't really care about.

Beyond that, the defensive IQ isn't there, his puck skills are terrible at this level, and doesn't get his shot through. For all of his speed, he lacks the brain and stick to play fast.

That's just my opinion. I know I'm not allowed to say anything without some people getting mad.

he looked so good 2 years ago though, and the fancies had him as a very good defender. I think this new coaching staff has been a horrible fit for him