Roster Building Thread - Part XII(Training Camp/Preseason)

[kovazub94]

To have an effective second power play unit we'll need a net front guy like Cuylle, Rempe, Edstrom like you said or players making timing runs towards the net as someone's shooting. A whole lot of goals are scored by taking the goalies eyes away. You need point guys who can get pucks through. Do I think Jones could be that kind of player on a second unit? I do but the caveat is he's played 69 NHL games and has 0 power play goals and only 1 assist. So while I think he has the skills he hasn't done it yet though the next caveat is he hasn't had a lot of opportunity yet either. Right now he lives in the land of ? mark. The problems I'm seen from the units with Lafreniere, Chytil, Kakko, Wheeler last year is puck control and net front presence. Guy like Trouba and Miller haven't been great at moving the puck around either. Trouba has a hard shot....most of the time it's been either off the mark or been blocked and he's a bit of a one trick pony. He's not great at playmaking so he defers to his shot way too much. Miller is not a great playmaker either.

The first unit move the puck around with tic-tac-toe one time passing. When they're doing that well opponents defenses start thinking about running up the white flag and goalies are scrambling from one side to the other. With Kreider in front it's panic time for them and it can be demoralizing in a 'we better be careful not to take any more penalties' kind of way.

Nothing really to add - PP2 struggles is exactly as you described - with possible exception of Lafreniere (who could improve there in his own right), all options on that unit are subpar in possession / puck control area. Inserting Jones and R Smith in theory could be a big help there.

 

[TominNC]

I don’t disagree with this, but if the PP gets stale at any point during the season, swapping in Laf for Trochek should be the first thing they try.

Losing faceoffs is the quickest way to derail your PP. You need that first draw deep in their zone

 

[Shesterkybomb]

He’s a useful experienced NHL player. He had 19 points in 57 games last year. That’s a useful 4th line player who can slot in all over the lineup when needed.

Sure but guys like Brodzinski are a dime a dozen, you don't make roster decisions over the threat of losing a non difference maker you could replace in a heartbeat

 

[noncents]

i'm just not so interested in "fixing" the PP. yes it went cold during the FLA series, but they were a great PK team and Fox wasn't right. It happens.

The bigger issue is 5v5. Chytil can tilt the ice, but I'm not sure Cuylle is the right fit on that line - regardless of the "chem" that certain posters insist he and Kakko have, whilst inhaling deeply from a stemmed glass filled with their own fart.

Id like to see both Othmann and Edström get a look next to 72 and 24. both the shot/prick factor of 78 and the size/cycling of 84 could benefit those 2 in different ways.

Meanwhile, a Cuylle Carrick Rempe 4th line is an absolute bastard vibe. They would completely wreck shit. Imagine lil Lane Hutson eating that beef all night. Plus, it mitigates what to me is the biggest issue with Edström's prospective roster fit: Lavi won't run both Rempe and Edström on the 4th line together. They're too green. It simply won't happen.

It does still leave a 2nd issue: PK F pairs. Lavi likes vet PKers, he trusts them. It's a classic development quandary, expressed countless times. Young guys cant PK because they don't have experience, and they don't get experience because they cant PK.

However, if we see Lavi willing to throw out a Cuylle/Carrick 3rd PK group, along with 93/20 and troch/smith, my ideal lineup is probably:

Kreider Zib Smith
Bread Troch Laf
Edström Chytil Kakko
Cuylle Carrick Rempe/Vesey

Miller Fox
Jones Schneider
Mancini Trouba
Ruhwedel

 

[Profet]

To have an effective second power play unit we'll need a net front guy like Cuylle, Rempe, Edstrom like you said or players making timing runs towards the net as someone's shooting. A whole lot of goals are scored by taking the goalies eyes away. You need point guys who can get pucks through. Do I think Jones could be that kind of player on a second unit? I do but the caveat is he's played 69 NHL games and has 0 power play goals and only 1 assist. So while I think he has the skills he hasn't done it yet though the next caveat is he hasn't had a lot of opportunity yet either. Right now he lives in the land of ? mark. The problems I'm seen from the units with Lafreniere, Chytil, Kakko, Wheeler last year is puck control and net front presence. Guy like Trouba and Miller haven't been great at moving the puck around either. Trouba has a hard shot....most of the time it's been either off the mark or been blocked and he's a bit of a one trick pony. He's not great at playmaking so he defers to his shot way too much. Miller is not a great playmaker either.

The first unit move the puck around with tic-tac-toe one time passing. When they're doing that well opponents defenses start thinking about running up the white flag and goalies are scrambling from one side to the other. With Kreider in front it's panic time for them and it can be demoralizing in a 'we better be careful not to take any more penalties' kind of way.

Disagree.... The biggest issue with PP2 is they are TERRIBLE at faceoffs and zone entries. They always spend 20-30 seconds just trying to get into the offensive zone with possession.

I think it's pretty rare for that squad to actually get the power play setup. Net front presence is useless if you never have the opportunity to get it setup.

 

[bernmeister]

Sure but guys like Brodzinski are a dime a dozen, you don't make roster decisions over the threat of losing a non difference maker you could replace in a heartbeat

not so fast
chemistry
a dif guy could be better, could be worse
Brodz is familiar to fellow Fs and they to him
he is not all star for sure, and perhaps only nominally so w/limitations, but he is a net positive

again peeps DITCH VESEY

 

[eco's bones]

Disagree.... The biggest issue with PP2 is they are TERRIBLE at faceoffs and zone entries. They always spend 20-30 seconds just trying to get into the offensive zone with possession.

I think it's pretty rare for that squad to actually get the power play setup. Net front presence is useless if you never have the opportunity to get it setup.

I'll agree that their zone entries aren't great either but that's part of good puck possession. The thing with the tic-tac-toe passing the first unit does is it's happening so fast that opponents hardly have time to adjust and it breaks down the defense. With Chytil and Kakko who tend to be the main movers of the second unit.....they hold on to the puck long and opponents keep their penalty kill structure. Trouba and/or Miller don't move the puck well enough up top either.

To me Lafreniere would be the guy to replace someone on the first unit if we had to but he's not going to provide the net presence or tipping in pucks abilities of Kreider and he's going to be on his backhand because he's a left shot which the others sans Kreider all being right shots helps them whip the puck around better and he's not a center taking face-offs like the bumper position Trocheck or the left wing one timer Zibanejad are. It would be nice if Mika's shot were a bit more accurate but those one time shots on target or not tend to keep the other side on their back foot.

 

[Profet]

I'll agree that their zone entries aren't great either but that's part of good puck possession. The thing with the tic-tac-toe passing the first unit does is it's happening so fast that opponents hardly have time to adjust and it breaks down the defense. With Chytil and Kakko who tend to be the main movers of the second unit.....they hold on to the puck long and opponents keep their penalty kill structure. Trouba and/or Miller don't move the puck well enough up top either.

To me Lafreniere would be the guy to replace someone on the first unit if we had to but he's not going to provide the net presence or tipping in pucks abilities of Kreider and he's going to be on his backhand because he's a left shot which the others sans Kreider all being right shots helps them whip the puck around better and he's not a center taking face-offs like the bumper position Trocheck or the left wing one timer Zibanejad are. It would be nice if Mika's shot were a bit more accurate but those one time shots on target or not tend to keep the other side on their back foot.

Yep... But I also don't think Chytil is who you want taking faceoffs on the second PP.

Trocheck winning faceoffs on the top unit is such an underrated aspect to that unit's success.

Losing an offensive zone draw with PP2 kills that unit's chances. They just aren't good enough to get back into the zone and get setup in the 30-40 seconds remaining after losing that faceoff.

That's their biggest issue imo.

I'm not sure what the solution is. Make Trocheck stay out there for PP2's faceoffs? I dunno.

 

[kovazub94]

Yep... But I also don't think Chytil is who you want taking faceoffs on the second PP.

Trocheck winning faceoffs on the top unit is such an underrated aspect to that unit's success.

Losing an offensive zone draw with PP2 kills that unit's chances. They just aren't good enough to get back into the zone and get setup in the 30-40 seconds remaining after losing that faceoff.

That's their biggest issue imo.

I'm not sure what the solution is. Make Trocheck stay out there for PP2's faceoffs? I dunno.

Don’t know the break down but “by nature” face-off situations are less frequent for PP2 and therefore it’s a less important aspect compared to puck possession (which includes structures zone entries).

 

[mandiblesofdoom]

Sure but guys like Brodzinski are a dime a dozen, you don't make roster decisions over the threat of losing a non difference maker you could replace in a heartbeat

I agree ... however too often I've seen NYR choose worse players.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

not so fast
chemistry
a dif guy could be better, could be worse
Brodz is familiar to fellow Fs and they to him
he is not all star for sure, and perhaps only nominally so w/limitations, but he is a net positive

again peeps DITCH VESEY

I'm no fan of vesey but he is an nhl player who penalty kills. Again if Othmann or Edstrom is a better fit you have to take your chances and sent Brodz to the minors and if someone claims him so be it, but that hasn't happened to us yet because as I said, those types are a dime a dozen.

 

[B17 Apricots]

Its hard to really draw an accurate picture of the 2nd unit. Teams are averaging around 3 powerplays a game. The 2nd unit guys are only averaging 1 minute to 1.5 minutes a game on the PP. Pretty much confirms what we usually see, these guys generally come on when the puck gets cleared after the first unit is out there for a minute and half. Its hard to really talk about their zone time and entries and stuff like that when by the time they get back up the ice the PP is over. Laf averaged under 1 minute and 20 seconds of PP time a game. If your averaging 3 powerplays a game that means the kid is seeing less than 30 seconds on each powerplay. Hard to really draw conclusions from that.

The other angle there is obviously personnel. Who the hell even made up that 2nd unit for most of the year? You might've had 2 guys even worth talking about there, Laf and Gus. Chytil is a key piece there who was out all year. Kakko missed some time too, although he underperformed. 50 year old Blake Wheeler got PP minutes, Johnny B got PP time. The first unit got most of the meaningful powerplay usage, and rightfully so, they're one of the best in the league. Most of the year the 2nd unit was an afterthought, they were placeholders until the PP expired.

This year the 2nd unit could be a viable tool and I'd like to see it more when the first unit is going through funks. Zac Jones and Schneider are the guys you want there on D. Number of options up front now, Chytil and Laf are locks. Who's the 3rd? Kakko, Othmann, Smith? Cuylle and Edström might be good net front guys. I like the potential for this 2nd unit if these guys can stay healthy

 

[Profet]

Don’t know the break down but “by nature” face-off situations are less frequent for PP2 and therefore it’s a less important aspect compared to puck possession (which includes structures zone entries).

I think many of PP2's initial on ice situation include offensive zone draws. Goalie gets a stoppage/save on PP1... PP2 comes over the boards.

Id wager that is fairly common.

 

[TGWL]

I'm sure AK is right but it almost doesn't matter if they've played LD before as this org is allergic to trying to do these things regardless.

I sort of get it, playing your offside as a D at the NHL level is hard to do but they've been so steadfast on keeping people on their strong side/letting shitty vets with some NHL experience get extended looks. Moving a guy who hasn't played at the NHL level into that spot and seeing if it works is... not something that they've done.

It may not work out at all but its a breath of fresh air.

It's harder to do when you get caught defending in your own zone and can't get the puck out. If you can get the puck out faster (we can't), then it should become easier for players on their off side to create offense and not waste as many plays dumping it down the boards, as they likely have a little more room on their forehand to make a move or find an open lane.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

If I was making 2 units it would be

Pp1
Zib Kreider Lafreniere Panarin Fox

Pp2
Trochek, Othmann, Chytil, Smith Jones

Play them equally, make sure PP2 has different looks than pp1 so we avoid getting shut down in playoffs. If you are having an issue with winning faceoffs Trochek can join pp1 for the draw. If you want, Panarin can stay out longer and join pp2 for a bit

 

[TGWL]

Disagree.... The biggest issue with PP2 is they are TERRIBLE at faceoffs and zone entries. They always spend 20-30 seconds just trying to get into the offensive zone with possession.

I think it's pretty rare for that squad to actually get the power play setup. Net front presence is useless if you never have the opportunity to get it setup.

Chytil should help the zone entries when he's not getting wrecked. Most of their shifts should be on-the-fly. I mean, Chytil, Laf, Kakko, Jones already sounds better than what we got last season. They won't be getting equal time, nor do I believe they should be receiving the same minutes. The best players on your team keeping you at top 3-5 overall on the powerplay should receive most of the ice time. Obviously you take them off the ice if they can't get the puck in the zone but I don't think this team is right for 2 equal units. I'd put money down that with 2 equal units, we would not have been a top 5 pp% team last season.

During the season, full, fast-paced practices are rare. "We'll get back to work" typically involves film, talking, and some quick relaxed skates. It's not like the powerplay is going to really get a chance to practice other than game time situations, and most coaches can't afford to change it up and give time to a line that isn't clicking or scoring.

 

[IDvsEGO]

If I was making 2 units it would be

Pp1
Zib Kreider Lafreniere Panarin Fox

Pp2
Trochek, Othmann, Chytil, Smith Jones

Play them equally, make sure PP2 has different looks than pp1 so we avoid getting shut down in playoffs. If you are having an issue with winning faceoffs Trochek can join pp1 for the draw. If you want, Panarin can stay out longer and join pp2 for a bit

I’d replace smith with kakko but otherwise I’m good with these.

 

[SA16]

I think many of PP2's initial on ice situation include offensive zone draws. Goalie gets a stoppage/save on PP1... PP2 comes over the boards.

Id wager that is fairly common.

I don't think it's that common. The Rangers PP2 players last year combined for 81 faceoffs at 5v4 so basically 1 per game.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

If I was making 2 units it would be

Pp1
Zib Kreider Lafreniere Panarin Fox

Pp2
Trochek, Othmann, Chytil, Smith Jones

Play them equally, make sure PP2 has different looks than pp1 so we avoid getting shut down in playoffs. If you are having an issue with winning faceoffs Trochek can join pp1 for the draw. If you want, Panarin can stay out longer and join pp2 for a bit

I wouldn’t play them equally, but I like those lines. Idc if Trochek is great at faceoffs, he’s not skilled or creative enough for PP1. Zibanejad and Kreider can take the faceoffs for unit 1.

 

[Mugless]

He noted in an earlier tweet that Othmann is not with the main group today:

https://x.com/i/web/status/1840411044847497631

 

[kovazub94]

I think many of PP2's initial on ice situation include offensive zone draws. Goalie gets a stoppage/save on PP1... PP2 comes over the boards.

Id wager that is fairly common.

Well we know that ALL PP1 start like that but at least half of PP2 start on the fly (when defense unit sends the puck out of its zone.

 

[bernmeister]

I'm no fan of vesey but he is an nhl player who penalty kills. Again if Othmann or Edstrom is a better fit you have to take your chances and sent Brodz to the minors and if someone claims him so be it, but that hasn't happened to us yet because as I said, those types are a dime a dozen.

disagree
bold = no big whoop
he brings little
is not best fit
sell

brodz >>> vesey