Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part LXXVIII - Calm in the eye of Desolation?

[kovazub94]

I do not care about young players struggling.

I do care when the team looks lifeless and the structure, or lack there of, is not acceptable. We do not look properly coached in that perspective.

It seems its become 'coaching individuals' instead of 'coaching a team'.

You might not notice it but from an outside perspective it looks like as though once you get an idea in your head (i.e. "bad" coach or a "bad" player) it seems that ALL your posts become dedicated to this idea reaching a bias or agenda status. So much so that even unrelated events or factors become connected to the idea to the point where folks either choose to scroll over your posts (at best) or you start getting heavy pushback and derailed discussion.

 

[Edge]

But should be examined with context. Using Farabee as a comp, as he was a first round pick. Going back all the way back to 1990 does not seem like a reasonable thing to do, so let's just look at the last 10 years. 2010's first round brought McLRath. Not a forward. 2011 brought JT Miller. Are the Rangers going to be given any credit for his development? Fair discussion. 2012 brought Skjei. Not a forward. 2013 through 2016 had no first round picks. 2017 brought both Andersson and Chytil. The latter looks to be developing well. The former, in looking in what is going on in LA, may simply not be what most hoped for. Jury is still out. And no matter what happens to him, considering that he took his ball and ran home when they were trying to develop him, it's debateable what the culpability is.

Now you have Lafreniere and Kakko.

If we're looking at age and draft, Miller is probably a better player to have in a conversation with Farabee than Kakko or Laf.

 

[Fitzy]

We're also at that weird part of the year where a two goal night could suddenly have a guy on 40 goal pace. It's just so hard to look at numbers at this point. That's why I think you've gotta look at how they're playing when it comes to the young talent.

We're still in Aaron Voros= Todd Bertuzzi part of the season

 

[MarkMessyay11]

We're still in Aaron Voros= Todd Bertuzzi part of the season

That's a name I didn't know I never wanted to hear again...

 

[Edge]

We're still in Aaron Voros= Todd Bertuzzi part of the season

The truth is, perception and results can be tricky things.

Panarin has often not resembled the player he was last year. Yet the numbers currently sit at a near 50 goal, 110 point pace.

Ditto for Kreider, and yet he now finds himself pacing at 36 goals.

Kakko has two goals, he easily could have four. There could be no noticeable differences in his actual play, but four goals would make for a very different conversation. Likewise, Lafreniere not getting a goal prior to his first was almost getting comical. If one or two of those goes in, him having 2 or 3 total goals changes the conversation about him significantly.

The point being, it's very fine lines we're working with right now.

 

[kovazub94]

No one really had the heart to say it last season but Kakko really really needed to spend a lot of time in the AHL

It makes me smh to see demands for Kakko to be put higher in the lineup or added responsibilities to address his ineffectiveness.

Not sure I agree about "a lot" but some time in the AHL could've been warranted but unfortunately we are not even sure what AHL hockey would look like this season.

 

[Avery16]

We should have really found a way to have Bertuzzi mentor a young Kreider. What a missed opportunity.

 

[JimmyG89]

I do not care about young players struggling.

I do care when the team looks lifeless and the structure, or lack there of, is not acceptable. We do not look properly coached in that perspective.

It seems its become 'coaching individuals' instead of 'coaching a team'.

While the results haven't been there, the way the team is actually playing at this moment is better than at any other time under Quinn. Outside of some isolated periods, they've been on the better end of scoring chances and overall play for the majority of the season. Of course this is a results oriented league, but the progress from being reliant upon having exceptional goaltending to compete, to one where we are in games when the goaltending is subpar is a good step forward.

We've complained over many of years that the team was so reliant on Lundqvist standing on his head to win games. Giving up 40+ shots in multiple games. Being pinned in their own zone for numerous shifts in a row. I've seen less of that in these games this season so far. In fact, they are 3-4-2 in spite of the goaltending they have received in a lot of the games. I think we know of at least 3 games so far they've received far from average goaltending.

They are currently 21st in 5v5 SV%. That's something new for us as a whole. We're very used to getting saves when needed. This season might be the first time I've been overly concerned when an opposing team is in the zone for sustained periods of time, because they haven't been getting that save. I do think this will change. Shesterkin has the pedigree to make it so. Georgiev less so, but we've seen him singlehandedly keep them and win them games. The big thing is will they still continue to be around a 50/50 split on scoring chances and shots.

 

[aufheben]

While the results haven't been there, the way the team is actually playing at this moment is better than at any other time under Quinn. Outside of some isolated periods, they've been on the better end of scoring chances and overall play for the majority of the season. Of course this is a results oriented league, but the progress from being reliant upon having exceptional goaltending to compete, to one where we are in games when the goaltending is subpar is a good step forward.

We've complained over many of years that the team was so reliant on Lundqvist standing on his head to win games. Giving up 40+ shots in multiple games. Being pinned in their own zone for numerous shifts in a row. I've seen less of that in these games this season so far. In fact, they are 3-4-2 in spite of the goaltending they have received in a lot of the games. I think we know of at least 3 games so far they've received far from average goaltending.

They are currently 21st in 5v5 SV%. That's something new for us as a whole. We're very used to getting saves when needed. This season might be the first time I've been overly concerned when an opposing team is in the zone for sustained periods of time, because they haven't been getting that save. I do think this will change. Shesterkin has the pedigree to make it so. Georgiev less so, but we've seen him singlehandedly keep them and win them games. The big thing is will they still continue to be around a 50/50 split on scoring chances and shots.

Glad someone gets it.

 

[Ghost of jas]

I think it's a little early to point to them not producing though --- especially on this roster right now.

In what is a very, very small sample size, Kakko has the most goals in his draft class and the second most points --- behind the guy who went first. He trails Hughes by four points --- all of which seem to have come against the Rangers.

He's been getting his chances and has been anywhere from a 20 to 30 goal pace in this very young season. Frankly, he's come within a short hair of having 3 or 4 goals at this point.

Lafreniere's last couple of games have not been his strongest, but he hasn't looked out of place in the NHL. At this point he barely played a full preseason worth of games in a normal season. He's got a goal in 9 games, or what works out to about 9 over a full 82 game schedule --- again in a very small (too small) sample size. He's another one who could easily have 3 or 4 goals at this point.

But what exactly should they be producing at right now?

Who's there center?

Chytil is on the IR. Zibanejad might as well be too.

That leaves who? Stroke...I mean Strome? Howden?

Who's centering these kids?

I think I'd feel different if this team was firing on all cylinders and these kids weren't getting chances or looked over-matched. But none of those things has been apparent yet.

So how do they compare to their teammates thus far? In that sense, I think they've held their own more often than not.

I'm just not seeing an emerging problem at this point in time.

I see this as being Squibb, I mean, Quinn's fault.

 

[True Blue]

He served his purpose but he is no longer what we need IMO

The team is far from a finished product and are not near their window. And you want a "win-now" coach to take over?

 

[True Blue]

I think they're next coach will be a veteran. But I also don't think he's currently out there on the market.

And I do not think that that type of coach is not near enough to in the time frame to be coming here "soon". What "soon" is can be debated.

 

[True Blue]

This is just one of those seasons where the team and their luck seem to be going North and South.

Which is where I believed that the youngest team in the league would be.

 

[MarkMessyay11]

The truth is, perception and results can be tricky things.

Panarin has often not resembled the player he was last year. Yet the numbers currently sit at a near 50 goal, 110 point pace.

Ditto for Kreider, and yet he now finds himself pacing at 36 goals.

Kakko has two goals, he easily could have four. There could be no noticeable differences in his actual play, but four goals would make for a very different conversation. Likewise, Lafreniere not getting a goal prior to his first was almost getting comical. If one or two of those goes in, him having 2 or 3 total goals changes the conversation about him significantly.

The point being, it's very fine lines we're working with right now.

A lot of good points...all of which boil up to the fact that the numbers and results just don't match the effort and output that I've witnessed so far this year. Have they been bad at times? Yes. Have they been flat at times? Yes. But the overall level of play has greatly improved from where it was at this point in the season last year. We're currently a bounce or two and/or a save or two away from being 4th in the conference instead of last.

But that doesn't matter as much to me as watching them put together a consistent, hard fought, smart effort. They aren't there yet, but it's moving in the right direction.

 

[MarkMessyay11]

Which is where I believed that the youngest team in the league would be.

Losing a lot of 1-goal games while giving up leads in the 3rd period signals 2 things to me...

1 - They're still raw and inexperienced. Consistently letting leads slip away and losing points in the 3rd period means you're probably going to be on the outside looking in at the playoffs.
2 - More importantly, they're improving because they're sticking with good teams for most of these games. The mid-game highs and lows are going to be more volatile with a younger team and it's going to be tough to watch them let leads slip in the 3rd period. But that's the only way they're going to learn to manage the game better.

 

[kovazub94]

Strome has started the season just as slow as probably more than half of the Rangers roster, if not the whole NHL. However, he is visibly coming around in the last few game and - also important to notice - he's been more disciplined in terms of not taking bad penalties in inappropriate moments this season - which is the biggest knock on him coming out of 19-20 season. Hopefully a positive trend.

 

[IDvsEGO]

Strome has started the season just as slow as probably more than half of the Rangers roster, if not the whole NHL. However, he is visibly coming around in the last few game and - also important to notice - he's been more disciplined in terms of not taking bad penalties in inappropriate moments this season - which is the biggest knock on him coming out of 19-20 season. Hopefully a positive trend.

I mean the bigger knock on him was his defensive play, but that’s not really something I ever see him fixing.

 

[duhmetreE]

I think we're sitting at 3-4-2 and with a couple of different bounces or health issues, we're maybe at 4-3-2 or 5-3-1.

And that difference right now is the difference between picking 5th in the draft, or being tied for the final playoff spot in the division, with a game in-hand.

And the latter is pretty much where I thought they might be on their high-end.

I would certainly like to see a lot more out of the veteran talent at this point though.

yes, our vets and our goalie play has been suspect but we're also playing the 'weakest' teams in the division.

These next 2 weeks will be very telling. Hopefully everything starts clicking and they play like the 2019 offense, with the added benefit of Jacques Martins defense. Time will tell.

Get Fired or Flourish Fortnight for the team.

 

[duhmetreE]

You might not notice it but from an outside perspective it looks like as though once you get an idea in your head (i.e. "bad" coach or a "bad" player) it seems that ALL your posts become dedicated to this idea reaching a bias or agenda status. So much so that even unrelated events or factors become connected to the idea to the point where folks either choose to scroll over your posts (at best) or you start getting heavy pushback and derailed discussion.

yes. It's my opinion.

If my opinion changed like Quinn's lines, it would be emotion based/irrational. I think what I think for a reason. If my opinion changes, it will be over a period of time.

How is that an issue? Being consistent in my thoughts is bad? If you can debate/argue my points, great. That's why I'm here, for discussion. If you just attack my opinion/idea, it is NOT ME in the wrong.

 

[BBKers]

I think we will rise to the competition of the better teams. Usually the case. Cheers!

 

[gravey9]

The truth is, perception and results can be tricky things.

Panarin has often not resembled the player he was last year. Yet the numbers currently sit at a near 50 goal, 110 point pace.

Ditto for Kreider, and yet he now finds himself pacing at 36 goals.

Kakko has two goals, he easily could have four. There could be no noticeable differences in his actual play, but four goals would make for a very different conversation. Likewise, Lafreniere not getting a goal prior to his first was almost getting comical. If one or two of those goes in, him having 2 or 3 total goals changes the conversation about him significantly.

The point being, it's very fine lines we're working with right now.

Agreed, though not of it matters really. What matters is the sum of the parts being greater than the whole. If Panarin was pointless but the Rangers were undefeated we'd gladly take that.

Right now, the bigger issue is, the team looks like a bunch of puzzle pieces that more often than not, don't fit.

If Strome were more versatile Panarin and Kakko would have a better shot at working on the same line. If Chytil was in the lineup we'd likely have two lines working. The good news is that Laf hasn't looked terrible on any of the lines he's been on. He seems to find ways to fit in. But his issue has been more about withstanding the physical game, keeping his legs moving. At least from the eye test, whatever line he's on has tended to struggle maintaining a forecheck and cycle. But he's been pretty good in so many other areas. But yeah, this team is lacking cohesion and a lot of it has to do with guys not playing the same way. Panarin might have points but it's a problem when only Colin Blackwell has fit as the other winger. I think that has more to do with a lack of commitment or ability to simplify the style. Panarin has points, but team is weaker in sum than parts.

 

[kovazub94]

yes. It's my opinion.

If my opinion changed like Quinn's lines, it would be emotion based/irrational. I think what I think for a reason. If my opinion changes, it will be over a period of time.

How is that an issue? Being consistent in my thoughts is bad? If you can debate/argue my points, great. That's why I'm here, for discussion. If you just attack my opinion/idea, it is NOT ME in the wrong.

It's bad because it's literally in every post regardless of discussion. And often the reason why it's every post is because you try to connect issues to it that are not connected.

 

[IDvsEGO]

I think we will rise to the competition of the better teams. Usually the case. Cheers!

We don’t really get that luxury this year, unless we go on a tear against Boston, philly and the caps, we need to beat Jersey and the sabers repeatedly if we even want a winning record.

 

[kovazub94]

I mean the bigger knock on him was his defensive play, but that’s not really something I ever see him fixing.

If he's 60-70 point player then his defensive deficiencies are not much worse than average (or would be acceptable). Penalties are somewhat different and much harder to accept.

 

[True Blue]

yes, our vets and our goalie play has been suspect but we're also playing the 'weakest' teams in the division.

If the play has been suspect, then the caliber of your opponent does not really matter.