Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part LXX

[FIRE DRURY]

I agree. I think the Rangers can, and should give certain things a look --- within reason.

Obviously, it's great if those experiments work out. But I do hope fans keep somewhat fair and realistic expectations as well.

This year does provide some luxury to try things out, but I do think it's worth noting that the Rangers might not have the appetite to experiment to the point of lowering the potential value of a player as well.

I'll use ADA as an example, just because he's top of mind in this thread. You might have him get a look at LD. But if the Rangers are not comfortable with what they see, it might not be a prolonged experiement. And I say that because I can already see the "it was only two games it needs more time" type comments. Those comments won't necessarily be without merit, but they might not align with the Rangers preference.

You might have a situation where the Rangers would prefer to leave ADA on the rightside, have him bring what he does, rather than lower his value and get him out synch on the left side. That's particularly important if they pursue maximizing his trade value.

Not saying that's what is destined to happen, but it is worth keeping in mind.

As usual I can’t disagree with what you said. Here’s the wildcard though; what if ADA plays good on the left side?

If last season was not an anomaly and ADA can replicate that production at LD, is he still a candidate we likely end up moving?

I guess you have to see the results of that transition and what the pairings might actually be before making any firm decisions.

ADA-Trouba
Lindgren-Fox

or

Lindgren-Trouba
ADA-Fox

Maybe we’ll see both those pairings depending on the situation were in?

I don’t know what the answer is. I do know I love having Tony on the team and I’m hoping there’s a way to make it work. But, despite how I feel, ADA might still end up being the guy who improves the team the most in a key trade in the long run.

Same might actually apply with Chytil too.. It’s funny how asset management sometimes works out....

 

[SA16]

Management already seems to think he is a definite bottom six player and I am sure they are hoping for even more. Remember, everyone develops as a different pace.

Management is wrong. Management also thought Staal was a ~20 minute defenseman as recent as two seasons ago. They also thought Jack Johnson was worth signing.

 

[Edge]

As usual I can’t disagree with what you said. Here’s the wildcard though; what if ADA plays good on the left side?

If last season was not an anomaly and ADA can replicate that production at LD, is he still a candidate we likely end up moving?

I guess you have to see the results of that transition and what the pairings might actually be before making any firm decisions.

ADA-Trouba
Lindgren-Fox

or

Lindgren-Trouba
ADA-Fox

Maybe we’ll see both those pairings depending on the situation were in?

I don’t know what the answer is. I do know I love having Tony on the team and I’m hoping there’s a way to make it work. But, despite how I feel, ADA might still end up being the guy who improves the team the most in a key trade in the long run.

Same might actually apply with Chytil too.. It’s funny how asset management sometimes works out....

I think the Rangers would be thrilled if ADA works on the left side and develops chemistry with someone on the right. I think you might still have quite a few concerns about having an undersized defense and one that might need some balance tweaks, but it certainly would give an option.

Having said that, I don't think that's really the expectation of too many inside the organization right now --- and probably around the league. So while it's great if works out, my expectation is pretty modest there.

To your question about him replicating last season, yeah I think he would still be a very likely candidate to move --- especially if the Rangers still don't feel comfortable with that second line center spot. If anything, I think there's quite a bit of hope that he does replicate last season and that it solidies his value around the league. Currently, that value is a little hit or miss depending on who you talk to.

 

[Rongomania]

I think the best case scenario is K'Andre ends up with Tony. He would not be relied on to provide tons of offense and can focus on being that giant defensive presence while Tony does his thing.

K'Andre - Tony = Dream pairing

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

It seems obvious to me they're talking about Tony playing the left because they weren't able to trade him.

Publicly letting everyone know that "hey we may have 4 NHL RD but we're not selling one at a discount, so we're more than comfortable than playing one at LD."

Whether or not they're actually comfortable with it is a different story. My guess would be no

 

[IDvsEGO]

I think the best case scenario is K'Andre ends up with Tony. He would not be relied on to provide tons of offense and can focus on being that giant defensive presence while Tony does his thing.

K'Andre - Tony = Dream pairing

I feel like their styles of play wouldn't work well together.
I feel like the best pairing with K'Andre is Trouba.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

It seems obvious to me they're talking about Tony playing the left because they weren't able to trade him.

Publicly letting everyone know that "hey we may have 4 NHL RD but we're not selling one at a discount, so we're more than comfortable than playing one at LD."

Whether or not they're actually comfortable with it is a different story. My guess would be no

Capitals won a Stanley Cup with 2 RHDs, so did Chicago in 2015.

I think fans often overestimate the importance of having a LD play with a RD

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

Capitals won a Stanley Cup with 2 RHDs, so did Chicago in 2015.

I think fans often overestimate the importance of having a LD play with a RD

Sure, I think salary concerns are the biggest thing in play in this situation though

And it's not just fans, @Edge has been telling people for months the Rangers aren't keen on the idea at all

 

[Rongomania]

I feel like their styles of play wouldn't work well together.
I feel like the best pairing with K'Andre is Trouba.

Def would be safest to stick him to Trouba. Though, I disagree, because I believe Tony can develop his all-around game further.

I'd love to see Hajek stick with Trouba honestly, if Hajek AND Miller both work well on this team by the end of the season, we are moving in a really great direction.

 

[Edge]

Sure, I think salary concerns are the biggest thing in play in this situation though

And it's not just fans, @Edge has been telling people for months the Rangers aren't keen on the idea at all

A lot of teams really aren't crazy about the idea. There are always exceptions, but I think if you got 20 hockey people in room the vast majority would tell you it's really not something they try do.

Now, having said that, if ADA can pull it off, that's fantastic! Power to him, and LGR!

I just really hate to see people let down if that doesn't come to a fruition, or isn't something that gets long, extended looks.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

A lot of teams really aren't crazy about the idea. There are always exceptions, but I think if you got 20 hockey people in room the vast majority would tell you it's really not something they try do.

Now, having said that, if ADA can pull it off, that's fantastic! Power to him, and LGR!

I just really hate to see people let down if that doesn't come to a fruition, or isn't something that gets long, extended looks.

There are definitely limitations. When talking to Cuylle and Berard recently, I asked them about the challenges playing on their off-wing and they say it just takes a fraction of a second longer to make a play because it goes against your insticts. And that certainly applies to defensemen as well.

Having said that, there have been examples of teams who were very successful with a D-pairing that had either 2 RHDs or 2 LHDs. It's by no means something that instantly ruins your chances at winning

 

[Beer League Sniper]

I think the RHD issue is a little overblown.

Is it optimal to have 4 RHD on the roster? No, but we'll be fine. Tony was always going to get somewhat sheltered minutes at ES. Feed him top minutes on the PP and limit his DZ starts to take maximum advantage of his abilities.

Also, having two competent RHD on each PP unit is actually an asset, if that's the way the coaches decide to go.

 

[NYRFANMANI]

As usual I can’t disagree with what you said. Here’s the wildcard though; what if ADA plays good on the left side?

If last season was not an anomaly and ADA can replicate that production at LD, is he still a candidate we likely end up moving?

Ultimately the FO will look at the stock pile and if a young kid can at least attempt to mimic his offensive effectiveness, he's out.

I don't think the FO is as enamored with his grit and ability to get under the opponents skin as I am.

If they can replace him effectively, they will. I fear, he just too much of a headache.

 

[Edge]

There are definitely limitations. When talking to Cuylle and Berard recently, I asked them about the challenges playing on their off-wing and they say it just takes a fraction of a second longer to make a play because it goes against your insticts. And that certainly applies to defensemen as well.

Having said that, there have been examples of teams who were very successful with a D-pairing that had either 2 RHDs or 2 LHDs. It's by no means something that instantly ruins your chances at winning

I do think it's also a little easier for forwards because you're driving the play forward, rather than having the play come at you. That fraction of a second for a defenseman is the difference between being half a step behind a skater who is now bearing down on your goalie. Additionally, when you talk to coaches, one of the things they often reference is the space defensemen have to work with --- it's often a little tighter than a typical forward.

I think if we're looking at RHDs who have the possibility to play the right side, I'd almost say that Lundkvist and Schneider might be more intriguing candidates based on their strengths and styles.

Now, having said all that, the other challenge that ADA is going to have, at least from a roster building perspective, is that at some point he's going to require a higher salary for his peak earning years.

So when we talk about ADA being viewed by most as the prime candidate to be moved, it's partly a roster decision. But it's also due in part to the business side of things.

Five years from now we could be laughing about all of this as ADA plays his 500th game for the Rangers. But I do think he remains the most likely candidate to be moved.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

I do think it's also a little easier for forwards because you're driving the play forward, rather than having the play come at you. That fraction of a second for a defenseman is the difference between being half a step behind a skater who is now bearing down on your goalie. Additionally, when you talk to coaches, one of the things they often reference is the space defensemen have to work with --- it's often a little tighter than a typical forward.

I think if we're looking at RHDs who have the possibility to play the right side, I'd almost say that Lundkvist and Schneider might be more intriguing candidates based on their strengths and styles.

Now, having said all that, the other challenge that ADA is going to have, at least from a roster building perspective, is that at some point he's going to require a higher salary for his peak earning years.

So when we talk about ADA being viewed by most as the prime candidate to be moved, it's partly a roster decision. But it's also due in part to the business side of things.

Five years from now we could be laughing about all of this as ADA plays his 500th game for the Rangers. But I do think he remains the most likely candidate to be moved.

Girardi in 2014 was the most likely candidate to be moved for a lot of fans, and they decided to instead sign him long-term. DeAngelo might be here 5 years from now and who knows... Maybe he's that one guy everyone is looking for at that stage.

It's crazy how we have a logjam at RHD now when it's widely considered a weakness for most teams

 

[Edge]

I think the RHD issue is a little overblown.

Is it optimal to have 4 RHD on the roster? No, but we'll be fine. Tony was always going to get somewhat sheltered minutes at ES. Feed him top minutes on the PP and limit his DZ starts to take maximum advantage of his abilities.

Also, having two competent RHD on each PP unit is actually an asset, if that's the way the coaches decide to go.

I think it also depends on what type of RHD you have on the roster.

I don't see the Rangers being too comfortable with a roster that includes 5'11, 195 ADA; 5'11, 190 Lundkvist; and 5'11, 190 pound Fox --- and that's part of the roster balance equation that I've mentioned. You kind of heard aspects of that in the JD video from yesterday.

So some of the consideration is going to be given to styles and other factors as well.

I think imagining a blue line with ADA, Lundkvist, Fox looks sexy in theory. I just don't know how much of an appetite there will be for the reality of that defensive corps. That's probably a bit of a tall ask for the front office.

 

[Thirty One]

I think it also depends on what type of RHD you have on the roster.

I don't see the Rangers being too comfortable with a roster that includes 5'11, 195 ADA; 5'11, 190 Lundkvist; and 5'11, 190 pound Fox --- and that's part of the roster balance equation that I've mentioned. You kind of heard aspects of that in the JD video from yesterday.

So some of the consideration is going to be given to styles and other factors as well.

I think imagining a blue line with ADA, Lundkvist, Fox looks sexy in theory. I just don't know how much of an appetite there will be for the reality of that defensive corps. That's probably a bit of a tall ask for the front office.

 

[True Blue]

That's the thing. I think we can contend. Call me a crazy optimist, but I think we're definitely playoff contenders as it stands now.

I think that they are contenders for the playoffs as far as being a bubble team goes. That is as things stand now. If some of the younger players take very big steps forward and the vets continue their play, then things could change.

 

[Beer League Sniper]

I think it also depends on what type of RHD you have on the roster.

I don't see the Rangers being too comfortable with a roster that includes 5'11, 195 ADA; 5'11, 190 Lundkvist; and 5'11, 190 pound Fox --- and that's part of the roster balance equation that I've mentioned. You kind of heard aspects of that in the JD video from yesterday.

So some of the consideration is going to be given to styles and other factors as well.

I think imagining a blue line with ADA, Lundkvist, Fox looks sexy in theory. I just don't know how much of an appetite there will be for the reality of that defensive corps. That's probably a bit of a tall ask for the front office.

I do agree with everything you've written. I guess I just feel we have the luxury of another season with this roster. I'm not expecting the team to be a contender, so I feel like we can go into this season with a less than optimal roster and let things shake out. We've discussed our issues at 2C and D ad nauseum. I'm not expecting them to get fixed this season. I do expect the picture to keep getting clearer, though.

 

[Edge]

I think that they are contenders for the playoffs as far as being a bubble team goes. That is as things stand now. If some of the younger players take very big steps forward and the vets continue their play, then things could change.

I would say right now, the internal expectation is that this team should, can and will challenge for the playoffs.

Not that the roster is without some glaring flaws, or that there won't be many bumps in the road. But they feel they can make a playoff push if players from last year keep doing their thing, and there is progress from Lafreniere, Kakko, etc.

Or, to put it another way, the Rangers expect to be making their next draft pick in the late teens or early 20s in 2021.

 

[Edge]

I do agree with everything you've written. I guess I just feel we have the luxury of another season with this roster. I'm not expecting the team to be a contender, so I feel like we can go into this season with a less than optimal roster and let things shake out. We've discussed our issues at 2C and D ad nauseum. I'm not expecting them to get fixed this season. I do expect the picture to keep getting clearer, though.

Oh yeah, I definitely think there isn't a pressing sense of urgency within the organization. Right now a lot of teams are being conservative with their approach to the upcoming season and, depending on how things shake out, you could see backlog of activity heading into the 2021/22 season.

To that last point, the Rangers will head into next off-season with some pretty interesting options and opportunities based on contracts coming off, the deals they struck with their RFAs, and the potential market around the league.

 

[SA16]

I think it is likely optimal to have 4 LHD and 2 RHD.

 

[LokiDog]

I’m with @Edge regarding the makeup of the D being more important than the actual handedness. Of course we’d like to have a perfectly balanced 3/3 split on handedness, but plenty of teams are successful without it. Chicago and Pittsburgh and LA all had 4/2 splits if I remember correctly. Vegas is a team that does deep every year and has predominantly lefties. Dallas was just in the finals with Heiskanen, Lindell, Sekera, Oleksiak and Hanley all being left handed.

But the problem is that ADA, Fox and Lundkvist are all under 6 ft and under 200lbs. If one of them was an Oleksiak, or a Parayko, I don’t think the management would be as concerned with the defensive personnel. Lindgren is also only 6 ft 200lb. He plays tough, but he’s still on the undersized side. Oleksiak, Lindell, Klingberg, Heiskanen and Sekera are all 6ft or better. Hanley was their injury fill in, but their normal guys would have been John’s (6’4) or Fedun (6’1).

Size isn’t everything, obviously, and a talented defense is more important than a hulking one, but balance is necessary. At some point it can’t be Trouba as the only body capable of handling a Jamie Benn sized guy in front of the net shift after shift and you can’t hang all your hopes on Miller.

If Lundkvist was our most NHL ready prospect and he was a 6’3 205lb version of the same exact player, I don’t think we’d be as concerned. While each of Fox, ADA and Nils are different players, they’re all too similar to one another. If we had Trouba, Parayko, Fox, DeAngelo as our righties, I’m sure we could find room for all four of them. I don’t think you can have three under 6ft puck movers who aren’t particularly physical or strong.

 

[True Blue]

Or, to put it another way, the Rangers expect to be making their next draft pick in the late teens or early 20s in 2021.

That's fair. Considering how many teams miss the playoffs, late teens is not all that far off from bubble status.

 

[True Blue]

I’m with @Edge regarding the makeup of the D being more important than the actual handedness. Of course we’d like to have a perfectly balanced 3/3 split on handedness, but plenty of teams are successful without it. Chicago and Pittsburgh and LA all had 4/2 splits if I remember correctly. Vegas is a team that does deep every year and has predominantly lefties. Dallas was just in the finals with Heiskanen, Lindell, Sekera, Oleksiak and Hanley all being left handed.

I agree. Which is why I think there is a version of a future where the right side is manned by Trouba, only one of Fox of Lundqvist, and Schneider. But there there is more than enough time to evaluate