Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part LIV

[Ola]

With Virtanen, I think it’s important to remember that expectations have been waaay of since the get go. He is Vancouvers equivalent to Lias in a way.

Virtanen only had 160 pts in 190 games in the WHL for a reason. I remember Adam Tambellini outscoring him by a wide margin in Jakes D+1 year.

He has always been a big project, but instead he came in with tremendous expectations and he has been misrepresented since, everything is of. He comes in and does something well, it’s not enough. If he doesn’t do something well, it’s attributed to something else than the real cause because it’s a unquestionable fact that he is good enough.

It’s just a bad spiral that we have seen so many times before. It took 3.5 years to get to NY and another 3 years to put it together. Virtanen got 1 year. They are 100% similar talents, with the difference that the WHL is weaker than the NCAA and Virts stats being inflated from playing against poor opponents. Virtanen was 0+1 for a WJC.

If we draft Kreider top 3 and get him to NY his D+1 year, and then follows 3-4 years of enormous disappointments — what do we get?

That is how many prospects are developed. It’s a joke. I think there is much to gain for someone that can come in and correctly evaluate these situations and, especially, a path to “recovery” because without any doubt that it what it is all about.

 

[Raspewtin]

was Virtanen the player that Canadian news paper made the front page of when Canada got laughed out of the 2016* WJCs?

 

[Kocur Dill]

With Virtanen, I think it’s important to remember that expectations have been waaay of since the get go. He is Vancouvers equivalent to Lias in a way.

Virtanen only had 160 pts in 190 games in the WHL for a reason. I remember Adam Tambellini outscoring him by a wide margin in Jakes D+1 year.

He has always been a big project, but instead he came in with tremendous expectations and he has been misrepresented since, everything is of. He comes in and does something well, it’s not enough. If he doesn’t do something well, it’s attributed to something else than the real cause because it’s a unquestionable fact that he is good enough.

It’s just a bad spiral that we have seen so many times before. It took 3.5 years to get to NY and another 3 years to put it together. Virtanen got 1 year. They are 100% similar talents, with the difference that the WHL is weaker than the NCAA and Virts stats being inflated from playing against poor opponents. Virtanen was 0+1 for a WJC.

If we draft Kreider top 3 and get him to NY his D+1 year, and then follows 3-4 years of enormous disappointments — what do we get?

That is how many prospects are developed. It’s a joke. I think there is much to gain for someone that can come in and correctly evaluate these situations and, especially, a path to “recovery” because without any doubt that it what it is all about.

Sounds like the mistake we made with Smith.

All the signs are there, yet, somehow it will be different this time because it's a change of scenery. Next thing you know he's the whipping post, HFB NYR is looking for a buy-out, and the main boards VC fans are gloating with I-told-you-so's.

 

[Edge]

Pronman's on record saying he thinks there's a drop at 9 and then another at 24.

And in theory, if another team shares that view, there's your potential window to move from 22 to 16/17/19. Of course assuming the Rangers feel that stategy makes sense.

If they feel there's no difference between 10 and 24, there might not be any incentive for them to move up.

So a take like Pronman's can cut both ways.

 

[Edge]

Sounds like the mistake we made with Smith.

All the signs are there, yet, somehow it will be different this time because it's a change of scenery. Next thing you know he's the whipping post, HFB NYR is looking for a buy-out, and the main boards VC fans are gloating with I-told-you-so's.

Whoa, I think we gotta pump the breaks a little there.

Virtnanen is 24, not 28, and I don't think anyone is willing to give up a ton of assets and sign him to a long-term deal right off the bat.

I think we're criss-crossing some different contextual situations here.

 

[aufheben]

was Virtanen the player that Canadian news paper made the front page of when Canada got laughed out of the 2016* WJCs?

Yes. Poor kid.

At the 2016 IIHF World Junior Championshipsin Helsinki, Virtanen had one assist in five games and led Canada in penalty minutes at ten. Canada was eliminated by the host Finland in the quarterfinal.

 

[Kocur Dill]

Whoa, I think we gotta pump the breaks a little there.

Virtnanen is 24, not 28, and I don't think anyone is willing to give up a ton of assets and sign him to a long-term deal right off the bat.

I think we're criss-crossing some different contextual situations here.

I'm seeing people throwing around Pick #22 like it's nothing. If we traded away Brady Skjei, who I'm not overly fond of, and the eventual return amounted into a one for one of Jake Virtanen. I'd be rather disappointed.

What I was getting at, and Ola pointed out was the expectations of a player like him. I'm fine with reclamation valuation asset trading, but, Benning's comments give pause to handing over anything of significance. A first? Nope. Lemieux plus? Nope.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I'm seeing people throwing around Pick #22 like it's nothing. If we traded away Brady Skjei, who I'm not overly fond of, and the eventual return amounted into a one for one of Jake Virtanen. I'd be rather disappointed.

What I was getting at, and Ola pointed out was the expectations of a player like him. I'm fine with reclamation valuation asset trading, but, Benning's comments give pause to handing over anything of significance. A first? Nope. Lemieux plus? Nope.

Who has done that?

 

[Edge]

I'm seeing people throwing around Pick #22 like it's nothing. If we traded away Brady Skjei, who I'm not overly fond of, and the eventual return amounted into a one for one of Jake Virtanen. I'd be rather disappointed.

What I was getting at, and Ola pointed out was the expectations of a player like him. I'm fine with reclamation valuation asset trading, but, Benning's comments give pause to handing over anything of significance. A first? Nope. Lemieux plus? Nope.

I would be against trading the 22nd pick, and I think most people on here probably are as well.

But I don't think a package with Lemieux is completely out of line at all.

 

[Ghost of jas]

With Virtanen, I think it’s important to remember that expectations have been waaay of since the get go. He is Vancouvers equivalent to Lias in a way.

Virtanen only had 160 pts in 190 games in the WHL for a reason. I remember Adam Tambellini outscoring him by a wide margin in Jakes D+1 year.

He has always been a big project, but instead he came in with tremendous expectations and he has been misrepresented since, everything is of. He comes in and does something well, it’s not enough. If he doesn’t do something well, it’s attributed to something else than the real cause because it’s a unquestionable fact that he is good enough.

It’s just a bad spiral that we have seen so many times before. It took 3.5 years to get to NY and another 3 years to put it together. Virtanen got 1 year. They are 100% similar talents, with the difference that the WHL is weaker than the NCAA and Virts stats being inflated from playing against poor opponents. Virtanen was 0+1 for a WJC.

If we draft Kreider top 3 and get him to NY his D+1 year, and then follows 3-4 years of enormous disappointments — what do we get?

That is how many prospects are developed. It’s a joke. I think there is much to gain for someone that can come in and correctly evaluate these situations and, especially, a path to “recovery” because without any doubt that it what it is all about.

There you have it...one disappointment for another.

 

[egelband]

For a number of reasons, yes.

The two biggest being potential trade partners and to have a clearer understanding of which skaters are likely going to be within their range --- with an understanding that the latter has a fair degree of overlap with the former.

Also removes the temptation for the Rangers to pick him

 

[Edge]

There you have it...one disappointment for another.

Though in fairness, one is a disappointment at the NHL level, but an NHL player nonetheless.

The other still has to prove he can stick at the NHL level. In theory he could surpass Virtanen, but I kind of feel like that's the cost considering Virtanen is the semi-known quantity of the deal.

 

[aufheben]

With Virtanen, I think it’s important to remember that expectations have been waaay of since the get go. He is Vancouvers equivalent to Lias in a way.

Virtanen only had 160 pts in 190 games in the WHL for a reason. I remember Adam Tambellini outscoring him by a wide margin in Jakes D+1 year.

He has always been a big project, but instead he came in with tremendous expectations and he has been misrepresented since, everything is of. He comes in and does something well, it’s not enough. If he doesn’t do something well, it’s attributed to something else than the real cause because it’s a unquestionable fact that he is good enough.

It’s just a bad spiral that we have seen so many times before. It took 3.5 years to get to NY and another 3 years to put it together. Virtanen got 1 year. They are 100% similar talents, with the difference that the WHL is weaker than the NCAA and Virts stats being inflated from playing against poor opponents. Virtanen was 0+1 for a WJC.

If we draft Kreider top 3 and get him to NY his D+1 year, and then follows 3-4 years of enormous disappointments — what do we get?

That is how many prospects are developed. It’s a joke. I think there is much to gain for someone that can come in and correctly evaluate these situations and, especially, a path to “recovery” because without any doubt that it what it is all about.

Lias couldn’t even stick it in the NHL. Virtanen is in more of a Ryan Strome situation.

 

[egelband]

I’m having a really hard time seeing what we would trade that 22nd overall pick for. I much rather have a talented young center than some of the names I’m hearing.

Yeah. I would almost prefer trading for a young on-the-cusp prospect who is maybe blocked somewhere. A la Gauthier. But maybe a bit better. Get a guy who’s nearly ready and hopefully expansion draft exempt.

 

[n8]

Lias couldn’t even stick it in the NHL. Virtanen is in more of a Ryan Strome situation.

Lias is also 21. He might need 3 years of development which he's too pouty to put in. I feel like there is some metaphor for throwing his silver medal away here but it escapes me. Maybe silver reminds him of a failed WJHC and he'd rather run away from his failures than use them to remind him how far he has to go and how hard he has to work to get there.

 

[bobbop]

sorry broski but grabs is done. He is not the same player he was here since his injury. He is not worth the roster spot on a young hungry team at his contract quite frankly. I bet the Yotes would love to off load him somewhere. Would love Dvorak here though. He’s a damn good center. Defensively responsible, good contract, right age, has some untapped offense in his game. If Chytil busts out this year and emerges as the 2C many think he will you can drop DVO down to third line in a more defensive role and not miss a beat. He would be a great trade target. But the Yotes are thin at center and I have no idea what their ask would be. Probably a lot. I d do Buch plus 22 plus a D prospect for him for sure. But I doubt that gets it done

Actually he's not. He played exceptionally well in the playoffs and at the right price he is a 4th line bargain. The Coyotes will be looking to move him because he's not Tocchet's kind of guy.

 

[egelband]

And I'm curious as to what he may be thinking. I mentioned Lemieux as someone who I strongly suspect would be of interest for them. I don't think it's the Rangers first choice, but with Barron coming in, it may not be an automatic "no" either.

Lemieux is interesting. There’s so much going on there. There’s some hype. Some production. Lots of “intangibles”. Great lineage. Grit. Skill. But I wonder if the sum of the parts is more than a fourth line grinder. Fans - myself included- love that kind of player but also if I’m JG, maybe I can sell high. Possibly JG’s toughest call.

 

[Edge]

Lemieux is interesting. There’s so much going on there. There’s some hype. Some production. Lots of “intangibles”. Great lineage. Grit. Skill. But I wonder if the sum of the parts is more than a fourth line grinder. Fans - myself included- love that kind of player but also if I’m JG, maybe I can sell high. Possibly JG’s toughest call.

I've always said, players who fit that description are easy to fall in love with, and easier to over-project.

Not saying that will be Lemieux, but right now, at 24, he looks like a fourth line winger. And that very well could be what he is three years from now.

 

[egelband]

I've always said, players who fit that description are easy to fall in love with, and easier to over-project.

Not saying that will be Lemieux, but right now, at 24, he looks like a fourth line winger. And that very well could be what he is three years from now.

Do you think someone would flip a mid-first-rounder for him? I’d probably do that. Probably just hold him if not, though.

 

[Edge]

Do you think someone would flip a mid-first-rounder for him? I’d probably do that. Probably just hold him if not, though.

Doubtful. Equivalent value is probably a second rounder at this point, or another player in his age range who is still trying to put the pieces together.

 

[aufheben]

Lias is also 21. He might need 3 years of development which he's too pouty to put in. I feel like there is some metaphor for throwing his silver medal away here but it escapes me. Maybe silver reminds him of a failed WJHC and he'd rather run away from his failures than use them to remind him how far he has to go and how hard he has to work to get there.

I just don’t think he’s good enough for the NHL, and, if he is, it probably won’t be with the Rangers anyway. I’m officially over it. This was bound to happen at least once during any rebuild.

 

[Trxjw]

Virtanen is very much in the mold of a guy like Strome or JT Miller. Someone with pedigree that you hope can find better footing with a new team and maybe reach more of the potential that got him taken in the 1st round. I wouldn't deal the 22nd pick straight across for him but he's the sort of polarizing player I could see some team valuing with a late 1st while others don't want to touch him at all. Size, speed, and skill is almost always a package teams are willing to take a chance on.

 

[Kovalev27]

If Lemieux is in your top 9 your top 9 isn’t good enough.

he’s a solid 4LW though but needs to be paid as such. Let’s see if that happens

 

[charliemurphy]

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E V O L U T I O N


Bearded Buch looks like he spent the lockdown in a cave in Russia wrestling bears and discovering himself. Even 6 months earlier he looked much younger and less formidable. Maybe he has a big coming out party next year lol

#therussianbutcher

 

[QJL]

Virtanen is very much in the mold of a guy like Strome or JT Miller. Someone with pedigree that you hope can find better footing with a new team and maybe reach more of the potential that got him taken in the 1st round. I wouldn't deal the 22nd pick straight across for him but he's the sort of polarizing player I could see some team valuing with a late 1st while others don't want to touch him at all. Size, speed, and skill is almost always a package teams are willing to take a chance on.

The skill gap between Strome or Miller and Virtanen is immense and always has been. Strome and Miller are playmakers and Virtanen is a north south bull. The only thing they all have in common is being first round picks.

I’m off the Virtanen train unless he comes on the super cheap.