Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part LII

[Thirty One]

Haha yes

I am confused by it. We had Arniel s an associate. He supposedly has more than normal assistants, but I’m not sure what that means.

As far as I can tell, it's just a way to justify paying one of your assistant coaches more than the others.

 

[rangers1314]

Wasn't he fired because of alcohol abuse?

I believe so yes.

I don’t think it was ever said what the reason was, but it was reported what the reason wasn’t...so it was process of elimination to figure it was alcohol related.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

I believe so yes.

I don’t think it was ever said what the reason was, but it was reported what the reason wasn’t...so it was process of elimination to figure it was alcohol related.

Jim Montgomery on Stars dismissal, road to sobriety: 'That firing was deserved'

 

[Machinehead]

Thats not coaching. Thats a players mental make up and DNA.

You can't teach someone to play physically like Lemiuex.

They either want to play that way, or not.

For me, I don't think that CK does that enough and I KNOW Buchnevich doesn't.

Thats half your top 4 wingers that play what I would call semi-soft.

My hope is that with age, both Chytil and Kakko develop a PITA mentality. I think we have heard that Lafreniere can be pretty prick'ish.

I'd feel more comfortable if 60-70% of the team played with a more aggressive attitude

You can't make players be physical but you absolutely have to teach them to forecheck and cycle. We never do that. What little we do usually comes from Kreider, so not having him just makes the problem worse.

So again, it depends on how you convince of grit. If it means getting in altercations and throwing hits, I don't know what to tell you. Objectively, the Rangers do that more than any team in the NHL; look at the numbers.

 

[Machinehead]

Carolina had us slammed up against the wall for three games. Who on Carolina stands out as a tough player?

Ever since the 2019 Cup, everyone carries on about how big and scary the Blues are. The 2019 Blues were 24th in the NHL in hits.

That right there tells you there's a disconnect between what we think "grit" is and what teams like the Blues do that actually works.

Spoiler alert: we're not doing the good one. Another spoiler alert: assuming Fast walks, Kreider is the only guy on the roster who does the good one at all.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Carolina had us slammed up against the wall for three games. Who on Carolina stands out as a tough player?

Ever since the 2019 Cup, everyone carries on about how big and scary the Blues are. The 2019 Blues were 24th in the NHL in hits.

That right there tells you there's a disconnect between what we think "grit" is and what teams like the Blues do that actually works.

Spoiler alert: we're not doing the good one. Another spoiler alert: assuming Fast walks, Kreider is the only guy on the roster who does the good one at all.

Yup. I think Man strength Kakko, Laf and Chytil will grow into doing these things well too, but we need more, even if they keep Fast.

Though I don't even think our issue against the walls was really a factor with the top lines. Our bottom lines and the DeAngelo-Staal pairing got toasted against Carolina. The 3rd line especially is where we need that presence, along with at least 1 more body up

 

[pld459666]

You can't make players be physical but you absolutely have to teach them to forecheck and cycle. We never do that. What little we do usually comes from Kreider, so not having him just makes the problem worse.

So again, it depends on how you convince of grit. If it means getting in altercations and throwing hits, I don't know what to tell you. Objectively, the Rangers do that more than any team in the NHL; look at the numbers.

I don't see a physical team when I watch these guys play.

I see a team that likes to score on the rush, and that's fine.

I do not see a team that can grind out goals and thats part of what I am talking about.

Too many guys willing to play wall flower and not enough guys willing to get their hand dirty.

If altercations happen, so be it. Thats not the goal.

I know the numbers dispute what im saying, but the Canes walked us out in three.

I doubt that there's a team that wouldnt have swept us in three.

 

[EdJovanovski]

Carolina had us slammed up against the wall for three games. Who on Carolina stands out as a tough player?

Ever since the 2019 Cup, everyone carries on about how big and scary the Blues are. The 2019 Blues were 24th in the NHL in hits.

That right there tells you there's a disconnect between what we think "grit" is and what teams like the Blues do that actually works.

Spoiler alert: we're not doing the good one. Another spoiler alert: assuming Fast walks, Kreider is the only guy on the roster who does the good one at all.

Playing a heavy game doesn’t necessarily mean hitting everything that moves, their hitting numbers are low because they’re a good possession team. It’s correlation, not causation. Analytics nerds try making the claim that hitting has a negative impact because teams with more hits are usually the losing team. Obviously, because you hit to separate players from the puck and attempt to gain possession. If your team has possession you’re not hitting.

 

[eco's bones]

You can't make players be physical but you absolutely have to teach them to forecheck and cycle. We never do that. What little we do usually comes from Kreider, so not having him just makes the problem worse.

So again, it depends on how you convince of grit. If it means getting in altercations and throwing hits, I don't know what to tell you. Objectively, the Rangers do that more than any team in the NHL; look at the numbers.

I think part of the point being made is being made over on the draft thread--as in what guys should we draft? Joey Bones for some time has been advocating for instance for Dylan Holloway who skates really well and likes to play a physical game---others have been talking up Mark Greig who is more than a bit of a pain in the ass to play against and I brought up Oskar Magnusson who is another pain in the ass to play against. You don't have to teach something that comes naturally at least to certain individuals and IMO it helps to get these type of players that are always stirring pots. Some players just don't want to do it or do it consistently enough. It's not unusual either for someone who's always been the 'star' on whatever teams he's played for to think or say 'I'm not doing that. I'm a goal scorer!'--which is also to say that sometimes that's the difference between someone being a bottom 6'er in the NHL or a top 6 forward in the AHL who never gets a legit NHL shot. This by the way I've been arguing that Gettinger with his size needs to do more of--just use that size and be a regular on the penalty kill and defensively responsible.

 

[LokiDog]

Carolina had us slammed up against the wall for three games. Who on Carolina stands out as a tough player?

Ever since the 2019 Cup, everyone carries on about how big and scary the Blues are. The 2019 Blues were 24th in the NHL in hits.

That right there tells you there's a disconnect between what we think "grit" is and what teams like the Blues do that actually works.

Spoiler alert: we're not doing the good one. Another spoiler alert: assuming Fast walks, Kreider is the only guy on the roster who does the good one at all.

Carolina has more grit than you think. Svech is very physical for a top offensive player. Aho and Necas aren’t soft either. Staal, McGinn, Martinook, Hamilton, Slavin, Fleury, Edmundson, Foegele, Neidereitter all play physical. Even Skjei set the tone in game one with his biggest hit ever. Carolina also showed up better conditioned and ready than us.

 

[LokiDog]

Playing a heavy game doesn’t necessarily mean hitting everything that moves, their hitting numbers are low because they’re a good possession team. It’s correlation, not causation. Analytics nerds try making the claim that hitting has a negative impact because teams with more hits are usually the losing team. Obviously, because you hit to separate players from the puck and attempt to gain possession. If your team has possession you’re not hitting.

Exactly. Ryan O’Reilly was credited with 16 hits this year. 31 last year. He is still a grittier top line player than anyone we have.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Exactly. Ryan O’Reilly was credited with 16 hits this year. 31 last year. He is still a grittier top line player than anyone we have.

I think this is the point @Machinehead was making.

 

[Avery16]

How do we get from our likely position of #22 up to #9 so we can draft Lundell?

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

How do we get from our likely position of #22 up to #9 so we can draft Lundell?

22+Georgiev+Strome to Buffalo for 8

 

[TopShelf86]

How do we get from our likely position of #22 up to #9 so we can draft Lundell?

Gonna likely cost the Car pick and a Top prospect of VK, Miller, or Nils

Georgie or Strome doesnt do it..imo

 

[NYSPORTS]

Lundell had better be a home run for those obsessing over him.

 

[leetch99]

6.5.

Your definition of Grit is not what we're discussing here.

LOL...oh...so you have it defined that well . I'd be interested in hearing what your version is . I'm likely not the only one ....

 

[Fitzy]

I viewed NYR Jagr as a "physical" player because he was so strong when protecting the puck. Guys like Frolov who don't always need to be in a hurry because they are so hard to knock over. I think that's the kind of physicality that matters in playoff games, and it's supposed to end up a strength of Lafreniere and Kakko's games.

 

[LokiDog]

I viewed NYR Jagr as a "physical" player because he was so strong when protecting the puck. Guys like Frolov who don't always need to be in a hurry because they are so hard to knock over. I think that's the kind of physicality that matters in playoff games, and it's supposed to end up a strength of Lafreniere and Kakko's games.

That is part of it, but it’s also a compete level thing. Jagr had it. Frolov didn’t really. It’s not about being a player who hits a lot, but a player who engages in the puck battles and doesn’t give up on the puck but refuses to let the possession die. It can be learned, but I don’t think it’s a coaching thing and rather something that a few guys bring to a team and it becomes contagious. Filling in our bottom six with high motor guys who consistently play in the trenches would be wise. It’s something that becomes a team personality. We could stand to add a couple forwards and a defenseman who bring this consistently, on top of the few guys we have.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

LOL...oh...so you have it defined that well . I'd be interested in hearing what your version is . I'm likely not the only one ....

Read through the thread. We've been discussing it for a few pages now.

Hint: It's not post whistle BS and hitting people.

 

[bl02]

Gonna likely cost the Car pick and a Top prospect of VK, Miller, or Nils

Georgie or Strome doesnt do it..imo

You are correct so I would pass. We heard this all last year with many thinking it would be easy to trade up into the top 10. Yes we all wanted Zegras (he's a terrific talent) but the cost is astronomical to trade into the top 10. Georgie, Strome or even a Buch probably won't cut it.
Teams are gonna want our 23rd and a top prospect like Miller or Nils.

 

[LokiDog]

Read through the thread. We've been discussing it for a few pages now.

Hint: It's not post whistle BS and hitting people.

This is accurate. It does encompass standing up for your teammate or goalie after the whistle sometimes, but that’s not as important as the ability to play in the trenches to extend puck possession. Those “little things” that create a turnover on the forecheck or extend a possession against a tired D turn into scoring opportunities. They also keep the puck out of your own end. Likewise, that backcheck and puck pursuit is valuable when the puck does go the other way. O’Reilly is a great example because he isn’t credited with lots of hits but is undeniably not a soft player. He scores in the dirty areas. He plays Selke level defense. Over the past two playoffs he has 34 points in 35 games, including 25 even strength points.

 

[leetch99]

We do need more grit. The only truly “gritty” players on this team are Lindgren, Trouba and Lemieux. Fast to an extent but he’s likely gone. DeAngelo is more of a mix it up type but not really gritty in the course of play.

Krug, for instance is much “grittier” than a Fox or DeAngelo while still being an undersized puck mover. MacKinnon is “grittier” than Panarin or Zib, for a superstar offensive player. In my opinion, that’s largely because their teams have cultivated a top-to-bottom compete level and willingness to go out of that comfort zone into more physical play when the chips are down. We need that. We get that by adding a Boone Jenner or Sam Bennett on the third line, a Matt Calvert on the fourth. If you’re really lucky you land a Tkachuk, Wilson or even Landeskog or Benn for the top six. Another Lindgren type on D. Or a Gudas type. If you can find a balance where you have one guy who is looking to engage and play in the trenches on the ice virtually at all times because there’s 2-3 on defense and one at least 3/4 of your lines, it’s contagious. It changes the way the team plays.

We landed a bunch of talent recently. Laf, Kakko, Krav, Chytil all have a lot of talent. Panarin, Zib and even Strome have a lot of skill. Buch has skill. Everyone wants it to work where the guys we have just fit and we can slot them around until we find the magic combo because we have enough high caliber pieces. Of course that’s ideal. It’s also unrealistic. There isn’t room for all of these skill guys, in my opinion. 6-7 of the 8? Sure. But we’re currently looking unbalanced and the task now isn’t to continue acquiring talent but to start finding the right mix and determining which pieces are here for the long haul and which pieces should be shifted to bring other flavors into the mix. And capitalizing on their value; not moving them too early and regretting it when they breakout nor too late when the value diminishes.

How do you determine that with a guy like Chytil? He could break out any time in the next 1-3 years and become a 50-60 point top six staple. He could also keep teasing that potential and never reach it. Right now he’s still viewed as a young guy with high potential who has good value. In 2 years, if he hasn’t broken out, he’s probably looked at as a reclamation project on his way to becoming a bust. As good of a piece as Chytil is to have in your barn, is he NEEDED with all the other young talent you have? If you could turn him into Jenner or Bennett+ would that better benefit the team? Same assessments need to be made on guys like Buch and Kravstov.

Panarin, Zibanejad (vets), Kakko and Laf (kids) are the obvious MAIN forwards going forward. Kreider... if we knew we would end up with Laf we never would have given him the deal he got. It’s not bad to have him but we’re also sort of “stuck” with him as well. I think all of Buch, Krav, Chytil, Howden, Gauthier, etc. need to be assessed as pieces that can be translated into different pieces that bring a different element to the roster. Not all of them. You obviously like the group you have and don’t want massive turnover so I’m not talking about gutting the group. I think this is the time that’s really pivotal where you have to make some tough decisions on which one or two of that group goes to bring in your heart and soul, physical warrior, leadership types (obviously of commensurate value).

Again, I’m not suggesting we dramatically alter the group we have in place. And moving any of them would sting. I’ve come to love American, bearded Buch, have high hopes for Chytil and think Kravstov has tantalizing skill. But once we add Laf we have a 90+ point Panarin, a beast two-way 40 goal scorer Mika and the recent #1 and 2 OA picks. I think making a tough decision about 1 or 2 of these other guys to bring in guys who play a totally different style would inject something very needed into this lineup. We have skill and potential everywhere. RHD is stacked with more on the way. Wings are stacked with more on the way. LHD pipeline is beautiful. Very few, if any pieces in the pipeline promise to bring snarl and guts to the lineup though. Could you convert Chytil + Howden/Gauthier into Jenner + Anderson from Columbus and have a much tougher team to play against that still has a ton of offensive punch? Just musings.

For example, Anderson had an awful last season but has shown he can score. If you could go:

Panarin/Strome/Anderson
Kreider/Zib/Kakko
Laf/Jenner/Buch

You have Anderson for a physical guy to grind for pucks and be net front with Strome and Bread’s established chemistry. Kakko gets the benefit of playing top six with Kreider and Zib’s established chemistry and they’re both somewhat physical, responsible players. Buch is the type who follows the lead of a Jenner and increases his physicality and Laf, who is already somewhat greasy, learns alongside a tough as nails vet like Jenner. Moreover, that Laf/Jenner/Buch line has second line talent. That’s a deeper, tougher forward lineup. Lafreniere eventually slides up to Kreider’s spot.

That is a great post Loki. Hopefully some will grasp the concept of what we need along the lines of grit...over an 80 game schedule and not here and there . Jenner is a dandy ....The Tkachuk brothers IMO kind of overdue things in the grit regard ...I think it will catch up with them .

 

[leetch99]

Read through the thread. We've been discussing it for a few pages now.

Hint: It's not post whistle BS and hitting people.

Hint ...who said a thing about post whistle ? I just said that Kreider and Gauthier if they played bigger more often we would have a lot less things to worry about ...maybe not those exact words but very similar . Plus...I am not sure how you get grit on a roster without hitting people ? I played hockey for 30 years and that is baffling . I am well aware that hitting people is not running them through the end of the rink...or running goalies which are about the only opposition Kreider has ever hit hard .

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Hint ...who said a thing about post whistle ? I just said that Kreider and Gauthier if they played bigger more often we would have a lot less things to worry about ...maybe not those exact words but very similar . Plus...I am not sure how you get grit on a roster without hitting people ? I played hockey for 30 years and that is baffling . I am well aware that hitting people is not running them through the end of the rink...or running goalies which are about the only opposition Kreider has ever hit hard .

Yeah you're not following this thread then.

Most of us are talking about effectively working the boards, winning the ensuing battles and causing havoc in high traffic areas. Those are things that Kreider does well.

Don't care if he doesn't run through someone to do those things, those hits are nice and all, but hardly impact a game as significantly as what I posted above.