Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part LII

[pld459666]

Also, Lafreniere, Chytil and Kakko is a line with an average age young enough to play in the WJC. Not sure I would put those 3 together

Don't think I'd have a problem with it.

CK-MZ-PB
AP-RS-WB
Al-FC-KK
BL-BH/LA/MB-JG

WB = Warm Body

Those 1st two lines are going to provide a great deal of shelter for the 3rd line

 

[GAGLine]

I’d even add. If we can get the 8-12th pick and get a center we love, that’s what we would have been targeting at 22 anyway. So I’d be fine with Strome and 22 for 8.

Strome + 22 doesn't sniff the 8th overall pick.

 

[Gardner McKay]

Strome + 22 doesn't sniff the 8th overall pick.

While I agree that the value isn't entirely there, I don't think it is as far away as you're suggesting.

 

[pld459666]

While I agree that the value isn't entirely there, I don't think it is as far away as you're suggesting.

The way people talk about Strome here, that package may net you a late 2nd rounder

 

[Trxjw]

You never really know with player value. Nobody thought Kapanen would be worth 15th overall and more a month ago.

We all see Strome as a passenger to Panarin but there might be a team out there that sees him as a RH center with pedigree who is finally realizing his potential. Not saying I agree with that but it's possible. We're also kind of spoiled for top-six forwards who are RH shots. There are some teams around the league who could use one.

 

[mas0764]

Strome + 22 doesn't sniff the 8th overall pick.

The premise was if Strome can bring back something like 8-12. I said I would even add to that. If it's not, then it's not. I'm presuming the deal is on the table.

You may be right. Still, at some point Strome is worth something. He's a 26 year old coming off a 70 point pace season. He has his flaws but some team is gonna see what he did with Panarin and think, "Hey, he can put up 70 points with our star too." The Rangers' problem isn't that Strome isn't a valuable player, it's that he's not what they need moving forward.

If the Rangers were in desperate need of points producers Strome is a good piece to keep around, but they aren't. They have Zibanejad, Panarin, Kakko, Lafreniere, maybe more, in total a bunch of guys who are gonna hit that 70+ point range. What the Rangers need is a true center, at least a 2C, but given Zibanejad's injury history and age (relative to Kakko/Lafreniere/Kravtsov/Chytil), what they need is a guy who can probably be a 1C someday if surrounded by top wings (once Zibanejad ages out, it's likely that Kakko et al will still be in their mid-20's). Besides also being on the older side (again, relative to Kakko/Lafreniere), Strome is too one-dimensional, he is a guy who can put up points when next to an elite player but he's not a complete center, he's not a good defender, and he's not a line driver if he's on his own (on say, a third line without Panarin).

If Strome was on a cheap 4 year deal right now, there is no harm keeping him, letting him continue to solidify his trade value for another season or two, and then maybe making a move. But the Rangers are nearing a decision point on him: Give him a long term expensive deal (including, if he demands it, possibly a NTC), let him walk in free agency, or trade him immediately while he still has RFA control that is worth trading for.

I highly doubt you can string him along with short term cheap deals. He is gonna want more (especially after bouncing around, he's gonna want a permanent home and a pay day), and some team is likely to give him more.

In any case, I'm not saying liquidate Strome for nothing. Even having him for one season and then letting him walk might be worth more than trading him with 22 to get up to say.... 20.

The trade scenario where moving him makes sense is if it's for a player in the draft you love. Ie, the Rangers love Lundell allegedly. If he slips to 14, that's a scenario where we have to be trying to move him, or something, to get up that far. If Lundell, Mercer and Jarvis go 11-12-13, and we are now looking at guys like Holloway, Zary, Gunler, and Amirov, well.... that's when the trade doesn't make sense anymore. There is a dividing line between these prospects and it seems like common consensus is that Lundell and to a lesser extent Mercer and Jarvis are good bets as quality 2nd liners someday. It seems like once you get to Holloway tier, you are more likely looking at quality third liners.

 

[mas0764]

I’m really not interested in trading roster players for futures. Roster players, at this stage of things, should be traded to adjust the roster mixture. I mean, isn’t this what the mantra of everyone who clamors first BPA in every draft is? If you end up with extra players at one position, you trade them for players at a position you’re not as strong in. Granted, the RD issue didn’t come from drafts, but from trades. It’s the same thing though. RD is the position of strength for them to trade from.

I don’t have any problem holding onto DeAngelo for one more season, but if, as we suspect, the Rangers see Trouba and Fox as the top two, then they should be exploring trades now to do what I mentioned above. If they do keep him for another season, I’d like to see long-term experiments with him on the left.

I think once the Rangers have a quality young center in the mix (in addition to whatever Chytil turns out to be), you are right, but until then, I think we are still finalizing asset acquisition. I don't think "sell off" is the right way to phrase it, but I think they should still be considering selling current roster players who have value "now," but do not fit as well into roster slots around Lafreniere/Kakko/Panarin/Zibanejad.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

Don't think I'd have a problem with it.

CK-MZ-PB
AP-RS-WB
Al-FC-KK
BL-BH/LA/MB-JG

WB = Warm Body

Those 1st two lines are going to provide a great deal of shelter for the 3rd line

It would be great if they start like that and Chytil's play move him up to the second line and moves Strome to 3C. The same with Kakko forcing the WB down.

 

[mas0764]

Saw a lot of discussion around DeAngelo in this thread.

If we really need to make a decision as to which RFA to pay and which to trade, its DeAngelo over Strome every day of the week and twice on sunday. It is so much harder to find a RHD that can put up 60 points and drive possession than it is to find almost every other position with the exception of Center. And I dont really consider Strome a Center, more of just someone who can pass off as a Center but isn’t great at the position - certainly not with the defensive demands of it. And on top of that DeAngelo is 24 entering his prime when he is really starting to figure out how to light it up at the NHL level.

The problem is that DeAngelo will absolutely bring back more in a trade. However, I’d rather settle for a “lesser” return trading Strome if we are not getting a blue chip piece for Tony. I am talking names like the Tkachuk brothers, Barkov (yes i know he is nearing FA anyway), DeBrusk, etc. So if youre not getting a significant return then I am happy to take the return for Strome. Buchnevich almost landed us the 8th overall pick at last years draft according to @Edge ... maybe Strome can get you in the 8-12 range this year so you can draft a Center and then sign a stopgap short term while keeping DeAngelo.

For sure. My input into this thread was that if you can deal DeAngelo for the second or third overall pick, those guys are #1 center types, and that's a no-brainer.

But I was listening to Blueshirt Breakaway podcast and those guys were like, "Tony doesn't fit on this roster and with all the off-ice stuff, would you take the 15th overall pick for him today? We think yes."

I think those guys are out of their minds. You have no idea what the 15th pick is. Maybe, MAYBE, on draft day, if Lundell is there at 15, and again, if the Rangers have Lundell as a top 5 player in the draft. But even that I think is terrible value. Without even knowing who is available? Hell no. Or if the likely scenario occurs that there is no 1/2C prospect available? Again, HELL NO.

Then again in my brief listening to the show, its pretty apparent that those guys are motivated a little by their political leanings against Tony.

But otherwise, yeah, Tony is a 24 year old 60 point pace producer on defense. That's a rarity even if his defense leaves something to be desired. He has flaws, so sitting here saying he's worth as much as Hedman/Pietrangelo because he scored points in their tier, no, that's just not reflective of his value to the Rangers at this point. But he's certainly worth more than being traded for a low-end second line or third line forward.

I'd trade him for a guy who is likely to be a 1C someday (like Byfield or Stutzle). I might consider for a player like Holtz or Rossi from this draft, or Zegras from last draft, but that's kinda all. Otherwise I'm trying to find a spot here for him along with Lundkvist.

 

[mas0764]

That was a different time. Like look at the trades around the Sedins. Those guys were consensus top 4 players as well. Arguable #1 & 2 back then. (even though Stefan seemed like the consensus #1)

First Vancouver trades Bryan McCabe for the #4OA - he had promise but was just a 21 pt, -11 player back then. That would be like Noah Hanafin getting the #4OA today. Or if we are generous, Provorov, Nurse, or Ristolainen. Or even ADA.
Then #1OA was traded from Tampa to Vancouver for the #4OA + 3rd + 3rd WTF, not happening even in an EA title.
The Vancouver flipped the #1OA to Atlanta for #2OA + 3rd. This one was just weird because they could have just taken a Sedin and let Atlanta take Stefan but Atlanta was willing to give Vancouver a 3rd just for the honor of selecting first or something. It might have made sense if Atlanta held the draft gun to Vancouver's head and said "we're taking a Sedin at #2 unless you give US something" so really bizarre in my opinion. I do remember the Sedin's being like "we're twins. we will play together or not at all" so there was some soft pressure to not draft only one of them but still. weird trade.

Of course despite all these weirdly terrible trades by today's standards, Neil Smith had to be a man ahead of the times and trade:
#4OA for Sundstrom, Cloutier, a 1st (which turned out to be the #8OA in 2000) + 3rd

The draft has become substantially more valuable in the last 2 decades I think.

I don't have the numbers but it sure as hell seems like it's way more likely to get at least a second liner out of a top 10 pick than ever before. The number of busts seems fewer and the speed at which these guys are ready for the NHL, on average, seems much greater.

 

[mas0764]

I like the Zegras ideas but I'd really like to get Turcotte on this team

What's the Zegras idea? I don't think there's any realistic way to acquire him at the moment.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

I’d even add. If we can get the 8-12th pick and get a center we love, that’s what we would have been targeting at 22 anyway. So I’d be fine with Strome and 22 for 8.

But that doesn’t do it. Strome still needs to be signed by that team.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

What's the Zegras idea? I don't think there's any realistic way to acquire him at the moment.

There's not

He's arguably the best prospect in hockey, Anaheim isn't moving him. Like ever

 

[Rongomania]

Do people really still believe Zibanejad isn't a true no. 1 center?

Serious question, as I am totally f*ckin' perplexed about this..

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Do people really still believe Zibanejad isn't a true no. 1 center?

Serious question, as I am totally f*ckin' perplexed about this..

The "Mika isn't a 1C" crew: He needs to put up more points > Mika puts up 70+ > Let's see if he can repeat it > Mika puts up 70+ again in 25 fewer games > Let's see if he can do this consistently

Some people are just never satisfied

 

[mas0764]

Do people really still believe Zibanejad isn't a true no. 1 center?

Serious question, as I am totally f*ckin' perplexed about this..

I don't think anyone is seriously arguing that at this point, after this season.

I think the bigger concern with Zibanejad is that he's approaching 28 years old and he has some injury/concussion history. Meanwhile Kakko and Lafreniere are 19, Kravtsov is 20, Chytil is 21.

A very brief glance at those age discrepancies tells you that it would be wonderful to have another top-6 center in their age range. Worth trading current assets to obtain, frankly.

Then you have a "now" core revolving around Panarin/Zibanejad/Kreider and a future core that is complete with a center to grow with Kakko and Lafreniere.

 

[GAGLine]

While I agree that the value isn't entirely there, I don't think it is as far away as you're suggesting.

The way people talk about Strome here, that package may net you a late 2nd rounder

You may be right. Still, at some point Strome is worth something. He's a 26 year old coming off a 70 point pace season. He has his flaws but some team is gonna see what he did with Panarin and think, "Hey, he can put up 70 points with our star too." The Rangers' problem isn't that Strome isn't a valuable player, it's that he's not what they need moving forward.

Strome definitely has value, but I think he has more value to us than he does to other teams. If Buffalo's pick is in play, I think they would be more likely to trade it outright for a better/younger player, than they would be to trade it for Strome and the 22nd. Strome was a good player for us last year, but there are legitimate concerns as to whether he can do it again without Panarin. If we don't want to give him a long term deal, you can bet other teams don't either, and he is arbitration eligible and only 1 year from UFA. Buffalo isn't giving up the 8th overall pick for 1 year of Strome and the 22nd pick.

 

[Rongomania]

The "Mika isn't a 1C" crew: He needs to put up more points > Mika puts up 70+ > Let's see if he can repeat it > Mika puts up 70+ again in 25 fewer games > Let's see if he can do this consistently

Some people are just never satisfied

It is incredibly silly.

The dude was going to put up 50 playing like 65(?) games.

Unreal.

 

[LiveLongandProspal]

How do we obviously know that? From rumors?

Obviously

 

[JimmyG89]

The "Mika isn't a 1C" crew: He needs to put up more points > Mika puts up 70+ > Let's see if he can repeat it > Mika puts up 70+ again in 25 fewer games > Let's see if he can do this consistently

Some people are just never satisfied

At this rate, he'll be labelled a 1C when he begins his decline and is no longer a 1C. Can't stand people that can't see what their eyes and the stats tell them.

 

[Rongomania]

I don't think anyone is seriously arguing that at this point, after this season.

I think the bigger concern with Zibanejad is that he's approaching 28 years old and he has some injury/concussion history. Meanwhile Kakko and Lafreniere are 19, Kravtsov is 20, Chytil is 21.

A very brief glance at those age discrepancies tells you that it would be wonderful to have another top-6 center in their age range. Worth trading current assets to obtain, frankly.

Then you have a "now" core revolving around Panarin/Zibanejad/Kreider and a future core that is complete with a center to grow with Kakko and Lafreniere.

That's the thing. He's perfect for the 'now' core AND to usher in the next core which we have here growing.

literally zero issues with this guy.

The next 1C has a few years to emerge and we certainly have the pieces to acquire one.

 

[mas0764]

Strome definitely has value, but I think he has more value to us than he does to other teams. If Buffalo's pick is in play, I think they would be more likely to trade it outright for a better/younger player, than they would be to trade it for Strome and the 22nd. Strome was a good player for us last year, but there are legitimate concerns as to whether he can do it again without Panarin. If we don't want to give him a long term deal, you can bet other teams don't either, and he is arbitration eligible and only 1 year from UFA. Buffalo isn't giving up the 8th overall pick for 1 year of Strome and the 22nd pick.

I don't agree that he has more value to us than to other teams, nor do I agree that if we don't want to give him a long term deal that other teams won't.

Buffalo may not give up the 8th pick for one year of control, that very well may be true, but I also bet they'd love to throw a long term deal at him. A team like Buffalo is probably desperate to build at least a playoff team around Eichel so they can try to keep him. Presuming that if they believe Eichel and Strome could play together on a line, and perhaps believing that Strome could elevate Eichel's point totals like he has with Panarin, I could easily see the Sabres having that kind of player be high priority.

The Rangers have other players that Panarin can excel with. What the Rangers need isn't a wingman to make their only star happy; they need a complete 1/2 center type for the future.

 

[kovazub94]

You never really know with player value. Nobody thought Kapanen would be worth 15th overall and more a month ago.

We all see Strome as a passenger to Panarin but there might be a team out there that sees him as a RH center with pedigree who is finally realizing his potential. Not saying I agree with that but it's possible. We're also kind of spoiled for top-six forwards who are RH shots. There are some teams around the league who could use one.

This. Need to look at specific facts and circumstances consistent with who'd be a trading partner.

 

[LiveLongandProspal]

Do we even know if we want to commit to Chytil at C? Quinn moved him to the wing and he seemed to play better on the wing than down the middle.

 

[mas0764]

That's the thing. He's perfect for the 'now' core AND to usher in the next core which we have here growing.

literally zero issues with this guy.

The next 1C has a few years to emerge and we certainly have the pieces to acquire one.

He may be perfect to "usher in" the next core but when Kakko is 25 and is in his prime and ready to be the main piece carrying the team to Cups, Zibanejad will be 33. Will he be the right player to help carry the team with the next core? That I am not sure about.

I think Panarin projects to stay a top-liner into his 30s moreso than Zibanejad.

Obviously there is time to resolve this issue but we are also at a crossroads where we have the young assets right now to swing for the fences. In 2-3 years, we will no longer have such a surplus of picks, young ELC talent, prospects in the pipeline, and affordable/desirable roster players that we don't need long term (Buch/Strome) as they will have moved on in free agency.

Again I have no issues with Zibanejad.

I just want to future proof. And this offseason may be one of our best chances to do that, what with the extra first we have and guys who have value that can be moved (ie Buch and Strome).