Speculation: Roster Building Thread LXXXIX: Going 11-3 to close out this crazy year should do it!

[Larrys13]

Lundell is a mid 1st round pick - something that was on a table for Buch years ago when his own game had a few question marks.

At this point you don't think the asking price should be higher to also include a 1st round pick coming back in addition to a prospect?

Here’s one
MN- Strome
LA- Dumba
NYR- Vilardi
Add to LA if needed

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Here’s one
MN- Strome
LA- Dumba
NYR- Vilardi
Add to LA if needed

Let's see if Minnesota still has Dumba after the expansion draft

 

[kovazub94]

Kravtsov was alright in the WJC, but absolutely awful at the u20 4N when he played center for 6 games. I don't think a 12-game sample size 2.5 years ago where, at best, half those games he had a good performance against kids his own age, is a reason to pencil him in at center.

As of right now I'm a lot more open to at some point after Kravtsov is more acclimated to the NHL to give him a try at center. It really has nothing to do with Kravtsov prior experience at center (I always had to shake my head when his limited showing at WJC was used for support).

The key for me to have a softer (let's try and see) stand is the defensive awareness that Kravtsov has showed so far.

 

[True Blue]

He doesn't have to be a top line center.

I wouldn't dismiss the value of adding a utilitarian skill set at the C position even if it comes in a package of a guy who ends up being a 35-45 point player. There are a bunch of other things in his game which are appealing and don't necessarily pop out at you on the stat sheet, but end up contributing to positive stuff all over the ice.

I'm not even a huge Lundell guy. I can't shake the though of Anisimov where everything is just a step too slow at this level to keep him from being a really, really good player but the floor still ends up resulting in a pretty solid player and someone who can contribute in a top 9.

I did not say that he has to be a top line center. I only said that, just speaking for me, I would need more than Lundell for someone like Buch.

I think that his future is probably like Lars Ellers.

 

[haveandare]

I would like someone with a little more quickness and defense at center. What I took away as negative from the 4 games against the Devil's was their speed/quickness at center (Hughes & Nico) was superior to ours. I'm not saying they are currently better players but they could be eventually.

Our centers are producing, I just have concern if that will translate to tough playoff series against better teams.

What I'm getting at is with our talent at wing would we better served with more complete 200 foot centers with maybe less offense but that bring other elements in the future.

I think of Mika as being pretty fast and good defensively. Strome less so in both categories.

 

[kovazub94]

Here’s one
MN- Strome
LA- Dumba
NYR- Vilardi
Add to LA if needed

Were the Rangers high on Vilardi in his draft year?

And why add to LA? If anything the Rangers should get more for Strome than a not-full-time NHL prospect.

 

[True Blue]

The team had him ranked 5th last year, they clearly don’t have as many reservations you think

And no one is trading a sure fire 1C for Buch.

Getting a center who the team likes a lot, thinks he can contribute quickly and is the same age range as the rest of core is as good as it gets

I know where they had him ranked. That was nothing to do with if they believe that he is a sure fire 1C.

No one is talking about trading a sure fire 1C for Buch. Who does that even look like? We are talking about prospects. And not one of the names bantered is a sure fire 1C. As such, be it Newhook, Lundell, Holloway, etc. I need more in the package if I am trading a sure fire top line, two way playing RW in the prime of his career.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

As of right now I'm a lot more open to at some point after Kravtsov is more acclimated to the NHL to give him a try at center. It really has nothing to do with Kravtsov prior experience at center (I always had to shake my head when his limited showing at WJC was used for support).

The key for me to have a softer (let's try and see) stand is the defensive awareness that Kravtsov has showed so far.

Yeah. I have no problem with trying Kravtsov at center for the right reasons. Some junior level games 2.5 years ago where he sucked half the time isn't the right reason

 

[True Blue]

I'd love a nasty 2 way center, but those guys don't really exist.

The Kadris of the world is few and far between. The closest thing in terms of what is being discussed is Holloway. Maybe if you grab a Raty in this year's draft, that is what he develops into.

 

[True Blue]

Lundell is a mid 1st round pick - something that was on a table for Buch years ago when his own game had a few question marks.

At this point you don't think the asking price should be higher to also include a 1st round pick coming back in addition to a prospect?

Should be at least a first round pick and said prospect.

Buchnevich was also almost involved in the Zegras trade, which makes it a top-10 pick.

 

[True Blue]

The question is how far away is Lundell? If he could be in the NHL next year, I don't really see Florida making that move.

Almost feel like the TDL would've been the time to make a move. Give Barkov a top line winger and make a real run at the cup.

There are actually two questions. How far away is Lundell and how far away is his offensive game at the NHL level?

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

Buch is also a 26 yo young vet 2 way player that is a PPG player in the NHL this year. Lundell hasn't played a single game in the NHL.

Who cares if he hasn’t played a game?

You’re trading an expensive luxury on wing for a cost controlled young center who at worst is going to be a middle 6 center.

Getting someone like Lundell for Buchnevich is about as good as the return could get

 

[mas0764]

He doesn't have to be a top line center.

I wouldn't dismiss the value of adding a utilitarian skill set at the C position even if it comes in a package of a guy who ends up being a 35-45 point player. There are a bunch of other things in his game which are appealing and don't necessarily pop out at you on the stat sheet, but end up contributing to positive stuff all over the ice.

I'm not even a huge Lundell guy. I can't shake the though of Anisimov where everything is just a step too slow at this level to keep him from being a really, really good player but the floor still ends up resulting in a pretty solid player and someone who can contribute in a top 9.

I think he's better than that.

 

[mas0764]

The team had him ranked 5th last year, they clearly don’t have as many reservations you think

And no one is trading a sure fire 1C for Buch.

Getting a center who the team likes a lot, thinks he can contribute quickly and is the same age range as the rest of core is as good as it gets

Yep. 5th in a draft where the four in front of him are Lafreniere, Byfield, Stutzle, and probably like Drysdale or Raymond. That shows the company he was in, in the team's opinion.

That means they probably aren't projecting him as just a middle sixer. I would tend to agree with them. I am not saying he's an 80 point player like Byfield or Stutzle might be but I think he's definitely more than a 40 point guy too. I think his mostly likely outcome is high 50's to high 60's every year with an excellent all around game to accompany.

That's either a superb, elite second line center or a solid, complimentary first line center when playing with elite talent wingers (which we have already in spades).

What else are you expecting to get from Buch? The guys above this tier are the guys like Byfield, Stutzle, and Zegras and that's just not happening for him straight up.

You can win cups, multiple, with Panarin - Lundell (as I projected) - Kakko and Lafreniere - Chytil - Kravtsov as your top 6.

And don't forget that you still may be able to either keep Zibanejad now (since you didn't trade for Eichel) or parlay him into an elite asset as well. Kreider is still floating around as an overpaid but effective third liner. That's a championship level of talent in your forwards.

 

[True Blue]

What else are you expecting to get from Buch? The guys above this tier are the guys like Byfield, Stutzle, and Zegras and that's just not happening for him straight up.

That is a bit of a disingenuous way of looking at it. Just because they had him there, that does not make for a universal ranking.

 

[kovazub94]

Should be at least a first round pick and said prospect.

Buchnevich was also almost involved in the Zegras trade, which makes it a top-10 pick.

Yeah, this was in my original post.

 

[mas0764]

I did not say that he has to be a top line center. I only said that, just speaking for me, I would need more than Lundell for someone like Buch.

I think that his future is probably like Lars Ellers.

I think that's a pretty big undersell. I think more like Lindholm or Larkin.

 

[mas0764]

That is a bit of a disingenuous way of looking at it. Just because they had him there, that does not make for a universal ranking.

There is no universal ranking.

Just saying the Rangers have to go by what they think of him and that's clearly more the range they have him in as opposed to company like Seth Jarvis or Dawson Mercer.

If you agreed that he was on par with the Alex Holtz's and Lucas Raymond's of the world then I think it's not reasonable that you'd be expecting much more than that for Buch.

On the other hand if you think he's career 30 point 3rd line center Lars Eller then I can see why you would have no interest in dealing Buch for him.

 

[mas0764]

Should be at least a first round pick and said prospect.

Buchnevich was also almost involved in the Zegras trade, which makes it a top-10 pick.

But that's where the Rangers have Lundell. Right in the middle of top-10 value.

Given Buch's RFA status, I think the control means more for Florida (they can guarantee they are bringing him into the fold long term, essentially) than it does for the Rangers (who instead as Edge has hinted probably see a long term contract with him as a potential obstruction and albatross).

I just don't quite see the value for the Rangers specifically in retaining him, and you have to strike while the iron is hot. He's not going to be a needle-moving piece for THIS team because it has similar talents in abundance.

Again, though, I suspect your position on this may be influenced by the fact that you think Lundell's most likely outcome is this player:

009-10	20	STL	NHL	7	2	0	2	2	4	1	1	0	0	0	0	0	8	25.0	14	76	10:49	9	10	47.4	1	8	1	2
2010-11	21	MTL	NHL	77	7	10	17	-4	48	7	0	0	2	10	0	0	79	8.9	171	858	11:08	183	248	42.5	22	85	24	25
2011-12	22	MTL	NHL	79	16	12	28	-5	66	12	2	2	2	10	1	1	129	12.4	260	1210	15:19	319	366	46.6	55	72	42	31
2012-13	23	MTL	NHL	46	8	22	30	8	45	7	1	0	1	18	4	0	84	9.5	159	682	14:50	267	275	49.3	33	86	23	19
2013-14	24	MTL	NHL	77	12	14	26	-15	68	9	2	1	3	12	1	1	137	8.8	252	1229	15:58	521	458	53.2	58	130	30	25
2014-15	25	MTL	NHL	77	15	12	27	-6	42	14	1	0	7	9	1	2	150	10.0	243	1193	15:30	405	374	52.0	37	76	29	30
2015-16	26	MTL	NHL	79	13	13	26	-13	28	11	1	1	2	13	0	0	149	8.7	275	1205	15:15	207	202	50.6	36	111	46	25
2016-17	27	WSH	NHL	81	12	13	25	15	36	11	0	1	2	12	1	0	115	10.4	225	1126	13:54	416	467	47.1	30	71	31	32
2017-18	28	WSH	NHL	81	18	20	38	-6	38	15	3	0	2	17	3	0	161	11.2	299	1239	15:18	471	485	49.3	69	71	39	47
2018-19	29	WSH	NHL	81	13	23	36	-1	37	12	0	1	1	18	3	2	163	8.0	274	1339	16:32	543	566	49.0	47	69	59	63
2019-20	30	WSH	NHL	69	16	23	39	3	48	13	2	1	1	18	4	1	151	10.6	271	1174	17:01	536	497	51.9	44	59	44	41
2020

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I wouldn't trade Buch for that either.

 

[True Blue]

I think that's a pretty big undersell. I think more like Lindholm or Larkin.

We shall see. Neither one of us is in a position to be sure. We are both going with gut feelings.

On the other hand if you think he's career 30 point 3rd line center Lars Eller then I can see why you would have no interest in dealing Buch for him.

Ellers could be where he winds up. Again, there ARE legit questions about him. I also thin that he could be better. I do not see him as a legit 1C in the future. So yeah, my ask for any of the prospects that we have talked about would be said prospects +.

 

[True Blue]

Again, though, I suspect your position on this may be influenced by the fact that you think Lundell's most likely outcome is this player:

009-10	20	STL	NHL	7	2	0	2	2	4	1	1	0	0	0	0	0	8	25.0	14	76	10:49	9	10	47.4	1	8	1	2
2010-11	21	MTL	NHL	77	7	10	17	-4	48	7	0	0	2	10	0	0	79	8.9	171	858	11:08	183	248	42.5	22	85	24	25
2011-12	22	MTL	NHL	79	16	12	28	-5	66	12	2	2	2	10	1	1	129	12.4	260	1210	15:19	319	366	46.6	55	72	42	31
2012-13	23	MTL	NHL	46	8	22	30	8	45	7	1	0	1	18	4	0	84	9.5	159	682	14:50	267	275	49.3	33	86	23	19
2013-14	24	MTL	NHL	77	12	14	26	-15	68	9	2	1	3	12	1	1	137	8.8	252	1229	15:58	521	458	53.2	58	130	30	25
2014-15	25	MTL	NHL	77	15	12	27	-6	42	14	1	0	7	9	1	2	150	10.0	243	1193	15:30	405	374	52.0	37	76	29	30
2015-16	26	MTL	NHL	79	13	13	26	-13	28	11	1	1	2	13	0	0	149	8.7	275	1205	15:15	207	202	50.6	36	111	46	25
2016-17	27	WSH	NHL	81	12	13	25	15	36	11	0	1	2	12	1	0	115	10.4	225	1126	13:54	416	467	47.1	30	71	31	32
2017-18	28	WSH	NHL	81	18	20	38	-6	38	15	3	0	2	17	3	0	161	11.2	299	1239	15:18	471	485	49.3	69	71	39	47
2018-19	29	WSH	NHL	81	13	23	36	-1	37	12	0	1	1	18	3	2	163	8.0	274	1339	16:32	543	566	49.0	47	69	59	63
2019-20	30	WSH	NHL	69	16	23	39	3	48	13	2	1	1	18	4	1	151	10.6	271	1174	17:01	536	497	51.9	44	59	44	41
2020

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

It absolutely plays a factor. But let's go with that he becomes more. Let's say he is a mid 50ish two way 2C. I still would not want to deal what Buch is today for that. Or said differently, not that alone. If w are taking a chance on a player that hasn't played a second in the NHL, then the return has to be more.

 

[Richard Banger]

One of the best 2-way centers of this generation? Lol what a low bar to reach.

You mean the most overrated center of this generation lmao.

 

[Richard Banger]

And also the greatest American born player of all time and one of the greatest defenseman of all time, let's please not forget that.

I’m talking strictly centers. My point being you don’t need the best centers to win it all

 

[East Coast Bias]

Florida is going to be in the same spot as we are. They're not going to trade a top prospect on an ELC for a guy due a big raise.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

I’m talking strictly centers. My point being you don’t need the best centers to win it all

and my point is you don’t need the best centers when you have those other two things, which we don’t have.