Speculation: Roster Building Thread LXXXII: Stepping up in a Perfect Storm?

[Tob]

I'm one of the worst offenders tbh but I'm now clearer on what I don't like and do like about Quinn. Still believe the forwards will need a new voice and coach to help them take the next step with a system that supports them.

 

[True Blue]

Huh? I did the opposite. Our 1OA draft pick, ostensibly the most skilled player on the team (he’s second because we have Panarin), should be on the PP in the position that most effectively utilizes his skills.

So Panarin's position?

You really do enjoy the ad absurdum argument. I have seen zero indications that Laf is unhappy. He doesn’t need a safe space. He needs to be put into situations that will ultimately allow him to become the cornerstone of the franchise.

Stating that the need to keep their prized possessions happy implies a level of unhappiness. Otherwise state it?

What doesn’t square with me is that, unlike me, you actually think Laf has been good. If he’s been as good and creative as you think, doesn’t it make sense for him to be on the PP? It makes sense for him to be there from every angle.

What baffles me is how you ignore the great plays that he has made. What does not square with me is how you cannot explain why he and his linemates on ice shooting percentage is so comically low. Especially when compared to the amount of high opportunity shots that are generated when he is on the ice and what the expected goal totals are.

 

[True Blue]

The Russian bots were less forceful and defensive in defending Vladimir Putin in the Panarin thread than True Blue is defending everything Quinn does. We can't criticize his dump and chase system without being called heretics.

Oh, you are still here? Funny I thought you would still be chasing the posts where you gave Granato credit for Miller's development last year or the ones where you pointed out Fox already being elite at the time of the trade.

Maybe I would actually not have to defend Quinn if he were not being blamed for everything from the bubonic plaque to why this morning's toast was burnt.

 

[Tob]

Oh, you are still here? Funny I thought you would still be chasing the posts where you gave Granato credit for Miller's development last year or the ones where you pointed out Fox already being elite at the time of the trade.

Maybe I would actually not have to defend Quinn if he were not being blamed for everything from the bubonic plaque to why this morning's toast was burnt.

yes im still around

 

[Tob]

You f***ing guys made this place unbearable. Seems within a month all my favorite long time posters to have a normal discussion with are either completely gone or reduced their posting to a minimum.

thirty one leaving has been tough on all of us

 

[Fitzy]

The stakes for our conversations on here are rock bottom. They have no impact on real life.

So it's unclear to me why people get so worked up in these discussions. Take it a little less seriously.

 

[True Blue]

yes im still around

Funny thought the search for the posts that proved your bs would have kept you busy for a while.

 

[True Blue]

The stakes for our conversations on here are rock bottom. They have no impact on real life.

So it's unclear to me why people get so worked up in these discussions. Take it a little less seriously.

Agreed but there are some things that are hard to defend. Miller being developed in Wisconsin is just the latest incarnation.

 

[gravey9]

I think the jury is still out on Quinn but what I don't understand is....

If you think Quinn's main job is to develop the kids. And you agree that development takes time, both mentally and physically. Then patience is required. If you think Laf and Kakko and Chytil and everyone else just need to hit the ground running, then there's a lot to be disappointed about. But I think it's unfair pressure to put on these kids.

The one major difference I see between 18 and 19 year olds making an immediate impact and those that take more time? Skating speed. Kids like Stutzle and to some extend Jack Hughes and K'Andre have a leg up because they have more ability to patch up a mistake but they also have enough speed to create space on their own even.

The downside to that speed is that it can become a crutch and some very fast players never bear down and learn the game positionally.

But without that game-breaking speed, you have to really figure out how to find and create space for yourself. Laf and Kakko are very talented but neither are blazing skaters. And on top of that, 18/19 year old kids don't have the man-strength yet to win all the battles they need to win. As a result, there's more development they need to do to figure out the NHL Game. Kravtsov is in the same boat. Buch and Zib were in that boat.

Furthermore, these young wingers man... when you're a young center coming into the league you have more responsibility but the nature of the position is, you cannot stop moving your feet. But when you're playing wing there's a lot more get into a spot and wait. And if you don't have a lightning fast first step and you're thinking a bit too much -- it's just a hard transition. And it's hard to watch.

As for Laf not being on PP1... I would argue he has too much Juniors in his game and he defers too much right now and so he's not nearly as effective as he will be. They can let him work through it I suppose, but also making him earn it is just as good of an idea. Mixed in with Laf thinking a bit too much are the occasional moment where he doesn't complete his plays. And when you're a winger on the PP a good chunk of your job is retrieving the puck in the corners and keeping pucks from getting pass him on the wall and helping the team get set up. And I think he's been very so-so at that.

 

[Tob]

Funny thought the search for the posts that proved your bs would have kept you busy for a while.

Miller was extremely hyped and this board had the highest of expectations for him. I'm not sure why you don't accept that as the basis for our assertion that Miller's phenomenal play thus far has been a product of his growth in his 2 years since the draft and only partial credit should go to Martin and Quinn's development up until this point since K'andre was great almost from the start of the season once he got over the nerves. We're talking about development and progress here. How much of his great play and development 2 weeks into his Rangers career do you really want to credit Quinn with? The longer he succeeds at the NHL level and keep improving, the more developmental credit will go to Quinn and Martin just like Lindgren is now a great success story for this staff.

 

[Tob]

I think the jury is still out on Quinn but what I don't understand is....

If you think Quinn's main job is to develop the kids. And you agree that development takes time, both mentally and physically. Then patience is required. If you think Laf and Kakko and Chytil and everyone else just need to hit the ground running, then there's a lot to be disappointed about. But I think it's unfair pressure to put on these kids.

The one major difference I see between 18 and 19 year olds making an immediate impact and those that take more time? Skating speed. Kids like Stutzle and to some extend Jack Hughes and K'Andre have a leg up because they have more ability to patch up a mistake but they also have enough speed to create space on their own even.

The downside to that speed is that it can become a crutch and some very fast players never bear down and learn the game positionally.

But without that game-breaking speed, you have to really figure out how to find and create space for yourself. Laf and Kakko are very talented but neither are blazing skaters. And on top of that, 18/19 year old kids don't have the man-strength yet to win all the battles they need to win. As a result, there's more development they need to do to figure out the NHL Game. Kravtsov is in the same boat. Buch and Zib were in that boat.

Furthermore, these young wingers man... when you're a young center coming into the league you have more responsibility but the nature of the position is, you cannot stop moving your feet. But when you're playing wing there's a lot more get into a spot and wait. And if you don't have a lightning fast first step and you're thinking a bit too much -- it's just a hard transition. And it's hard to watch.

As for Laf not being on PP1... I would argue he has too much Juniors in his game and he defers too much right now and so he's not nearly as effective as he will be. They can let him work through it I suppose, but also making him earn it is just as good of an idea. Mixed in with Laf thinking a bit too much are the occasional moment where he doesn't complete his plays. And when you're a winger on the PP a good chunk of your job is retrieving the puck in the corners and keeping pucks from getting pass him on the wall and helping the team get set up. And I think he's been very so-so at that.

Ya I think us complainers are impatient but we also don't see enough from Quinn's work with the young forwards that gives us faith in the process. It's very unfortunate and coincidental that the two players that were on the cusp of breaking out both went down to injuries and covid so the jury is still out. Aside from that, there's a lot of stagnation with our older young forwards in howden goat and lemieux. The way Andersson and Vitali left sourly also is concerning so we're screaming and complaining because we have no faith in Quinn's abilities at the NHL level in general and specifically turning our elite centerpiece forwards into 40 then 50 then 60 then 70 point players.

 

[gravey9]

Miller was extremely hyped and this board had the highest of expectations for him. I'm not sure why you don't accept that as the basis for our assertion that Miller's phenomenal play thus far has been a product of his growth in his 2 years since the draft and only partial credit should go to Martin and Quinn's development up until this point since K'andre was great almost from the start of the season once he got over the nerves. We're talking about development and progress here. How much of his great play and development 2 weeks into his Rangers career do you really want to credit Quinn with? The longer he succeeds at the NHL level and keep improving, the more developmental credit will go to Quinn and Martin just like Lindgren is now a great success story for this staff.

I agree with some of this, but I do think it's important to point out how much so many of our D struggled under Lindy Ruff's system. Specifically young D. The list is quite long and pretty much includes every single player outside of Fox and Lindgren.

What Martin has put in place has absolutely created a situation where guys like K'Andre, Hajek and Bittetto look anywhere from awesome to serviceable. This may not be a function of development but purely a function of masking deficiencies. But when you do that it allows your young D to gain confidence and trust their teammates. It allows supremely talented kids like Miller to grow his game quicker. It ironcially might be stifling the development of the forwards, but it's really helping Miller. Miller looked very mediocre last year in part because the freshmen on Wisconsin just could not figure out how to consistently play within a structure while Miller was trying to develop his game in his own zone. It was a recipe for disaster. The fact that Miller came out of that season and flourished in a level higher is a testament to his fortitude and his work ethic. But is Quinn a good development coach for D? I don't think so. Is Martin providing a structure for the kids on D to develop? yes.

 

[Alluckks]

You f***ing guys made this place unbearable. Seems within a month all my favorite long time posters to have a normal discussion with are either completely gone or reduced their posting to a minimum.

I have so many idiots on my ignore and sometimes it still doesn't feel like enough...

 

[Alluckks]

The stakes for our conversations on here are rock bottom. They have no impact on real life.

So it's unclear to me why people get so worked up in these discussions. Take it a little less seriously.

You don't love the same people yelling at others how much they hate David Quinn, Jack Johnson, Tony Deangelo, Brett Howden and they are ruining their life every other day?

 

[Fitzy]

You don't love the same people yelling at others how much they hate David Quinn, Jack Johnson, Tony Deangelo, Brett Howden and they are ruining their life every other day?

I hate all of you equally. Except one.

 

[Alluckks]

I hate all of you equally. Except one.

Well, yes, of course, we all love Bernmesiter more than the others

 

[TheDirtyH]

I don't mind management's no panic, straightforward belief that every kid is just going to 'pop' when he's ready. In the end, that's the rebuild, and you have to wait and see and collect assets and continue to let them cook.

OTOH @Ola is very right to point out that a 1OA and a 2OA are franchise defining picks. Particularly the 1OA and 2OA we got. How many kids have a U18 gold, U20 gold, and WC gold before they're drafted. How many draft eligible players have ever outproduced Kakko's D-1 season? How many prospects have ever won the CHL player of the year award twice before their drafted? How many have captained a gold metal winning wjc team as an 18y/o and won MVP?

Patience is golden but it's disturbing to watch these two combine for 14g and 28pts over their first 100gp. It's not normal. Things get stuck on whether this is Quinn's fault, but wherever you land on that, it's a truly weird level of optimism not to be disappointed and concerned about the starts of these two cornerstone's careers.

 

[TheDirtyH]

Like I feel like I'm being gaslit when I read the genuine pleas for sanity, but what they're calling for is to have more blind faith that this is going really well and our young forwards are actually trending very, very well. Like cup-contender for many years well.

 

[duhmetreE]

No, the better logic is being the sole arbiter of dumbster fire. I.e - Wisconsin developed Miller.

He developed into the player he was at camp in Wisconsin and International play. If you do not believe that, that's your pergoative.

To give Quinn and co ALL the credit, as in KAMs the player he is because of them, is false imo.

I don't even know what you're arguing anymore.

 

[Tob]

I agree with some of this, but I do think it's important to point out how much so many of our D struggled under Lindy Ruff's system. Specifically young D. The list is quite long and pretty much includes every single player outside of Fox and Lindgren.

What Martin has put in place has absolutely created a situation where guys like K'Andre, Hajek and Bittetto look anywhere from awesome to serviceable. This may not be a function of development but purely a function of masking deficiencies. But when you do that it allows your young D to gain confidence and trust their teammates. It allows supremely talented kids like Miller to grow his game quicker. It ironcially might be stifling the development of the forwards, but it's really helping Miller. Miller looked very mediocre last year in part because the freshmen on Wisconsin just could not figure out how to consistently play within a structure while Miller was trying to develop his game in his own zone. It was a recipe for disaster. The fact that Miller came out of that season and flourished in a level higher is a testament to his fortitude and his work ethic. But is Quinn a good development coach for D? I don't think so. Is Martin providing a structure for the kids on D to develop? yes.

Ya I'm really impressed with Martin. Probably just forgot what a good defense looks like after 4 years of Ruff and the D coach tryouts in AV's first few years. If it sounded like I was taking points away from Martin, that's actually the opposite of how I feel. The fact that Martin has made this type of an impact from the get go even Quinn was impressed with how good the structure is also makes the anti-Quinn crowd go crazy questioning what Quinn's strengths are.

 

[pld459666]

A hole like that can always be filled with money.

Kid needs to realize that millions and millions of dollars of potential career earnings rely entirely on his ability to suck it up and play like it's a contact sport.

You would think.

I hope

 

[Bob Richards]

thirty one leaving has been tough on all of us

ridiculous for him to do so and expect the rest of us to fill that void

i can try to pick up the slack and post more jokes but does he also expect me to be canadian? get real. thats a bridge too far.

 

[Tob]

ridiculous for him to do so and expect the rest of us to fill that void

i can try to pick up the slack and post more jokes but does he also expect me to be canadian? get real. thats a bridge too far.

This place is a sinking ship without an accountant's touch

 

[RangersFan1994]

San Jose Sharks F Stefan Noesen, Nashville Predators D Jarred Tinordi placed on waivers - TSN.ca


didnt the Rangers have interest in Tinordi in his draft year?

 

[duhmetreE]

How do we combine 2019-2020 Offense and Shesty with 2021 Defensive structure? is it possible to even it out?