Speculation: Roster Building Thread LXXXII: Stepping up in a Perfect Storm?

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You f***ing guys made this place unbearable. Seems within a month all my favorite long time posters to have a normal discussion with are either completely gone or reduced their posting to a minimum.
please, elaborate.

What would you like to talk about? Sam Bennett trades? Covid? Politics? You obviously really do not like David Quinn discussion, even though its relevant.. Powerplay looked good last game.

The state of the Rangers = this board. When things are not going well, it will be evident here.

If things were going well, it will be evident on here.
 
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Who, specifically, are you referring to? What’s so unbearable about what’s being discussed in here?
What's unbearable is the selective reasoning. And the hyperbole.

This season (and last, too) have been unlike any seasons we've ever seen. That seems to be easily dismissed with "well other teams are going through the same thing." Which is irrelevant as every team is different. And players are creatures of habit whose lives (like all off ours) have been put out of wack.

For some reason, the rabid Anti-Quinn crowd is more than willing to kill him for every fault, yet want to give him no credit for anything positive. Fox, Lindrgen, and Miller have all been very good. But rather than credit Quinn, they were either developed by Harvard, Boston or Wisconsin. Or they were already developed when the Ranger traded for them or drafted them.

Kappo Kakko has been better this year. Are the offensive numbers where we would all like? Of course not. But he has played a much more engaged and better all-around game than he should last season. That's development. That's progressison. But, rather than recognizing Quinn has played a part in that, people complain because Kakko hasn't reached the number that they concocted in their heads (Kakko will score 60 points as a rookie).

Lafreniere is playing a like a rookie. Imagine that. But is Lafreniere's lack of production the bigger issue than Mika being just awful this season? And are either Quinn's fault? The easy answer is yes. But the real answer is no.

It's very easy to blame Quinn for what's wrong with the team. Because, by and large, this team's biggest weaknesses were what where believed to the givens and strength heading into the season (the top 6 and the goaltending). Those two factors have struggled and now Quinn isn't the right coach for the team when those two things were, by and large, positives last years.

No team is a good as they look when they're winning. And they're not as bad as they look. But that really should not be the standard when looking at this team. Objectively, this team had as good a chance to miss the playoffs as they did making it. And, if we're being honest, a better chance of being a lottery team than winning a playoff round. That's where this team is. And no amount of bitching, moaning, pleading and willing won't change that. Despite how much this board wants it to.

This team young, developing and far from being a finished product. Progression and development is not a straight line. And, whether people want to admit it or not, theses non-typical seasons will effect the growing process. Further, this team shouldn't be truly be judged by wins and losses at this point.

Speaking for myself, what is so unbearable is the general inability to have a normal conversation and agree to disagree. To see the other side and take a moment to see what that person is really saying. Rather, too often, the natural response is anything from "you're wrong" to "can I have what you're smoking." Instead of debating an argument, the MO becomes "think the way I do." So I can try to explain that while there are things that Quinn that I don't understand I think there are positives that can't be overlooked. But it's easier to throw out things like "he's been outreached every game" and to bend over backwards to give Quinn no credit. It's the dealing in black and white, dealing in absolutes and needing to prove that "I'm right" that us what's unbearable.

Conventional wisdom was you can't rebuild in NY. Judging by the need for instant gratification and lack of patience, maybe CW was right....
 
What's unbearable is the selective reasoning. And the hyperbole.

This season (and last, too) have been unlike any seasons we've ever seen. That seems to be easily dismissed with "well other teams are going through the same thing." Which is irrelevant as every team is different. And players are creatures of habit whose lives (like all off ours) have been put out of wack.

For some reason, the rabid Anti-Quinn crowd is more than willing to kill him for every fault, yet want to give him no credit for anything positive. Fox, Lindrgen, and Miller have all been very good. But rather than credit Quinn, they were either developed by Harvard, Boston or Wisconsin. Or they were already developed when the Ranger traded for them or drafted them.

Kappo Kakko has been better this year. Are the offensive numbers where we would all like? Of course not. But he has played a much more engaged and better all-around game than he should last season. That's development. That's progressison. But, rather than recognizing Quinn has played a part in that, people complain because Kakko hasn't reached the number that they concocted in their heads (Kakko will score 60 points as a rookie).

Lafreniere is playing a like a rookie. Imagine that. But is Lafreniere's lack of production the bigger issue than Mika being just awful this season? And are either Quinn's fault? The easy answer is yes. But the real answer is no.

It's very easy to blame Quinn for what's wrong with the team. Because, by and large, this team's biggest weaknesses were what where believed to the givens and strength heading into the season (the top 6 and the goaltending). Those two factors have struggled and now Quinn isn't the right coach for the team when those two things were, by and large, positives last years.

No team is a good as they look when they're winning. And they're not as bad as they look. But that really should not be the standard when looking at this team. Objectively, this team had as good a chance to miss the playoffs as they did making it. And, if we're being honest, a better chance of being a lottery team than winning a playoff round. That's where this team is. And no amount of bitching, moaning, pleading and willing won't change that. Despite how much this board wants it to.

This team young, developing and far from being a finished product. Progression and development is not a straight line. And, whether people want to admit it or not, theses non-typical seasons will effect the growing process. Further, this team shouldn't be truly be judged by wins and losses at this point.

Speaking for myself, what is so unbearable is the general inability to have a normal conversation and agree to disagree. To see the other side and take a moment to see what that person is really saying. Rather, too often, the natural response is anything from "you're wrong" to "can I have what you're smoking." Instead of debating an argument, the MO becomes "think the way I do." So I can try to explain that while there are things that Quinn that I don't understand I think there are positives that can't be overlooked. But it's easier to throw out things like "he's been outreached every game" and to bend over backwards to give Quinn no credit. It's the dealing in black and white, dealing in absolutes and needing to prove that "I'm right" that us what's unbearable.

Conventional wisdom was you can't rebuild in NY. Judging by the need for instant gratification and lack of patience, maybe CW was right....

You're bringing up a bunch of random points and I agree with nearly all of them

I can only speak for myself. I do not like Quinn's system. Until last game, I did not like the PP, hopefully they stick with it. I do not agree with his lineup choices. KAM and Fox's development is brought up when I question Quinn.. Piggy backing on that, I also do not buy that they are the players they are, solely because of Quinn. They developed like every other player develops and they have continued to develop with Quinn.

but once again, the points I initially bring up are not debated... it always gets twisted into 'well, he developed these players'. So to reiterate, I do no like Quinn's system and his personnel decisions. If you would like to discuss/refute that, great.
 
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You’re absolutely correct on this. He’s always been a highly touted prospect. So much I feared he’d be a bust bc you know how it is ...reasons? That said the bathroom is a great place for thinking.
I think the real problem was he was putting a lot of points his freshman year at Wisconsin, so the expectations went up. Then Wisconsin struggled during his sophomore year , and he didn't continue his high point totals, especially to start his season. This turned down his "development" and lessened his protentional for many here on this board.
 
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I do not care to argue how players are playing, that is not controllable for the most part.

Decisions that are controllable are what stand out to me. A system and roster choices are controllable. Zibs playing like he has 4 feet is not controllable but making sure your players are sharp/prepared is controllable.

Things are going to go wrong but when things you have direct control over, continue to go wrong, it's a problem. Who has more control over these choices than the Head Coach? So, yes. I see a lot of issues stemming from David Quinn, the 'head controller'.
 
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Taking Strome off the powerplay this year was one of those Message Board Guy fixes that I didn't have a lot of faith in. Now he's back on it and it looks fine. But I get that when something isn't working, you can't just leave it the same forever.

I don't know, there are certain lines of discussion that make me just scroll down (whenever I see Tony Granato's name!) but it's a weird roster getting frustrating results and people are cooped up inside.
 
I almost mentioned Bennett specifically in that post but people seem tired of me beating that drum. Fast is obviously another example. They’re not top six players on paper, but in a situation like Fast with Panarin and Strome, you have skilled players paired with a puck hound and disturber. They create some havoc and space for the skill players to take advantage of. Not the best example, because they had such poor depth, but Maroon and Kassian having success with McDavid are similar stories. Ideally, it’s great if you can find one or two top six quality guys who do play that game, but there’s not an abundant supply of those players, which is why you often see a “grinder” plugged in with two skill guys. It helps you spread the skill guys across three lines and put a play disturber on each line who knows what their role is. We could definitely benefit from targeting a couple of those types.

I agree you need to get someone in fast to dig for and retrieve pucks on pretty much anything that is going to be a scoring line and losing Fast did not help--he hit quite a lot though he wasn't really a heavy hitter--still it was enough to often keep the opposition off balance and he was a smart player pretty much in all areas of the ice. Maroon worked well with McDavid but really he's not a particularly good skater--if he gets scrumming along the boards and corners for pucks he's a factor there but he needs that extra half second or so to get there.
 
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Carolina never trades that kind of physical package unless they saw a decent sized flaw.

This guy has NHL skill from neck to toe. And there's the flaw. Carolina saw it and moved it for a nice prospect.

Joey Keane will be a Cane well after Gauthier is no longer a Ranger is my unfortunate opinion.

7 pts in 7 games for Keane btw this season with the Wolves

He also has a bowling ball sized hole in his chest.
 
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I don't think Quinn is doing anything special with the kids that most any other coach in the NHL would have been able to accomplish or even improve. I think management bought harder into this developmental coach theory than the actual coach himself with how hard he rides his veterans. I feel Quinn is much more worried about his future in the NHL than the future of the youth on the rangers. He's more than happy to waste a year of possible positive development than putting the kids in a better position to succeed. In my opinion we need to move on from Quinn in the off-season. Our offensive forwards have not shown enough improvement for him to be sticking around.
 
Speaking for myself, what is so unbearable is the general inability to have a normal conversation and agree to disagree. To see the other side and take a moment to see what that person is really saying. Rather, too often, the natural response is anything from "you're wrong" to "can I have what you're smoking." Instead of debating an argument, the MO becomes "think the way I do." So I can try to explain that while there are things that Quinn that I don't understand I think there are positives that can't be overlooked. But it's easier to throw out things like "he's been outreached every game" and to bend over backwards to give Quinn no credit. It's the dealing in black and white, dealing in absolutes and needing to prove that "I'm right" that us what's unbearable.

I'm not sure what the age range is around here (it feels like it is getting younger as I get older), but we are moving into a time where the younger Rangers fan is only used to the team making the playoffs and in general being a winning team. The Lundqvist Era fan is not used to seeing what we are at the moment. The Dark Ages was so long ago that if it were a person, they'd be close enough to being able to drink legally. It was win at all costs. Outshot 35-20, but you won, the process to get there didn't matter. The results were what they were. Those teams were chasing results, not chasing a process. The directive from above was to win a championship, and they came really close to it.

What we are seeing now is a young team (the youngest in the league), trying to learn how to win at the highest level. It's a team that's depth is not there yet because that depth is still being cultivated at the lower levels. So when someone goes down, we're not promoting a player that is on a lower line only because the players in front of him are better, but also that they are not necessarily ready for that role. The directive is not to win a championship now, but to make it possible in the future.

It's hard to have an argument or discussion where you see both sides when I believe some people still have the "win at all costs" mentality OR they are overestimating where the team is. Blaming the coach is easy. It's a simple argument, lacking complexity as to why the team is struggling to win games. To say Quinn doesn't have deficiencies would be extremely difficult to argue against, but the issue as you mentioned above is that the fire Quinn group only sees those deficiencies.

It comes down to this question for anyone discussing the team: What expectations did you put on this team coming into the season? If someone believes it is playoffs or bust, well you're going to be angry. You're not going to want to hear about the "underlying positives". If you were on the end where you thought it could happen, but want to see overall progress from the team, I think you're still somewhat disappointed, but nowhere close to the other group since you are seeing things that will lead to success in the future.

In the end, we're talking about fans of the team. Not everyone is looking and sees that Fox, Lindgren, Miller, Kakko, Buchnevich, and Chytil are getting better at the NHL level. One where Zibanejad is struggling after getting COVID, Panarin is forced to leave the team due to external reasons, where DeAngelo left the team cause of internal reasons, and a myriad of injuries on defense where depth before the season was thin as is. They are seeing a team that is 6-8-3. They are seeing Lafreniere only having 2 points and Kakko only having 3 and nothing is changing their mind that if Quinn was removed that they would start scoring and producing.

Maybe it does happen, but we're currently in the long game, not the short one, and I think we're seeing who can hold their cards when they see a winner is on the way versus folding your hand and wanting a new one when it looks a little bleak.
 
I think our defending after the first few games this year has made a significant improvement from the last few seasons. That is real progress to me. The problem has been the offense has been anemic. Among the reasons for that is Zibanejed's slow start--the on/off play of Strome and the injury to Chytil. All this is going to be compounded by the leave of absence to Panarin. But really the center position has been a problem for us all season--on faceoffs and point production and if your centers aren't producing you're going to have a problem winning games. This is not something that I'd blame on Quinn. I don't think anyone foresaw Mika's slow start and Strome has always been a bit mercurial.
 
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I am not sure whether or not I would want Quinn fired. I mean, who replaces him? Do we know they would do better? Gallant? I just don't know. He was fired from a team that was seemingly doing well or improving, twice. That seems odd. Julien? Is his style the way we want to go? Is the league passing him by, or has it already?

I will say that I see people bring up the system as why they don't like him, but that same system has the defense playing far better than it ever had in the last 3 years. If not for injuries we might have still been playing that stronger defense which looked to be helping Igor find his game. Of course someone will say that's Martin's doing. Maybe. Maybe not.

Also, I don't know if this means much, but I have a lot of friends back in California and they sometimes watch the Rangers cause they know I am a fan and they don't think we are nearly as bad as I think, or what our board seems to think. So I guess there is that cause they may be a little more objective?

For the record though, if Quinn is fired, I would hope they go with Gallant and keep Martin. Wishful thinking.
 
I'm not going to sit here and say I like DQ as a coach, I don't. Nor do I think he's fully at fault. But I don't think it's wrong to say he's not that good of an NHL coach in general. Does the coach not have a system and a style outlined within that system? I don't care as much about the development aspect in a sense. Development has way more factors than just the coach. I mean, the development coaches? So there's a good amount of factors going into that. My problem lies with the team stylistically. The offense is stale, and for a team that doesn't have many offensive weapons from the point besides one or two, they sure defer the puck there a lot. I'm all for creating offense from the point but it can't be your main source, and you can't win hockey games and play well consistently with no semblance of a functioning cycle game and board work.

Youngest team in the league, gonna hit ruts. That's obvious. But my qualm is just that they don't seem to play a sustainable or super effective brand of offensive hockey. You saw what happened in the bubble last season. If you can't create offense or your system doesn't promote offense below the goal line, that's a concern, to me. You guys can disagree with me saying that DQ's offense doesn't promote creating below the goal line but, watch a lot of even just decent teams vs what the Rangers do and pay close attention to what their first options are in the o-zone compared to the Rangers.

That's my issue. Partly why I think Gerard Gallant would be an amazing coach to get this team where they need to be. He would help their fundamentals a lot on top of the skill that is already on the roster.
 
I thought we were having a discussion but Quinn Defense League seems to take it personal.
As with most things, both sides have made some valid points. And this is coming from someone who’s given up on Quinn. Everything is most definitely not his fault in the grand scheme of things.

I question some of his decisions, but this team has also had some really bad luck this year.

I think most here will agree he’s not an end game coach for us. But, who cares what I think. Please, proceed with the Kung fu fighting. It’s kind of amusing. :laugh::popcorn:
 
He also has a bowling ball sized hole in his chest.

A hole like that can always be filled with money.

Kid needs to realize that millions and millions of dollars of potential career earnings rely entirely on his ability to suck it up and play like it's a contact sport.
 
I'm not going to sit here and say I like DQ as a coach, I don't. Nor do I think he's fully at fault. But I don't think it's wrong to say he's not that good of an NHL coach in general. Does the coach not have a system and a style outlined within that system? I don't care as much about the development aspect in a sense. Development has way more factors than just the coach. I mean, the development coaches? So there's a good amount of factors going into that. My problem lies with the team stylistically. The offense is stale, and for a team that doesn't have many offensive weapons from the point besides one or two, they sure defer the puck there a lot. I'm all for creating offense from the point but it can't be your main source, and you can't win hockey games and play well consistently with no semblance of a functioning cycle game and board work.

Youngest team in the league, gonna hit ruts. That's obvious. But my qualm is just that they don't seem to play a sustainable or super effective brand of offensive hockey. You saw what happened in the bubble last season. If you can't create offense or your system doesn't promote offense below the goal line, that's a concern, to me. You guys can disagree with me saying that DQ's offense doesn't promote creating below the goal line but, watch a lot of even just decent teams vs what the Rangers do and pay close attention to what their first options are in the o-zone compared to the Rangers.

That's my issue. Partly why I think Gerard Gallant would be an amazing coach to get this team where they need to be. He would help their fundamentals a lot on top of the skill that is already on the roster.
we see the same issues.
 
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I'm not going to sit here and say I like DQ as a coach, I don't. Nor do I think he's fully at fault. But I don't think it's wrong to say he's not that good of an NHL coach in general. Does the coach not have a system and a style outlined within that system? I don't care as much about the development aspect in a sense. Development has way more factors than just the coach. I mean, the development coaches? So there's a good amount of factors going into that. My problem lies with the team stylistically. The offense is stale, and for a team that doesn't have many offensive weapons from the point besides one or two, they sure defer the puck there a lot. I'm all for creating offense from the point but it can't be your main source, and you can't win hockey games and play well consistently with no semblance of a functioning cycle game and board work.

Youngest team in the league, gonna hit ruts. That's obvious. But my qualm is just that they don't seem to play a sustainable or super effective brand of offensive hockey. You saw what happened in the bubble last season. If you can't create offense or your system doesn't promote offense below the goal line, that's a concern, to me. You guys can disagree with me saying that DQ's offense doesn't promote creating below the goal line but, watch a lot of even just decent teams vs what the Rangers do and pay close attention to what their first options are in the o-zone compared to the Rangers.

That's my issue. Partly why I think Gerard Gallant would be an amazing coach to get this team where they need to be. He would help their fundamentals a lot on top of the skill that is already on the roster.

Good points all around.
 
So, they can develop in dumpster fire seasons, but others cant? OK. Magic Quinn, I forgot... it must be his eyes

edit - KAM/Fox cant develop with 2/3 years of college/international because dumpster fire.
Everyone else developed during their dumpster fire seasons here because reasons.


A+ logic
No, the better logic is being the sole arbiter of dumbster fire. I.e - Wisconsin developed Miller.
 
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