Speculation: Roster Building Thread LXXXII: Stepping up in a Perfect Storm?

[duhmetreE]

The argument is this. For the people claiming that Fox and Miller arrived in NY as perfectly formed players. Which means that the believe two things. That at the time of the Gorton trade they KNEW they were already getting a player whose trajectory was to be an elite top line defenseman. And that Miller developed in Wisconsin.

Both assertions are utter horsecrap. At the time of the Fox deal, most in the NHL thought him to be a nice 2nd pair defenseman in the future. Including no one here. If someone wants to claim this, then let's see the posts that proclaim as such. And lest we forget the cries around here about needing to rescue Miller from Wisconsin as he was being ruined there by Granato. If someone wants to argue that Granato was properly developing him, then again let's see the proof.

The reason that NO ONE can produce such is that such assertions did not exist. So, no. Neither player came to NY as a perfectly formed player. Miller did not suddenly develop himself skating in the backyard. This board goes to so much contortions to try not to give the team any credit for development. To the point of intellectual dishonesty. AFTER Fox came here and begin developing, he took the next step to be where he is now, a borderline top line defenseman. AFTER Miller came here, he began developing into what he is. Not in friggin' Wisconsin where all proclaiming now that he came in as a perfectly formed player were previously falling into collective apoplexy about how Granato was ruining him.

That's the argument.

is that the argument? or is it that people are suspect with the role Quinn had in their gameplay?

It's always used as an excuse for defending bad Quinn decisions... paraphrasing, 'Look how good Fox and Miller are, Quinn did that'. That's what's being objected. Now it's morphed into, Fox and Miller are complete and perfect players before they came here? Fox and Miller were both as good as it gets as prospects when they came here. Look at Fox's accomplishments and production... Look at how JD was gushing over KAM like a schoolgirl from Covid camp.

So, the issue, to me at least, is using this as a 'sellpoint' that Quinn is a good coach. That's like winning the lottery and saying you're a good business man because you have a lot of money.

 

[JimmyG89]

Hall, Skinner, Olafson, Staal, reinhart, Middelstat, Cozens, Dahlin, Okposo Ristolainen, Miller etc isnt nothing and he needs to stop sooking and be part of the solution, the team committed long term to him and all he talks about is leaving.

Jeff Skinner has 1 POINT this season. Okposo has been on a steep decline, but his health scares are more of a reason for that than anything, would be a solid middle 6 winger if those didn't happen. Middelstat cannot crack their lineup. Staal is 36 years old and a team that has legit concerns at center traded him there. Cozens is a 19 year old rookie.

Reinhart is a good player, Olafsson is a good scoring winger, probably best suited as a 2nd liner, but there is definite upside to be a top line winger. Dahlin is a top pairing guy. Risto is decent, but nothing special. Miller is a watered down version of DeAngelo. Hall is someone that he should be able to work with. He's a legit 1st liner.

Their issue is not really in their top players, but once you get past that, there is nothing. No legit or even average 3rd line or 2nd pairing. I'd argue their current 2nd line (outside of Hall) should be a 3rd line.

Also, they don't have a goalie. They have two backups.

Eichel should be frustrated. They build and build and build and then it amounts to nothing. Top of the draft all the time. At some point, you have to just get in to the playoffs. Six seasons since he has been there and not a sniff of the postseason. Since he was drafted, they have had top 10 picks every year. Not even close to being a playoff team.

 

[Trxjw]

I think Eichel is at the center of that entire organizations problems. That better said? If buffalo would trade him for like a 1st, Kravtsov, Strome and Lundquist. Then yea, go for it. Hell throw in Howden. Buffalo aint that stupid. Cant be.

I think the fact that he's checked out is a major problem for Buffalo. I just simply don't believe he's the root cause of the dysfunction and lack of winning in Buffalo. That falls on the scouting, player development, rotation of GMs and coaches, and the Pegula's doing too much interfering.

The Rangers aren't going to deal premium talents on ELCs for Eichel. I would expect Fox, Kakko, Laf, Miller, and Igor all to be off the table. We've been down this road before with other stars. They never get the return people expect.

 

[True Blue]

Miller looked like this since Covid Camp which made JD gush over him. Since then, I knew he was making the squad the upcoming season.

Jacques Martin has helped the defense a lot. I do not know the exact intricate workings of the coaching staff BUT the players were no where near as good as they are this year.

JM improved their positioning, gaps, stick work, reading, getting in lanes, shot blocking, PK etc... In every aspect, they are leaps and bounds better than they have ever been under Quinn. If you want to give the majority of the credit to Quinn for that, you'd be wrong.

Quinn has done well with some of the 'older' players, (his star pupils, Buchnevich, Zibs and ADA). Using it as a 'get out of jail' card for all the other shit, is fallacious

Did Martin also develop Fox and Lindgren last year? How about Chytil? Or is he one of the older players and a star pupil as well?

So yes, Miller left the trash heap of Wisconsin, and simply developed himself skating in the backyard with Lafreiere? At least Lafreniere got that part right. He single handedly raised Miller's level of play from Wisconsin to the NHL.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Jeff Skinner has 1 POINT this season. Okposo has been on a steep decline, but his health scares are more of a reason for that than anything, would be a solid middle 6 winger if those didn't happen. Middelstat cannot crack their lineup. Staal is 36 years old and a team that has legit concerns at center traded him there. Cozens is a 19 year old rookie.

Reinhart is a good player, Olafsson is a good scoring winger, probably best suited as a 2nd liner, but there is definite upside to be a top line winger. Dahlin is a top pairing guy. Risto is decent, but nothing special. Miller is a watered down version of DeAngelo. Hall is someone that he should be able to work with. He's a legit 1st liner.

Their issue is not really in their top players, but once you get past that, there is nothing. No legit or even average 3rd line or 2nd pairing. I'd argue their current 2nd line (outside of Hall) should be a 3rd line.

Also, they don't have a goalie. They have two backups.

Eichel should be frustrated. They build and build and build and then it amounts to nothing. Top of the draft all the time. At some point, you have to just get in to the playoffs. Six seasons since he has been there and not a sniff of the postseason. Since he was drafted, they have had top 10 picks every year. Not even close to being a playoff team.

Okposo and Skinner are there because of Eichel's sooking, a lot of the decisions you are talking about were to appease Eichel, and now that the team is handcuffed he wants out. Hes a good player but i honestly see him more like Yashin than i do Messier.

 

[True Blue]

is that the argument? or is it that people are suspect with the role Quinn had in their gameplay?

It's always used as an excuse for defending bad Quinn decisions... paraphrasing, 'Look how good Fox and Miller are, Quinn did that'. That's what's being objected. Now it's morphed into, Fox and Miller are complete and perfect players before they came here? Fox and Miller were both as good as it gets as prospects when they came here. Look at Fox's accomplishments and production... Look at how JD was gushing over KAM like a schoolgirl from Covid camp.

So, the issue, to me at least, is using this as a 'sellpoint' that Quinn is a good coach. That's like winning the lottery and saying you're a good business man because you have a lot of money.

This is not about Quinn's decisions. This is about giving him proper flack for and then just ranting a narrative. There are things that you can legitamately blame him for. Team coming out unprepared at times, juggling lines too quickly and not letting them gel. Look at last night's game. No way Borzinksi should have played that much. No way were the 6 players on the ice in the end all of the right ones.

And then there are things that he does do well. One of them does happen to be development. So to claim that Fox and Miller arrived in NY as perfectly formed players is nothing but sheer idiocy.

 

[Daves a mess]

Gauthier is one of the most frustrating players I can remember. He's so big and so strong and skates so well, but he doesn't produce and he doesn't use his size to his advantage.

It's that big box between the ears. Not a lot of NHL quality stuff going on up there.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

I don't get all the love for Eichel. My 2 cents. He's the worst captain in the NHL. Grew up in a losing Franchise and still has the loser bug like Hall. I'd stand pat and not add this loser mentality into the room that already is struggling to find it's own leadership amongst all these kids. Could he be better on a team that has other pieces to help out? Yea probably. I just wouldn't blow up the roster for this guy unless it was for something like spare parts of the rebuild. Which I doubt Buffalo would do.

I'd keep everything as is and go into next year with a clean slate and expectations that we're a playoff team. Maybe some coaching changes but that's it. When healthy and under a regular season this team should be expected to make big strides next year.

Yeah he’s an incredible talent but a total mope and not a compete player . I want to get him but also worried that he won’t change

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

is that the argument? or is it that people are suspect with the role Quinn had in their gameplay?

It's always used as an excuse for defending bad Quinn decisions... paraphrasing, 'Look how good Fox and Miller are, Quinn did that'. That's what's being objected. Now it's morphed into, Fox and Miller are complete and perfect players before they came here? Fox and Miller were both as good as it gets as prospects when they came here. Look at Fox's accomplishments and production... Look at how JD was gushing over KAM like a schoolgirl from Covid camp.

So, the issue, to me at least, is using this as a 'sellpoint' that Quinn is a good coach. That's like winning the lottery and saying you're a good business man because you have a lot of money.

Or maybe every player is different and they're not all on the same timeline? Did anyone think Miller was going to be so good, so fast? Look at the complete 180 Kakko has made since last year. Whether he's here or not next season as coach, people don't get to pick and choose what prospect he's helped or who he's "ruined" to backup whatever claim they're trying to make. It's ridiculous. You know why Blackwell was on PP1 last night and Laff wasn't? Blackwell played better, you noticed him on the ice. What did Laff do skating with Zib and Buch? Zero. Why the hell should any coach just gift him minutes? Laff is going to be a heck of a player, but he needs to show a little more at the moment. But to get on the coach for not force feeding a kid power play time that he frankly doesn't deserve, that's silly.

 

[duhmetreE]

Did Martin also develop Fox and Lindgren last year? How about Chytil? Or is he one of the older players and a star pupil as well?

So yes, Miller left the trash heap of Wisconsin, and simply developed himself skating in the backyard with Lafreiere? At least Lafreniere got that part right. He single handedly raised Miller's level of play from Wisconsin to the NHL.

Going all over the place again.

So, why was JD gushing over KAM?

We're talking about KAM and Fox. How they both have excelled at the NHL level..

How much of a role did David Quinn play in that, is the issue. You seem to believe that they wouldn't be the players they are without him? or at least it sounds like that. I believe, they would be the same players. I also believe, Martin has helped them grow this year.... you know, because he's a great defensive coach? and the evidence is on the ice?

no sophmore slump for Fox. He looks like a legit #1

 

[Trxjw]

Hall, Skinner, Olafson, Staal, reinhart, Middelstat, Cozens, Dahlin, Okposo Ristolainen, Miller etc isnt nothing and he needs to stop sooking and be part of the solution, the team committed long term to him and all he talks about is leaving.

It is very much nothing. Those are all rookies, failed prospects, marginal NHL talents, or veterans who are hunting for/got a payday then crashed. Again, ROR forced his way out of Buffalo for the very same reasons, was chided for the same reasons you're chiding Eichel, and yet he went on to win a cup the following year.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Guess who's back... back again.



any chance he plays next game? Giroux looked like an animal last night with limited practice/time.

Giroux is also a borderline hall of Famer so I wouldn’t use him as a measuring stick

 

[True Blue]

yes and yes

I think i gave quinn partial credit for Key and Fox. Not none.

Then produce the posts. Betting you can't. You cannot produce one item where you state that at the time of the trade you knew that Fox was elite and you will certainly not find one post by yourself where you congratulate Granato for developing him. Which means that you are basically full of crap. Sorry, actually there is no basically about it.

Just wondering, do you actually believe your own crap?

 

[Daves a mess]

Gauthier is one of the most frustrating players I can remember. He's so big and so strong and skates so well, but he doesn't produce and he doesn't use his size to his advantage.

Carolina never trades that kind of physical package unless they saw a decent sized flaw.

This guy has NHL skill from neck to toe. And there's the flaw. Carolina saw it and moved it for a nice prospect.

Joey Keane will be a Cane well after Gauthier is no longer a Ranger is my unfortunate opinion.

7 pts in 7 games for Keane btw this season with the Wolves

 

[True Blue]

Going all over the place again.

So, why was JD gushing over KAM?

We're talking about KAM and Fox. How they both have excelled at the NHL level..

How much of a role did David Quinn play in that, is the issue. You seem to believe that they wouldn't be the players they are without him? or at least it sounds like that. I believe, they would be the same players. I also believe, Martin has helped them grow this year.... you know, because he's a great defensive coach? and the evidence is on the ice?

no sophmore slump for Fox. He looks like a legit #1

This is called obfuscation. JD was also gushing about Schneider. He was certainly not gushing about his performance in Wisconsin.

I believe that Fox and Miller came to the Rangers at one level. And are now on a different level. And someone besides Martin probably had something to do with it.

 

[Tob]

Then produce the posts. Betting you can't. You cannot produce one item where you state that at the time of the trade you knew that Fox was elite and you will certainly not find one post by yourself where you congratulate Granato for developing him. Which means that you are basically full of crap. Sorry, actually there is no basically about it.

Just wondering, do you actually believe your own crap?

You seem extremely caught up on this idea that a fan MUST know that a player is good in order for the player to actually be good. You're arguing something that only makes sense in the 5th dimension and no one knows how to answer that so far.

 

[NoQuitInNewMexico]

How likely is Barkov to stay in Florida? Obviously his team looks good this year. I don't care that much about Jack Eichel body language analysis, but I'm not sure if I'm secure enough in the rebuild to trade pieces like Lundkvist and this year/next year unprotected first round picks.

 

[MetalJaws]

Yeah he’s an incredible talent but a total mope and not a compete player . I want to get him but also worried that he won’t change

For spare parts and picks, sign me up.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

It is very much nothing. Those are all rookies, failed prospects, marginal NHL talents, or veterans who are hunting for/got a payday then crashed. Again, ROR forced his way out of Buffalo for the very same reasons, was chided for the same reasons you're chiding Eichel, and yet he went on to win a cup the following year.

Ror left because the players were to quote him "ok with losing", thats an indictment on Eichel as well.

 

[MetalJaws]

I think the fact that he's checked out is a major problem for Buffalo. I just simply don't believe he's the root cause of the dysfunction and lack of winning in Buffalo. That falls on the scouting, player development, rotation of GMs and coaches, and the Pegula's doing too much interfering.

The Rangers aren't going to deal premium talents on ELCs for Eichel. I would expect Fox, Kakko, Laf, Miller, and Igor all to be off the table. We've been down this road before with other stars. They never get the return people expect.

Yea but then what's left? 2021 unprotected 1st, Kravtsov, Lundqvist, Chytil and Howden

That's a big ask as well

 

[Trxjw]

Ror left because the players were to quote him "ok with losing", thats an indictment on Eichel as well.

So a guy who is "okay with losing" now wants out because of the losing. Welp, I certainly can't see any flaws in that logic.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

For spare parts and picks, sign me up.

He’s gonna cost a ransom

 

[TheBloodyNine]

Going to try to actually answer the question? Or is that too much for you?

I did. You are choosing the be obtuse about it because your favorite coach got made to look like the complete moron we all say he is last night! Par for the course as always. Can’t wait to see what you come up with next.

 

[True Blue]

You seem extremely caught up on this idea that a fan MUST know that a player is good in order for the player to actually be good. You're arguing something that only makes sense in the 5th dimension and no one knows how to answer that so far.

You said you knew. Which makes you full of of shit. You also said Granato developed Miller in Wisconsin. You can produce absolutely no such evidence as it does not exist.

NO ONE knew about Fox. Most NHL pundits had him as probably being a nice 2nd pair offensive defenseman. So too did this board. He did not start playing that way initially. Then took it to the next level. And now the level after that. That did not happen in Harvard or Hartford or in Long Island. That happened after he joined the team.

Miller did not look like this in Wisconsin. This board was crying about how his development was being hurt.

BOTH players become better after they got here. Want to claim you knew? Crock of crap. Want to place thanks in the stars? Sure. I tend to believe in a bit more tangible things. Like NHL coaching staffs and NHL development.

 

[Tob]

If Brannstrom went in that Stone trade, I'd imagine it starts with Lundkvist and Vitali and a 1st as the start of the offer.