Speculation: Roster Building Thread LXXXI - All along the Watch Tower

[jay from jersey]

Beniers is gone by 5.

And I'll definitely take someone in he mold of Bergeron/Cirelli.

You think he’s got that kind of high end skill?

 

[UnSandvich]

You think he’s got that kind of high end skill?

I at the very least do. While I don't see him as a star 1C, I think he's looking at potentially being a low-end 1C/elite (like Top 3 in the league) 2C. Size, skill, skating, defensive ability, he's got it all

 

[Anthony5967]

You grow to appreciate guys like Rooney and Blackwell because they don't take anything for granted and bust their asses every time they are on the ice.I only wish some of the veterans on this team did the same

Think about it—Kreider would only have to do that if he needed the money. He was good last year because he wanted the cash. Now, time to coast!

 

[SRHRangers]

You think he’s got that kind of high end skill?

Yes I do. Think he will be the Jack of all trades 2C that this franchise is lacking.

Think he's a better version of Lundell from last draft.

And I would definitely take Lundell here.

 

[Trxjw]

Last ranking i saw had like 4 or 5 UoM kids in the top 10-15 . Im far from a scout or any of the amateurs here, but that isn't a plus in my column for any of them including Beniers. All that says to me is they are a well oiled machine and a product of the sum of their parts.

Is there even a stand out "wow factor" Center in the top 10? Not from what I've read.

3 guys are playing at Michigan this season and are in the top-10. All of whom were widely viewed as top-10 picks before the season even started. So it's not like they banded together to vault themselves into undeserving positions. Power, Johnson, and Beniers have been highly touted prospects for a while now. Hughes is a Michigan commit but is playing with the USNTDP this season.

There's no "wow" center at the top of this class. Beniers is the best center available according to most. Some people think he's the next Toews and some people think he tops out as a good 2C. Either way he'd be a great addition to this team. His game would compliment our skilled wingers very well. You don't need to look very far to see examples of kids who were taken in the top-10 who projected as "good" two-way centers only to blossom into much more. Lundell was panned by a lot of people around here last year as not having enough offensive "wow factor" in his game and he's scoring at a PPG in Liga and was one of the best players on the ice at the WJC. One could easily make the argument that we have enough "wow" and need to balance things out a bit.

That being said, this team is probably going to have to hit the trade market to land a proven top center or prospect with the pedigree fans seem to want. The good news is they've built up the assets to make that kind of move if they feel so inclined.

 

[SRHRangers]

Raty or Johnson?

Let's start this chit early

Johnson.

 

[duhmetreE]

well many bashed Ruff now look

NYR will figure out though . Injuries suck

Who knew, Ruff should have been promoted and Martin hired.

but replacing Ruff with Martin has been an amazing turn around for the defense. I didn't realize Ruff played such a huge part of our offense.

 

[True Blue]

If that's how you want to parse and interpret my post, have at it. I didn't say any of that, so I don't see why I have to defend that position.

How is one supposed to interpret this:

Miller got out of a bad system and was put in a position to succeed. Great. That's not a knock on our staff or evidence of development.

You are stating that Miller playing well is not evidence of development. Considering the trash heap that Wisconsin was last year and the howls here on how he was being ruined by Granato, that leaves only one possible choice. That he developed on his own, while skating in the back yard with Lafreniere. Or was his play exactly this way ever since he learned to play defense and Granato just held him back?

 

[True Blue]

The mentality is that all a coach can really do to develop youth is to give them tons of ice time and otherwise step away like EA sports or something. Need PP1 time off the bat, 1st line too, the more the player struggles the more ice time they need of course. So if you think that way, then a coach can only ruin a player but not develop them, which is why you and @Edge are spinning your wheels trying to use logic with these guys. So Miller, Fox et al 'developed themselves' by just getting ice time, Quinn can't really get' credit' for that, anyone can give ice time. But Kakko and Laf are being controlled more., so Quinn is clearly ruining them.

That is a pretty good explanation of the mentality. That has to be it. Otherwise, the only other choice is that people just make say whatever they can in efforts not to give those that they detest any credit. Of course that comes full circle that one of the reasons that they detest the coach is because he is not heaping on ice time from go on these players.

 

[True Blue]

So, in your estimation... Is David Quinn or Jacques Martin responsible for Miller's 'growth' as a defender?

The real answer is both. That said, if the coach gets the damnations, then he owns all the accolades. No one praises a President's chief of staff for good policy advice. No one mentions Scotty Bowman's assistant coaches. No one pins a loosing record on the assistant coach.

 

[Kovalev27]

You think he’s got that kind of high end skill?

spoiler he doesn’t

 

[Daves a mess]

Think about it—Kreider would only have to do that if he needed the money. He was good last year because he wanted the cash. Now, time to coast!

He's certainly playing that way. I'm kind of surprised that.

Didn't think we'd see this Chris Kreider for at least 3 seasons.

I dont ever look to criticize his play because I like the guy, but I constantly catch myself not even realizing that he's suited up until he gets the puck out of the d end or completes a dump in after 50 seconds of nada.

I don't even hear anyone on the Ranger side ( Quinn, fans, announcers, journalists, posters here) use the word "power forward" anymore in regards to his style of play.

I'm sure he'll pick it up but this contract may be ultimately a Redden.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

Beniers is gone by 5.

And I'll definitely take someone in he mold of Bergeron/Cirelli.

Well it’s a good thing we’ll be picking top 5 then eh

Any of the kids off that Michigan team I would be happy with. Hughes, Johnson Power Beniers

 

[TheDirtyH]

This to me is the type of excuse I am talking about! It’s about “what the kids have done”. It’s about if they ‘are the game breaking talents we thought they are’.

Look, take my word for it. Kakko and Laf are talented. They are also teenagers, the NHL is a tough league to play in for kids. But we as an organization cannot afford to drop the ball on two top 2 picks. We got the talent, now — management — must turn that talent into top special players in the NHL.

Blaming what you got to work with with these two, nah, that don’t fly for me. And even becoming “good players” eventually aren’t even remotely enough. Not even remotely. We must turn them into great players. DQ got Kakko focusing on defense and gives him minimal PP time. Is that the right way?

You've said it perfectly. We can all be encouraged by Fox and Miller or Chytil and Buchnevich (I guess) from a "development" pov, and it's nice to have these guys work out. But what's our track record look like with top 10 picks?

We're all done and over Lias Andersson at this point, but that was a colossal failure. That we couldn't even turn him into an NHLer is really discouraging. And many of us had concerns and complaints from the beginning about how he was utilized and what kinds of support he was or wasn't getting (that is, from what we can see as fans). It's fine and easy to say now that he just wasn't ever going to work out, but then you have to take the same stance with an Adam Fox or K'Andre Miller.

Kravtsov? The jury's still out but his time in NA pretty much mirrors the time Lias spent here and Kakko's first season.

It's just not satisfactory to preach patience at this point. Of course you have to be patient, but this isn't a one season thing. Quinn has been here for three years. We've had very high picks since 2017. None of them are excelling. I'm glad Kakko has emerged as a capable 2-way forward, just like Chytil. But Chytil has a career high of 23 points. Will anyone be OK with Kakko being Jesper Fast? And will it really be enough to say the kid wasn't good enough in the end?

 

[duhmetreE]

The mentality is that all a coach can really do to develop youth is to give them tons of ice time and otherwise step away like EA sports or something. Need PP1 time off the bat, 1st line too, the more the player struggles the more ice time they need of course. So if you think that way, then a coach can only ruin a player but not develop them, which is why you and @Edge are spinning your wheels trying to use logic with these guys. So Miller, Fox et al 'developed themselves' by just getting ice time, Quinn can't really get' credit' for that, anyone can give ice time. But Kakko and Laf are being controlled more., so Quinn is clearly ruining them.

So, why is Mika still getting primo ice time? He's obviously struggling or there's something wrong. The problem becomes when some of these players ARE your best players and performing (ie Kakko ), yet they are over looked for the same struggling vets. I do not care about ice time as much as putting our highly touted kids in position to succeed.

All I want is for our #1 and #2 pick to succeed ( along with the team ) .. Sometimes, I feel they are the best options, whether its on the PP or on a 4v4/3v3 scenario... yet we get more of the same.

Have the balls to bench/demote the vets and give the kids a chance WHEN THEY DESERVE IT.

 

[Daves a mess]

Cheese Doodle will be back in a couple of weeks and we're going on a 7-1-2 streak. Kreidercand Zib will get and off we go.

Not gonna get into the 3-5-2 streak after the tease though.

 

[duhmetreE]

The real answer is both. That said, if the coach gets the damnations, then he owns all the accolades. No one praises a President's chief of staff for good policy advice. No one mentions Scotty Bowman's assistant coaches. No one pins a loosing record on the assistant coach.

This assistant coach came in and did a complete 180 with a horrid defense. Dont play stupid or make some generic analogy.

Would Miller look the same without Quinn? I dont know. Would Miller look the same without Martin? I have serious doubts

 

[True Blue]

This assistant coach came in and did a complete 180 with the defense.

Dont play stupid. Would Miller look the same without Quinn? I dont know. Would Miller look the same without Martin? I have serious doubts

Who is being stupid? Who goes around praising the work of Trotz's or Gallant's assistant coaches? Who praises Sullivan's assistant coaches.

You can have whatever doubts you feel like and I have stated that the real answer is that of course Martin has had an influence. But seeing as to the development and progress the defense had last year from the first game to the last with Ruff and not Martin, I am going with the fact that Quinn gets his kudos for player development.

 

[Fitzy]

You've said it perfectly. We can all be encouraged by Fox and Miller or Chytil and Buchnevich (I guess) from a "development" pov, and it's nice to have these guys work out. But what's our track record look like with top 10 picks?

We're all done and over Lias Andersson at this point, but that was a colossal failure. That we couldn't even turn him into an NHLer is really discouraging. And many of us had concerns and complaints from the beginning about how he was utilized and what kinds of support he was or wasn't getting (that is, from what we can see as fans). It's fine and easy to say now that he just wasn't ever going to work out, but then you have to take the same stance with an Adam Fox or K'Andre Miller.

Kravtsov? The jury's still out but his time in NA pretty much mirrors the time Lias spent here and Kakko's first season.

It's just not satisfactory to preach patience at this point. Of course you have to be patient, but this isn't a one season thing. Quinn has been here for three years. We've had very high picks since 2017. None of them are excelling. I'm glad Kakko has emerged as a capable 2-way forward, just like Chytil. But Chytil has a career high of 23 points. Will anyone be OK with Kakko being Jesper Fast? And will it really be enough to say the kid wasn't good enough in the end?

I realize the optics if Kakko and Laf top out as second line players would be disappointing, but TBH I could care less where the star players on the roster come from as long as we don't have to sign them all out of UFA (Gaborik, Richards), or trade for massive hauls (MSL, Nash, Yandle) like older Ranger cup competing squads.

Fox, Shesty, Miller all look well on their way to being perennial all star players. Where they were drafted is decidedly less important than the fact that they are homegrown and RFA cost controlled for over a half decade.

So if in 4 years NYR are in a position where Kakko and Lafreniere are both 50 point players instead of 80 point players, we will all be rightfully disappointed, but the results should be gauged as a whole rather than any individual player. Three lines of relatively balanced scoring is super important in this league, and even a 2nd line player out of a top pick is better than nothing.

We've also got such an abundance of riches at the defensive position in prospects that it's hard to envision the surplus cupboard not being used in a move for a star forward.

 

[True Blue]

I don't know how much that would actually be worth.

I've heard this draft is supposed to be BRUTAL.

The top-15 has some players that have a chance to be excellent complimentary players. And off course, if I was betting on pure "elite", it's Wallstedt.

 

[Kovalev27]

By the way Jack Eichel is starting to play like he could care less. It’s pretty obvious watching him he’s checked out

 

[TheDirtyH]

I realize the optics if Kakko and Laf top out as second line players would be disappointing, but TBH I could care less where the star players on the roster come from as long as we don't have to sign them all out of UFA (Gaborik, Richards), or trade for massive hauls (MSL, Nash, Yandle) like older Ranger cup competing squads.

Fox, Shesty, Miller all look well on their way to being perennial all star players. Where they were drafted is decidedly less important than the fact that they are homegrown and RFA cost controlled for over a half decade.

So if in 4 years NYR are in a position where Kakko and Lafreniere are both 50 point players instead of 80 point players, we will all be rightfully disappointed, but the results should be gauged as a whole rather than any individual player. Three lines of relatively balanced scoring is super important in this league, and even a 2nd line player out of a top pick is better than nothing.

We've also got such an abundance of riches at the defensive position in prospects that it's hard to envision the surplus cupboard not being used in a move for a star forward.

Wasn't this the lesson of the last 'window'? You need superstars. You need players at the top of the draft. It's not just optics, it's results and it does matter. Nobody will be complaining about Fox and Shesterkin and Miller (who 12 games in is a little early to speak that highly of) if they excel, you're right. But having depth and churning out top ten picks that fall two levels down from where they're projected every time is not acceptable. It's a huge red flag about our player development -- if that's how it ends up, which I'm not saying outright.

I mean how does last season go with our two all world forwards being second line players?

 

[Tob]

Wonder if Vancouver would be interested in Gauthier+2nd for Virtanen. Power forward Benning seems to like enough and cap relief for Vancouver plus $ saved.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

By the way Jack Eichel is starting to play like he could care less. It’s pretty obvious watching him he’s checked out

Maybe we can trade all of our great prospects for him and have two top centers going through the motions.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Wonder if Vancouver would be interested in Gauthier+2nd for Virtanen. Power forward Benning seems to like enough and cap relief for Vancouver plus $ saved.

I was reading about Virtanen by a Canucks fan, it was one person but he did NOT like him at all.