Speculation: Roster Building Thread IV (2021 Offseason) - Bob Dylan turns 80 & "The times they are a changing!"

[Gardner McKay]

That’s the thing . Adding depth is going to bump prospects . Fans came complain if guys are in the AHL

I don't necessarily think this is the case. At least, it shouldn't be under a new coach. You evaluate in training camp, preseason and then all during the regular season. Depth players can sit sometimes. That is what they are there for.

 

[WojtekWolski86]

"If he hasn’t already, I think Armstrong will gauge the interest around the league. He has to. Tarasenko has two years left on his contract, and with a $7.5 million cap hit, the Blues need production out of that position at that cost. Some might say that Tarasenko will be OK when he gets more games under his belt following his third shoulder surgery, and they may be right. But from a team-dynamic perspective — the desire to suit up a blue-collar, hardworking lineup — the Blues may feel the need to go in a different direction, and Tarasenko may want that, too.

As far as his declining value, it is what it is. I don’t know that Tarasenko is going to score 35 goals next year and reraise his stock. So at this point, with Armstrong saying the championship window is still open, he has to decide “Can Tarasenko help this team?” And if the GM doesn’t think he can, then he needs to find a “hockey trade” because the Blues would benefit tremendously from player(s) at $7.5 million in cap space who can either score or play within the system. Tarasenko does have a no-trade clause, so he has some control."

mostly a non-answer

It would be a classic Rangers (Sather) move to pass on this guy during the draft, pick a bust of a prospect, and then trade for Tarasenko after he is broken, washed up and overpaid for his current relative value.

 

[bleedblue94]

But you can literally do the exact same thing if he is one year left on his deal...once he has a year left you can make that exact same decision to sign him or trade him in the offseason. The team interested in trading for him can try and work an extension with the deal as well, same as the other way.

The NMC doesn't matter. It doesn't kick in until the last year. If they know he won't re-sign they can trade him before 7/1/23. If they're out of it at the deadline, he hasn't signed, and they want to trade him I am sure they will be able to do so. It is very rare that a player actually exercises a NTC in that situation to not be traded to a contender.

As for your question other than Stamkos - I have no idea and I don't know why it matters.

it matters bc it shows that this structure is atypical, and it is for a reason, no one pays rfas top dollar with limited term and then adds a nmc in the final year. Literally no one is going to model a future contract after the Matthews one. You are headstrong in defending and dismissing the issues in it so I'm not going to keep repeating common sense, but the fact you cant name one other player with such a structure and the leafs are uniformly cited as a example of bad cap management speaks to my points.

 

[romba]

It would be a classic Rangers (Sather) move to pass on this guy during the draft, pick a bust of a prospect, and then trade for Tarasenko after he is broken, washed up and overpaid for his current relative value.

This is the right answer

 

[SA16]

it matters bc it shows that this structure is atypical, and it is for a reason, no one pays rfas top dollar with limited term and then adds a nmc in the final year. Literally no one is going to model a future contract after the Matthews one. You are headstrong in defending and dismissing the issues in it so I'm not going to keep repeating common sense, but the fact you cant name one other player with such a structure and the leafs are uniformly cited as a example of bad cap management speaks to my points.

So if Matthews said "I will sign for 5 x 11.6 or I will not play" you would just let him hold out? Knowing that, if you let him hold out you cannot spend that extra money elsewhere because you need to keep that cap space available in case he decides to play down the line. His play is worth more than 11.6M. It doesn't really matter when in his career he is. All you are doing is hurting yourself and making the team worse to prove a point. It doesn't "set a precedent" as everyone likes to say because all situations are unique.

I don't know why you need similar contracts. Things change. "It's always been done that way" and such is not good reasoning. His 5 year deal will likely end up better for the Leafs than if they went 8 because they can sign him to an 8 year deal next spanning from age 27-34 and not have to worry about having several late 30 years on at the end.

 

[jay from jersey]

So many no names came up to have success with the Pens. Is it because Crosby is just so good he makes anyone look great, or maybe because these skilled prospects were given the chance to show their stuff with an elite player and proved their abilities? When our guys (Strome) prove abilities with Panarin consistently we scoff. When Pitt's guys do it we all salivate at their no-name's success out of no where.

I've come around on this and our young guys need to be consistently mixed in more with the vets next year to raise confidence and improve their scoring(to increase confidence!). The kids line is dumb and was an attempt by Quinn to hide them from difficult opposition and minimize their ice time to eek out a few more wins and it was a PR success but wasted some key development.

Also PP time is overrated but confidence is not and if PP time bring confidence then give the youth more of it!!!

KK improved his defensive responsibility, give the guy some serious PP time jfc. And Laf showed flashes of tremendous skill, get the guy some heavy PP time! Make a PP1A and PP1B with a 60/40 split, not 85/15.

Agree with everything said here. What they also need to do is run the same system in Hartford that the rangers ru . For better or worse. When guys like Guntzel, sheary, rust, bluger, etc come up from the farm, it’s like they fit seamlessly with the big picture on the ice. It takes a lot of the jitters away and muscle memory kicks in. It’s very important

 

[Daves a mess]

Everyone ready to win the lottery again tomorrow?

We gonna have Steve's badge? If we do, watch out Buffalo..

 

[SA16]

So many no names came up to have success with the Pens. Is it because Crosby is just so good he makes anyone look great, or maybe because these skilled prospects were given the chance to show their stuff with an elite player and proved their abilities? When our guys (Strome) prove abilities with Panarin consistently we scoff. When Pitt's guys do it we all salivate at their no-name's success out of no where.

I've come around on this and our young guys need to be consistently mixed in more with the vets next year to raise confidence and improve their scoring(to increase confidence!). The kids line is dumb and was an attempt by Quinn to hide them from difficult opposition and minimize their ice time to eek out a few more wins and it was a PR success but wasted some key development.

Also PP time is overrated but confidence is not and if PP time bring confidence then give the youth more of it!!!

KK improved his defensive responsibility, give the guy some serious PP time jfc. And Laf showed flashes of tremendous skill, get the guy some heavy PP time! Make a PP1A and PP1B with a 60/40 split, not 85/15.

How many no names have they really had?

Crosby played a lot with guys like Kunitz, Dupuis, Guerin, Neal, Hornqvist who weren't exactly nothing players before playing with him. There was Sheary who was clearly a product of him and he has done nothing since and Guentzel who was the AHL leading scorer at 20 years old when called up. It's also kind of been a revolving door there it's not like they gave any of them, other than Guentzel, a long term deal and kept them for a while.

 

[jay from jersey]

Only problem is he did not shut them down.

Yea what did Matthews have 3-4 posts? More puck luck then anything. Marner just disappeared like usual when the hitting/D increases. I mean you can’t blame Danault. Matthews is one of the best in the world. He’s going to generate chances. Defensively, Danault played well enough I guess. But I’m not jumping out of my chair to sign him to a multi- year deal at 6.5-7 per. I still think there are much better options the rangers should pursue. Don’t like his age that much, don’t like the amount of money per year, don’t like the length, not crazy bout his size, but the way he plays the game is something I like and we need. I just think we can get somebody with more in the like column

 

[MyLoveIsBlue]

I would take him any time if it weren’t for our cap situation.

Toronto has a very flawed roster besides 4-5 spots on the roster. They also have had an insane turnover on that roster. They are the team that by far has been hurt the most by the stagnant cap. The teams that are doing well is to a large extent the deep teams.

Hockey is a team game and every shift matter the same. Being a good team 22 minutes a night wont help you if you aren’t very good the remaining 38 minutes.

This all stems from Marner’s unwillingness to play the goal-line at 5v4, which you can fact-check by asking the right people. Toronto’s best version of their power play all season was Nylander and Marner rotating along the left wall, with one of them playing the goal-line as a passer. It gave the top unit more flexibility, opened up passing lanes, created more motion and unpredictability.
But their $11 million winger wasn’t willing to do it.
Game 7 Analysis: Where on Earth do the Toronto Maple Leafs go from here?

 

[Raspewtin]

I know this won't be popular here but if toronto is going to make a stupid move I'd love William Nylander

 

[rangersfansince08]

I know this won't be popular here but if toronto is going to make a stupid move I'd love William Nylander

Can he still play center?

 

[rangersfansince08]

What would it take to trade up for McTavish?

 

[rangers1314]

I know this won't be popular here but if toronto is going to make a stupid move I'd love William Nylander

If the move is indeed a dumb, panic move....what are you getting him for?

 

[NYR Viper]

I know this won't be popular here but if toronto is going to make a stupid move I'd love William Nylander

Not stupid, he's a fantastic player. My question has always been, can he play center.

I have had similar feelings for Keller out of Arizona (minus the contract of course, just in terms of players). I watch him play and I would love him as a player but the question always circles back to, can he play center.

 

[huerter]

I would love him as a player

You have to love the person before you love the player. This is a people business.

 

[Ola]

This all stems from Marner’s unwillingness to play the goal-line at 5v4, which you can fact-check by asking the right people. Toronto’s best version of their power play all season was Nylander and Marner rotating along the left wall, with one of them playing the goal-line as a passer. It gave the top unit more flexibility, opened up passing lanes, created more motion and unpredictability.
But their $11 million winger wasn’t willing to do it.
Game 7 Analysis: Where on Earth do the Toronto Maple Leafs go from here?

Interesting, have not heard about that.

 

[bleedblue94]

So if Matthews said "I will sign for 5 x 11.6 or I will not play" you would just let him hold out? Knowing that, if you let him hold out you cannot spend that extra money elsewhere because you need to keep that cap space available in case he decides to play down the line. His play is worth more than 11.6M. It doesn't really matter when in his career he is. All you are doing is hurting yourself and making the team worse to prove a point. It doesn't "set a precedent" as everyone likes to say because all situations are unique.

I don't know why you need similar contracts. Things change. "It's always been done that way" and such is not good reasoning. His 5 year deal will likely end up better for the Leafs than if they went 8 because they can sign him to an 8 year deal next spanning from age 27-34 and not have to worry about having several late 30 years on at the end.

absolutely I would've held him out, and if you remember the extension was signed in season ha.

his play is absolutely not worth the 3rd highest cap hit in history

you are literally implying that players can name their price with the first line of your response. that is essentially what toronto did and they are universally criticized for doing that and the contracts they gave out. you keep ignoring that no one else is following their recipe except maybe edm, and that hasn't exactly worked out either...

furthermore, i have no issue signing someone up to 1 year prior to ufa age, that allows you time to make a decision and negotiate, BUT you dont pay players during those years top 3 money. if you do you are now establishing a high dollar amount that the player will negotiate their next contract for AND you are giving away any leverage you have during rfa years. What is the point of rfa status and team control if you are basically saying players can name their own salary.

this thread is literally filled with salary structure plans on how NOT to be in toronto's shoes, with proposals of how to maximize the benefits of players on lower contracts during their rfa years and the need to keep a steady stream of lower salary players to offset the progressively bigger salaries as the years go on, and no one would be suggesting to copy the contract mistakes of toronto with our young talent. Literally NO ONE wants to be the leafs right now, no one...

 

[CLW]

Matthews and Marner are spoiled brats. The root problem is that they were not willing to carry their team and they did not have the drive to win. Fortunately I think Laf and Kakko are very different personalities who are determined to win, not look good on highlight reels primarily. You can see Kakko has a lot of Rantanen's team game approach, doing a lot of the same 200ft things on the ice already and he hates to lose. Matthew's and Marner's game is basically to set up Matthews for scoring chances.

The point to take away is to be very certain who the core pieces are to build around. I was very unimpressed by the Rangers' vets this season. Zib, Strome, Panarin cherry picked far too much. The Rangers need a real coach who can command the respect of the veterans as well as the kids and create a Team. I think this was what Drury was referring to when he talked about that the "roles within the team need to be clear. Each player has to know exactly what his job is every time he jumps over the rink side".

The above observation leads to the next. After three years there are still so many unanswered questions regarding the roster. Are Strome and Chytil 200ft play off centers? Both have good offensive stats, but can they improve sufficiently at the other end to be worth investing in long term for a contending team? Is Zib healthy enough to sign to a binding contract? If not they should be traded. And so on.

 

[mas0764]

I remain concerned that we really have just 4 "good bet" under-23 forwards here for the long term.

We have under-23 defensive prospects/options for days.

But where are the forwards to match? Lafreniere, Kakko, Chytil and Kravtsov. Gauthier and Howden are likely on the outs.

Not loving the lack of young forwards in our system. I really don't understand the rush to end the rebuild and compete without adding another couple top-6 or top-9 types in the 18-23 age range, even if you are doubling down on Zibanejad as the 1C moving forward.

 

[Bluto]

I want to trade Georgiev and bring back Lundqvist.

 

[Chalfdiggity3]

Yea what did Matthews have 3-4 posts? More puck luck then anything. Marner just disappeared like usual when the hitting/D increases. I mean you can’t blame Danault. Matthews is one of the best in the world. He’s going to generate chances. Defensively, Danault played well enough I guess. But I’m not jumping out of my chair to sign him to a multi- year deal at 6.5-7 per. I still think there are much better options the rangers should pursue. Don’t like his age that much, don’t like the amount of money per year, don’t like the length, not crazy bout his size, but the way he plays the game is something I like and we need. I just think we can get somebody with more in the like column

Limiting those two players to what he did is excellent and exactly what you want from a shutdown center who can play a 200ft game. There are better options but they require a trade. Danualt would just cost money. While pushing the bum strome out of here(hopefully). Also you talk about his age like he is old. 28-29 is getting a vet guy in his prime. Strome is 27 and does NOTHING that Danault does and honestly the amount youre talking about paying strome on his next contract is the same price point.

Give me the guy that can do everything and help to shut down a top offensive line in the league.

 

[rangersfansince08]

I remain concerned that we really have just 4 "good bet" under-23 forwards here for the long term.

We have under-23 defensive prospects/options for days.

But where are the forwards to match? Lafreniere, Kakko, Chytil and Kravtsov. Gauthier and Howden are likely on the outs.

Not loving the lack of young forwards in our system. I really don't understand the rush to end the rebuild and compete without adding another couple top-6 or top-9 types in the 18-23 age range, even if you are doubling down on Zibanejad as the 1C moving forward.

4 isn't bad. Most of the league would love that set of players. We'll likely add another one via trade and in the draft.

 

[LaffyTaffyNYR]

Give me Ryan O Reily plz and thanks

 

[Chalfdiggity3]

Give me Ryan O Reily plz and thanks

Would love it but would cost an insane amount.