Speculation: Roster Building Thread III (2021 Offseason) - “Simple Jack”, "Will over Skill", "Drury in a Hurry"?

[DialUp]

From Carp's piece today - talking to anonymous former Rangers (all of them didn't seem to like the JD and Gorton firings, JD especially):
"As far as young talent’s concerned, I think they’ve done a good job. They should be a team that is looked upon as a team that can compete in the next two or three years, four years maybe. "

Trying to figure out if they mean IN three years, or FOR three years. Oof on both them though. Some teams are technically contenders for 7-8 year windows.

 

[Kodiak]

• Lock up Fox long term.

Absolute no-brainer

• Determine if they want to lock up Shesh long term.

I don't think there's much of a choice. He's too old to bridge and he's performed up to expectations. Sign him for 5 years at 5-5.5m.

• Have a chat with Kreider with what they think his role should be going forward (3rd line with PP1 time)

Hopefully that conversation includes the point that with a reduction of ES minutes, there's an expectation that his intensity is ramped up from shift to shift. If he can some grind to his game, Kreider can be a useful player for a long, long time. As a speedy grinder and PP specialist, he might be able to play another 10 years in the NHL.

 

[Kodiak]

'So how does Seattle sound?'

"Sounds like you forgot I have a NMC, Dru."

 

[Synergy27]

Wait. You are using some random posters view on a internet message board as somehow that validates your very wrong opinion?

Actually, that is exactly what it is. You still want Stuetzel as opposed to Lafreniere or think that he was developed better?

When did I ever say either of those things?

You consistently misrepresent people’s ideas and then call them stupid for them. I assume it’s trolling, but, maybe it’s something else?

 

[TheBloodyNine]

From Carp's piece today - talking to anonymous former Rangers (all of them didn't seem to like the JD and Gorton firings, JD especially):
"As far as young talent’s concerned, I think they’ve done a good job. They should be a team that is looked upon as a team that can compete in the next two or three years, four years maybe. "

Trying to figure out if they mean IN three years, or FOR three years. Oof on both them though. Some teams are technically contenders for 7-8 year windows.

I think the more pressing question is who is everyone’s best guess at who these players are??

 

[DialUp]

I think the more pressing question is who is everyone’s best guess at who these players are??

Mine is it's all the same player and it's Slats

 

[TheBloodyNine]

Mine is it's all the same player and it's Slats

One has to be Mess. And one, player A, recently played for the team because he referred to Quinn as “David” and seemed to have a better knowledge of his as a coach. Fast?

 

[duhmetreE]

Maybe I'm hopeful, but I think Fox takes a crazy hometown discount.

He wants to be a Ranger. There's no other team he wants to play for.

8 x 6ish is a steal and he gets a guaranteed $50M playing for his team.

Life is good.

 

[Synergy27]

Oh pal, its very genuous. You want to start rebuilding now because you have an even younger core than you had?

The cold hard truth is that the Rangers need more players like Panarin, Trouba and Kreider now, not fewer.

Holier than thou is not for you or me to judge.

No one is advocating for the thing you are criticizing them for. Questioning the timing of the Panarin signing and whether or not he aligns well with this team’s contention window does not equal wanting an even younger team or 20 ELCs.

That is you purposely contorting an idea to support your own. That’s disingenuous.

 

[Gluten Free Breadman]

That's the reason firing JD and Gorton was nuts. I doubt not making the playoffs was the real reason they got axed, or even that the team mid-rebuild was a bit lopsided. Any reasonable person understand this. It's like cooking it takes the time it takes.

• Young players need to mature
• Roster balance issues fixed
• A competent head coach found
• A good team wide system implemented
• System needs to become second nature with the players
• Playoff experience has to be gained
  
• and so on

All this won't happen overnight. This is the reason I thought shooting for the playoffs this season was unrealistic and futile. Basic pieces were obviously missing. Teams like Tampa and Colorado took time to get ready.

Take away the conspiracies about Dolan losing his drug fueled shit, and wouldn't your list be the exact reasons that they were fired? None of that was happening.

• Young players were not put in positions to succeed, so they seemed immature. could also be time
• Roster was two different teams, Rooks and in the prime win now skilled vets
• A competent coach could have been found for the last three years
• the president and GM are ultimately responsible for the systems
• This takes time and reps with an experienced coach
• well yes, playoff experience is needed and Gorts and JD and Quinn failed at this too.

Time is definitely important, but as they say, there is no better time than now.

 

[haohmaru]

No one is advocating for the thing you are criticizing them for. Questioning the timing of the Panarin signing and whether or not he aligns well with this team’s contention window does not equal wanting an even younger team or 20 ELCs.

That is you purposely contorting an idea to support your own. That’s disingenuous.

Every team in the league would be happy to have an ill-timed in-his-prime 29 year old Panarin on their team. This narrative that it doesn't line up with this or that is just as disingenuous as anything else I've read. Your crystal ball doesn't forsee trades or how this team will build moving forward and Panarin's probably had the best 111 game run in the history of one of the NHL's most venerable franchises.

I don't see anyone placing a value on what he brings to the table as a teammate, as a confidence-building superstar, as a guy to take the pressure off "OMG Kakko has one goal in 10 games!!!" alarmists, as a reason for short-term optimism as well as competing for a playoff spot well before anyone had a right to think we would. Those pressure games are invaluable to young assets trying to figure it out.

Honestly, I think some of you really, REALLY overthink this.

 

[haohmaru]

Take away the conspiracies about Dolan losing his drug fueled shit, and wouldn't your list be the exact reasons that they were fired? None of that was happening.

• Young players were not put in positions to succeed, so they seemed immature. could also be time
• Roster was two different teams, Rooks and in the prime win now skilled vets
• A competent coach could have been found for the last three years
• the president and GM are ultimately responsible for the systems
• This takes time and reps with an experienced coach
• well yes, playoff experience is needed and Gorts and JD and Quinn failed at this too.

Time is definitely important, but as they say, there is no better time than now.

If you read the the tea leaves, particularly from Brooks, this wasn't a rash decision by Dolan. This was clearly in the works for some time and JD intimated as much when discussing this in a really limited fashion.

Honestly, the further I distance myself from the shock of that day the more I can make sense out of it - particularly when watching playoff hockey. I mean, I certainly get it.

 

[Synergy27]

Every team in the league would be happy to have an ill-timed in-his-prime 29 year old Panarin on their team. This narrative that it doesn't line up with this or that is just as disingenuous as anything else I've read. Your crystal ball doesn't forsee trades or how this team will build moving forward and Panarin's probably had the best 111 game run in the history of one of the NHL's most venerable franchises.

I don't see anyone placing a value on what he brings to the table as a teammate, as a confidence-building superstar, as a guy to take the pressure off "OMG Kakko has one goal in 10 games!!!" alarmists, as a reason for short-term optimism as well as competing for a playoff spot well before anyone had a right to think we would. Those pressure games are invaluable to young assets trying to figure it out.

Honestly, I think some of you really, REALLY overthink this.

I don’t have s crystal ball. I fully admit that I might be wrong. And don’t get me wrong, I love watching Panarin day in and day out.

That said, completely dismissing the idea that the timing may end up being unfortunate is absurd. It’s not a clearly wrong idea. We’ll never know if it was the optimal approach.

But again, that’s not even what I’m saying. All I’m saying is that there exists some middle road between what this team was for the last two years and the 20 ELCs extreme people keep imposing on others despite no one actually advocating for that. And, it’s very much reasonable to think that said middle road may have been a more optimal approach.

If the Rangers win the Cup on the back of a still dominant Panarin I’ll happily concede the argument.

 

[haohmaru]

I don’t have s crystal ball. I fully admit that I might be wrong. And don’t get me wrong, I love watching Panarin day in and day out.

That said, completely dismissing the idea that the timing may end up being unfortunate is absurd. It’s not a clearly wrong idea. We’ll never know if it was the optimal approach.

But again, that’s not even what I’m saying. All I’m saying is that there exists some middle road between what this team was for the last two years and the 20 ELCs extreme people keep imposing on others despite no one actually advocating for that. And, it’s very much reasonable to think that said middle road may have been a more optimal approach.

If the Rangers win the Cup on the back of a still dominant Panarin I’ll happily concede the argument.

IDK - the sad truth is that, if your measure for "success" is a Cup, then 97+% of teams fail every year.

I'll put it this way, if you can get a Panarin, ie.... in their prime elite/top 5 player, for "nothing" (ie... no trade assets going out and a competitive contract), then I think you have to do that every time if it makes cap sense. I don't buy the "wrong timing" argument because that isn't predicated on a realistic timeline - ie... when and if a player like Panarin becomes available. The likelihood of that coinciding precisely when you need it to is probably close to zero.

 

[Synergy27]

IDK - the sad truth is that, if your measure for "success" is a Cup, then 97+% of teams fail every year.

I'll put it this way, if you can get a Panarin, ie.... in their prime elite/top 5 player, for "nothing" (ie... no trade assets going out and a competitive contract), then I think you have to do that every time if it makes cap sense. I don't buy the "wrong timing" argument because that isn't predicated on a realistic timeline - ie... when and if a player like Panarin becomes available. The likelihood of that coinciding precisely when you need it to is probably close to zero.

All fair enough man. I don’t even necessarily disagree. Hoping these MVP level performances continue and eventually become part of something resembling “success”, which I think you’d agree we haven’t achieved with him yet.

 

[Gluten Free Breadman]

If you read the the tea leaves, particularly from Brooks, this wasn't a rash decision by Dolan. This was clearly in the works for some time and JD intimated as much when discussing this in a really limited fashion.

Honestly, the further I distance myself from the shock of that day the more I can make sense out of it - particularly when watching playoff hockey. I mean, I certainly get it.

Sounds like we agree. That is why I called it a conspiracy.

 

[McRanger92]

Maybe I'm hopeful, but I think Fox takes a crazy hometown discount.

He wants to be a Ranger. There's no other team he wants to play for.

8 x 6ish is a steal and he gets a guaranteed $50M playing for his team.

Life is good.

The Rangers shouldnt plan for this, but id be shocked if Fox doesnt sign a very reasonable contract to stay long term

 

[HFsNumber1Heel]

The Rangers shouldnt plan for this, but id be shocked if Fox doesnt sign a very reasonable contract to stay long term

Fox is going to do the McD second deal, like 7 x $4.8 or something. Just a hunch.

 

[McRanger92]

Fox is going to do the McD second deal, like 7 x $4.8 or something. Just a hunch.

Lets hope, would be a game changer for their cap situation going forward

 

[Alluckks]

Tons of talks with Calgary for the last year. Rangers want players with some more hard play to their game. They liked Buch, they could use Strome. Tkachuk and Lindholm (right shot) could both easily play a top 6 RW role here. That's the match.

I think we move on from Strome regardless. Chytil needs to get more minutes. Danault would fit here like a glove.

Kreider staying on 3rd line but also playing PP1 net front works best for him, he can serve that role well.

Laf Zib Tkachuk/Lindholm
Panarin Chytil Kakko
Kreider Danault Kravstov

Sign good vets to mesh in with guys like Barron for the 4th line.

If we want to move on from Zib then that is a whole other rotation of chairs, but really it would be Zib going to another team for futures of sorts, and likely prospects/picks for a different 1C level player to come in. We would be acquiring the other player first so that we don't get handcuffed without a top line C.

Signing a vet to play on LD seems like a foregone conclusion. We've discussed plenty of options there.

 

[Bluto]

The rangers are building a team that is supposed to be able to compete for the cup for a decade, you don't just threaten that for one run at the cup (which is very unlikely to happen in the first place considering our team has only a handful of players that have even tasted playoff experience thus far). Let's remember the bigger picture here.

There are plenty of dynasties that let good players walk who still were successful and went on to win more cups. Sometimes you gotta self rent.

 

[FIRE DRURY]

Fox is going to do the McD second deal, like 7 x $4.8 or something. Just a hunch.

Seems like a pipe dream.

 

[Alluckks]

Fox at 5 x 5.5 is my ideal semi-realistic target

 

[The Crypto Guy]

A guy who in contention for the Norris his second NHL season is not getting anything less than 6M per....

Realistically he probably signs long term for 6.5-7 per. 6 if he really wants to give us the hometown deal.

Anything less than 7.5 and i’m doing cartwheels.

 

[CLW]

Take away the conspiracies about Dolan losing his drug fueled shit, and wouldn't your list be the exact reasons that they were fired? None of that was happening.

• Young players were not put in positions to succeed, so they seemed immature. could also be time
• Roster was two different teams, Rooks and in the prime win now skilled vets
• A competent coach could have been found for the last three years
• the president and GM are ultimately responsible for the systems
• This takes time and reps with an experienced coach
• well yes, playoff experience is needed and Gorts and JD and Quinn failed at this too.

Time is definitely important, but as they say, there is no better time than now.

And none of the above points are not fixable or abnormal in a rebuild situation.

Quinn was a major, but not fatal, mistake. The Rangers tried to find their own Brind'Amour but it failed, which happens.

Vets in their prime are a good protection for young rookies. Having vets like Panarin and Zib insulates you from being a Buffalo or NJ which is not a bad thing.

Kakko was a top 10 defensive forward at age 19-20, night and day compared to the previous season. Laf showed he was comfortable in the NHL towards the end. Miller took big strides. Jones showed promise. Chytil had good stats despite illness and injury. Kravtsov came in and showed talent. Fox had a Norris level season. Having kids not ready is part of a rebuild. If they were ready it would not be a rebuild.

The most crucial mistake was to expect a playoff run from this team, that's simply superficial thinking ignoring context. You can't just say, mid rebuild, that you got tired of being in a rebuild. Reality is that's where you are.

Now we don't know exactly what triggered the firings, if Gorton was dead set on keeping Quinn for example, then that would have been concerning but we just don't know yet.