Speculation: Roster Building Thread III (2021 Offseason) - “Simple Jack”, "Will over Skill", "Drury in a Hurry"?

[Machinehead]

I talked the other day about how certain players are of "fire your plans into the sun" caliber.

Panarin is one of those players.

You get Panarin and re-arrange the puzzle pieces later.

 

[TheDirtyH]

It’s not often you sign a player for 11+ mil per season and he overperforms based on that.

 

[Rangerboy030]

Chytil 1:1 for hertl is a mistake. And you want to compound it by adding in firsts?
Chytil may end up on the wings, but production wise Chytil at the same age out produced hertl with only 5v5 time. Hertl has significant injury history and is approaching ufa.
This is the type of move a franchise makes and ruins them. Please see brassard for Mika.

The way I conceptualise it is that the Buch trade effectively provides a replacement for Chytil in Holloway, and you'll notice that it's a single first, not "firsts" plural. More to the point, it's the 2022 first in the trade, which with that roster figures to be in the back half of the draft order. For the cost of that, as well as an early third and a prospect who will likely never be of particular use to us as a player in Reunanen due to our depth at LD, we add just about the perfect C that we need - great offensive output, good 2-way game, size, and excellent on faceoffs. Of course, the idea would be to resign him.

Fair play if you disagree with my reasoning, but between Holloway, retaining our first this year and also having Strome available as a trade chip, I think calling that a "franchise ruining move" is hyperbole if I'm being generous and hysteric if I'm not so nice.

 

[Kodiak]

If this was the reason they were signed to these contracts then that was dumb as f***. Leadership is the most overrated quality in players. Young guys grow into leaders, some very quickly. You can already see that with Adam Fox.

Until they do, you can easily supplement them with solid veteran signings. There's absolutely no need to commit long term, high dollars to players simply because you want them to be leaders. These contracts are going to bite us in the ass, especially the Kreider one which may result in us losing Buchnevich who is already a superior player.

I'll also add, the concept of Kreider being a leader is just terrible to me. The guy literally disappears simply due to effort for like a quarter of the season every year.

A couple of hot takes in there:

1. Leadership is dumb and overrated
2. You can plug any available veteran in and he will be a leader

I have to say, those takes would put you in the minority in most hockey circles. We have a young team that will be constantly in flux as players grow into roles and other players are moved out. There can be value in having stable leadership to see that through. Whether Kreider and Trouba are those guys is another conversation, but they appear to be the players that were chosen.

 

[Bruner4329]

A couple of hot takes in there:

1. Leadership is dumb and overrated
2. You can plug any available veteran in and he will be a leader

I have to say, those takes would put you in the minority in most hockey circles. We have a young team that will be constantly in flux as players grow into roles and other players are moved out. There can be value in having stable leadership to see that through. Whether Kreider and Trouba are those guys is another conversation, but they appear to be the players that were chosen.

Couldn't agree more. Too many people on this Board don't want anyone over 26 on this roster. Here is a hint. You need a good balance between youth and veterans. Look at the teams in the playoffs and those that have been successful on a consistent basis. I mean the best player for the Penguins so far this year in the playoffs is Carter and I guarantee most people on this Board would not have wanted him here with the Rangers if they were looking for this type player for a playoff run. Instead all these people want are draft picks and more draft picks, etc. This team really needed some leadership this year that was missing. I don't know what goes on in the locker room but from what I see on the ice guys like Trouba and Kreider are well respected by their teammates. Kreider is always the last off the ice after games acknowledging his teammates. BTW draft picks are always hit or miss. And I also don't understand the love for Chytl on this Board. The guy was a first round pick back in 2017 and 4 years later we are still wondering what type of player he is and what position he should be playing. I would have expected more by now in his development. Sure he has been getting 3rd line minutes but he still has limited vision on the ice and makes dumb passes.

 

[bobbop]

Your roster is never going to line up perfectly.

 

[bobbop]

A couple of hot takes in there:

1. Leadership is dumb and overrated
2. You can plug any available veteran in and he will be a leader

I have to say, those takes would put you in the minority in most hockey circles. We have a young team that will be constantly in flux as players grow into roles and other players are moved out. There can be value in having stable leadership to see that through. Whether Kreider and Trouba are those guys is another conversation, but they appear to be the players that were chosen.

A very lonely minority

 

[Kravtsov420]

Thank you. The most vocal critics this year, myself among them, were leery of exactly this. Kicking the development can down the road while relying on the highly paid vets to somehow try to sneak the team into the playoffs.

Complaining about Lafreniere and Kakko's ice time and production has been interpreted as the desire for instant gratification by many when in reality it's exactly the opposite.

Boom. Mic drop.

 

[East Coast Bias]

The problem with "leadership" isn't that it is overrated or not a thing - the problem is that we have no idea what goes on among these players and who is a leader. By nature hockey players and teams are private - compared to other sports. So you're not getting a ton of information beyond what they want you to know.

So people just make shit up and claim a guy's a leader. And it's inferences and arguments are largely just horseshit

 

[Off Sides]

The issue with Panarin was not Panarin, it was the timeline created. He is ~8-10 years older what they drafted from 2017 to 2020.

That is still the issue, in order to build team Panarin with other in their prime players, they made and are going to make more bad contract choices around his already present cap hit.

In order to build and maintain the players they drafted/traded for from 2017-2020 they will need to increase their cap hits, and they will eventually run out of cap space because of the bad contract choices they already made in order to build team Panarin.

 

[Savant]

Your roster is never going to line up perfectly.

Unless you are Tampa and the Salary Cap is irrelevant to you.

 

[JT Kreider]

I talked the other day about how certain players are of "fire your plans into the sun" caliber.

Panarin is one of those players.

You get Panarin and re-arrange the puzzle pieces later.

Especially if the other plan is to lose as much as possible and then we become the Buffalo Sabres where the losing stench latches onto everything in its wake and becomes so deeply ingrained in the organization its damn near impossible to get it off.

 

[Bluto]

brass for mika wasn't quite a win win. It was sacrificing long term for short term with salary considerations. Yes they came really close to SCF but at the expensive of a long term foundation.

The senators would still have sucked with zibanejad the last few years. That year was their only shot. That team hasnt been a zibby away from relevancy.
Sacrificing long term building blocks for a shot at the cup is part of the game. Turns out ottawa was right about their window. They took their shot and were a goal away from beating arguably the best team of the decade.

I compare it to the callahan + 2 1sts for MSL trade. We dont make the SCF without MSL.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

The senators would still have sucked with zibanejad the last few years. That year was their only shot. That team hasnt been a zibby away from relevancy.
Sacrificing long term building blocks for a shot at the cup is part of the game. Turns out ottawa was right about their window. They took their shot and were a goal away from beating arguably the best team of the decade.

I compare it to the callahan + 2 1sts for MSL trade. We dont make the SCF without MSL.

True, but Mika went on to become a 40 goal scorer who would have netted the sens much more than they got for Brassard.

Callahan pretty much sucked or was injured after the first 40 games of his Tampa extension

 

[Kodiak]

The issue with Panarin was not Panarin, it was the timeline created. He is ~8-10 years older what they drafted from 2017 to 2020.

That is still the issue, in order to build team Panarin with other in their prime players, they made and are going to make more bad contract choices around his already present cap hit.

In order to build and maintain the players they drafted from 2017-2020 they will need to increase their cap hits, and they will eventually run out of cap space because of the bad contract choices they already made in order to build team Panarin.

Panarin knew what he was signing on for. He knew he was not signing with a contender.

You can have a handful of core veterans to see the rebuild through. For better or worse, it looks like ours are Panarin, Kreider, Trouba, and Zibanejad (if resigned). Depending on how you manage the cap around them, it is possible to keep them around while the young players mature and start to become part of the core. Any other veterans (Strome, Buchnevich, Smith) should only be kept for as long as they are useful and not blocking younger players. Chytil looks like he could be the 2C, so Strome should go. Kakko and Kravtsov can be 1RW and 2RW, so Buchnevich should go. They are not likely to produce at the same rate immediately, but they can adequately fill those roles.

At least, that is how I would think it would work logically. Recent events may have tossed logic out the window, but that still remains to be seen.

 

[TheDirtyH]

Couldn't agree more. Too many people on this Board don't want anyone over 26 on this roster. Here is a hint. You need a good balance between youth and veterans. Look at the teams in the playoffs and those that have been successful on a consistent basis. I mean the best player for the Penguins so far this year in the playoffs is Carter and I guarantee most people on this Board would not have wanted him here with the Rangers if they were looking for this type player for a playoff run. Instead all these people want are draft picks and more draft picks, etc. This team really needed some leadership this year that was missing. I don't know what goes on in the locker room but from what I see on the ice guys like Trouba and Kreider are well respected by their teammates. Kreider is always the last off the ice after games acknowledging his teammates. BTW draft picks are always hit or miss. And I also don't understand the love for Chytl on this Board. The guy was a first round pick back in 2017 and 4 years later we are still wondering what type of player he is and what position he should be playing. I would have expected more by now in his development. Sure he has been getting 3rd line minutes but he still has limited vision on the ice and makes dumb passes.

Are we wondering what he is? He's got limited vision and makes dumb passes. He also transports the puck up the ice well, is a pretty good forechecker, and has one of the better shots on the team. He scores at a first line rate playing fourth line minutes with no special teams play at all. I think the problem isn't with whether you know what he is, but whether you're ready to see what he can be. What he is is a young center who has the tools to consistency crush bottom six minutes with rag-tag linemates. Can he play the penalty kill? Can he play with a superstar like Panarin and compliment him? We don't know that but that's not an issue of Chytil's not showing enough: he just hasn't been given the opportunity at all to this point.

That's most of my problem with the 'development' model taken by Quinn and Co. these past two seasons especially. There's not much more a player like Chytil can do or can prove in the role he's gotten. But succeeding in that role doesn't 'earn' him a new one, or even a tryout. What we don't know about these players is largely what we're not willing to test and see for ourselves. Who knew Buch was a penalty killer until he did it, and what did he do in one offseason to prove himself so much more defensively prepared to try? (He didn't, Martin just had a good idea)

 

[True Blue]

Thank you. The most vocal critics this year, myself among them, were leery of exactly this. Kicking the development can down the road while relying on the highly paid vets to somehow try to sneak the team into the playoffs.

Wait. You are using some random posters view on a internet message board as somehow that validates your very wrong opinion?

Complaining about Lafreniere and Kakko's ice time and production has been interpreted as the desire for instant gratification by many when in reality it's exactly the opposite.

Actually, that is exactly what it is. You still want Stuetzel as opposed to Lafreniere or think that he was developed better?

 

[bobbop]

Saying this as a counter to the idea that signing one of the most expensive players in the league to a long contract might not have been a great idea at the time is completely disingenuous and perfectly representative of the ad absurdum arguments that a lot of the holier than thou people on this board love to employ.

Oh pal, its very genuous. You want to start rebuilding now because you have an even younger core than you had?

The cold hard truth is that the Rangers need more players like Panarin, Trouba and Kreider now, not fewer.

Holier than thou is not for you or me to judge.

 

[The New Russian Five]

I think the team is going to be really really good next year. If going into the trade deadline Zibby is playing out of his mind and the Rangers are looking to be a dangerous team that could go deep, he might play himself out of New York but the Rangers would be foolish to trade him at that point.
Now if he's playing out of his mind and the Rangers are say 6th place... well then trade him.
But if they're first place and it looks like you can't afford him in the offseason.... then you have to self rent unfortunately. And if you win the SC then it isn't so awful.

The rangers are building a team that is supposed to be able to compete for the cup for a decade, you don't just threaten that for one run at the cup (which is very unlikely to happen in the first place considering our team has only a handful of players that have even tasted playoff experience thus far). Let's remember the bigger picture here.

 

[huerter]

Targets:

- 3 beauties
- 3 grizzled SOBs

 

[UAGoalieGuy]

I think these are the high level things that need to be done or decided this summer as I feel the Rangers are at a bit of a crossroad.

• Determine if they want to commit to Zib or not. If not they really should trade him and need to find a solution somewhere via trade.
• Determine if they want to commit to Strome or not. Again if no, trade him no self renting.
• Lock up Fox long term.
• Determine if they want to lock up Shesh long term.
• Find the mix of players to have a competent, defensively responsible 4th line who can PK (preferably some grit as well)
• Have a chat with Kreider with what they think his role should be going forward (3rd line with PP1 time)
• I think these two go hand and hand.. Determine what to do with Buch and if you think Kravstov has what it takes to be a top 6 winger on a Stanley Cup competing team in a couple of years.

 

[NYR Viper]

I think these are the high level things that need to be done or decided this summer as I feel the Rangers are at a bit of a crossroad.

• Determine if they want to commit to Zib or not. If not they really should trade him and need to find a solution somewhere via trade.
• Determine if they want to commit to Strome or not. Again if no, trade him no self renting.
• Lock up Fox long term.
• Determine if they want to lock up Shesh long term.
• Find the mix of players to have a competent, defensively responsible 4th line who can PK (preferably some grit as well)
• Have a chat with Kreider with what they think his role should be going forward (3rd line with PP1 time)
• I think these two go hand and hand.. Determine what to do with Buch and if you think Kravstov has what it takes to be a top 6 winger on a Stanley Cup competing team in a couple of years.

I would add only one thing:

• Add a solid bottom pairing veteran to insulate some of the young players. Preferrably someone who can play a physical style.

 

[Captain Monglobster]

• Have a chat with Kreider with what they think his role should be going forward (3rd line with PP1 time

'So how does Seattle sound?'

 

[gravey9]

I think these are the high level things that need to be done or decided this summer as I feel the Rangers are at a bit of a crossroad.

• Determine if they want to commit to Zib or not. If not they really should trade him and need to find a solution somewhere via trade.
• Determine if they want to commit to Strome or not. Again if no, trade him no self renting.
• Lock up Fox long term.
• Determine if they want to lock up Shesh long term.
• Find the mix of players to have a competent, defensively responsible 4th line who can PK (preferably some grit as well)
• Have a chat with Kreider with what they think his role should be going forward (3rd line with PP1 time)
• I think these two go hand and hand.. Determine what to do with Buch and if you think Kravstov has what it takes to be a top 6 winger on a Stanley Cup competing team in a couple of years.

I agree. I'd like Drury (and i guess, Drury?) to sit down and envision what he wants the roster to look like in 2 years when we are hopefully starting to make deep runs. What is the ideal mix of players in your top 6 F, the bottom 6 F? What does the ideal top 4 D look like? It's not so much about which players do we keep/lose as it is about envisioning the right mix of playing style/skill/size/speed/grit to play a winning style of hockey.

All the guys they need to make decisions on (that you mentioned) should be judged against how we get to the final product.

I don't think Strome, Buch, Zib can all be in the top 6 if we plan to turn the corner into contender. We already have Panarin and at least one of kakko and laf. As a result, I think only 1 of the SBZ are here in 2 years. maybe none.

 

[LaffyTaffyNYR]

I agree. I'd like Drury (and i guess, Drury?) to sit down and envision what he wants the roster to look like in 2 years when we are hopefully starting to make deep runs. What is the ideal mix of players in your top 6 F, the bottom 6 F? What does the ideal top 4 D look like? It's not so much about which players do we keep/lose as it is about envisioning the right mix of playing style/skill/size/speed/grit to play a winning style of hockey.

All the guys they need to make decisions on (that you mentioned) should be judged against how we get to the final product.

I don't think Strome, Buch, Zib can all be in the top 6 if we plan to turn the corner into contender. We already have Panarin and at least one of kakko and laf. As a result, I think only 1 of the SBZ are here in 2 years. maybe none.

Zibanejad is the only player of the 3 I envision being here past next year. Hopefully they trade the 2 other and acquire assets