Speculation: Roster Building Thread III (2021 Offseason) - “Simple Jack”, "Will over Skill", "Drury in a Hurry"?

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To be fair, you can make the argument that signing Panarin and re-signing Kreider were both more instant gratification moves. It's harder to talk about lack of fan patience if patience wasn't exhibited in full by the front office in the first place. They got the ball rolling on increased expectations by spending $125 million on those two players in their late 20s. Hard to blame the owner whose money you're chucking out the window, or the fans, for changing their expectations as the rebuild progressed.
How do you expect to win without excellent players?

Where are you going to find another player like Panarin? How often do you get a chance to sign one of the five best players in the league? Those were smart signings.

Kreider’s contract would look a lot better if the cap was $90MM.
 
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Good post. JD & Gorton themselves were sending mixed signals about the rebuild. The Trouba/Panarin/Kreider contracts dont exactly scream "patience". Not to mention letting Fast walk so he wouldnt block any of the young players from getting more ice time. only for that ice time to be given to Colin Blackwell.
You can’t win with 20 players on ELCs
 
Good post. JD & Gorton themselves were sending mixed signals about the rebuild. The Trouba/Panarin/Kreider contracts dont exactly scream "patience". Not to mention letting Fast walk so he wouldnt block any of the young players from getting more ice time. only for that ice time to be given to Colin Blackwell.
Letting Fast walk was a bad mistake.

Trouba was acquired when he was 25.
 
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How do you expect to win without excellent players?

Where are you going to find another player like Panarin? How often do you get a chance to sign one of the five best players in the league? Those were smart signings.

Kreider’s contract would look a lot better if the cap was $90MM.

Sure, you need veterans, but eventually you want your young guys to be ready to compete while your vets are still playing at a high level and worth their cap hit.

To that end, I wouldn’t have signed Panarin. However, I’ve changed my thoughts on that because he strikes me as the type of player who can age like MSL. High end talent, smart, and doesn’t take a beating.

The Kreider deal was a mistake from day 1. Flat cap or no. Lottery win or no. It’s a potential anchor and if his physical gifts start to dissipate then I have little faith that his hockey IQ will allow him to compensate. Maybe I’m wrong, but I doubt it. This team isn’t going to be ready and I see his less effective years aligning with our potential window. I think a good trade involving CK might’ve brought assets to be the cherry on top of the rebuild.

The Trouba deal was one that I liked. His age was right. His salary is def a little higher than I like, but I think the contract age and years work perfectly. I expect him to be a shut down defensemen for the duration of his deal.

Letting Fast walk was a mistake, but I understood the logic at least.

... and just to be clear, I wouldn’t have fired Gorton. I think he did a strong job overall. However, I can also put together a con list in regards to a number of moves so I can see the logic there. It makes me sick that JD got the axe though. It sounds like he stood up for his guy and paid the price.
 
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You can’t win with 20 players on ELCs

No arguments here, I think they need more veterans on this team. I also think the JD/Gorton/Quinn braintrust did a lot wrong in the last 12-18 months that I’m not exactly broken up about their firings
 
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Coleman is good at specific things we need that I'm willing to give up 10 points for and Buchnevich's reasonable contract has one year on it.
Coleman scored 31 in 55, 14 goals, so that is 46.2 points and 20.8 goals in a full year
Last 2 years for Coleman is 62 points in 121 games, 35 goals, so 42 points and 23.7 goals per 82 games

Buchnevich scored 48 in 54, 20 goals, so that is 72.8 points and 30.4 goals in a full year
Last 2 years for Buch is 94 points in122 games, 36 goals, so 63.2 points and 24.2 goals

So if you go by the last 2 years (and we all know Buch was more of a breakout year this year anyway), it is a lot closer to 20+ points being sacrificed... and even more if you use just this last year.

I'm not debating the merits of the main part of the argument, but saying a mere 10 points was completely disingenuous.

I'd still really like Coleman on this team as well.
 
I want to play too.

- Buch to EDM for Holloway and Khaira (+/- other bits like picks etc.)
- Chytil, Reunanen 2022 1st and 2021 BUF 3rd to SJS for Hertl
- Howden to SEA in the expansion draft
- Blackwell to the highest bidder (looking for a pick)
- Sign Lundkvist, Coleman, Goodrow and Oleksiak

Panarin - Hertl - Kakko
Lafreniere - Zibanejad - Coleman
Kreider - Strome - Kravtsov
Khaira - Rooney - Goodrow

Lindgren - Fox
Miller - Trouba
Oleksiak - Lundkvist

Shesterkin
Georgiev

Reassess around the trade deadline, in particular moving Strome, especially if Holloway forces the issue in the AHL.
 
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Letting Fast walk was a bad mistake.

Trouba was acquired when he was 25.

1 year later they are gonna sign a Fast replacement likely at over the 2 million he got

I do get why he wasn’t signed but then Quinn still played others over kids. Mind you Blackwell did earn it.
 
. This.

Dolan was as patient as a lot of posters here. They want everything to happen now. Instant gratification.

JD knew. He was talking about being patient from the first day he got here. He knew this team was still a year away.

Hopefully Drury uses his leverage to stick to the script.

Lol are you not the guy who says he has no time for a rebuild and wants to win instantly? Interesting...
 
To be fair, you can make the argument that signing Panarin and re-signing Kreider were both more instant gratification moves. It's harder to talk about lack of fan patience if patience wasn't exhibited in full by the front office in the first place. They got the ball rolling on increased expectations by spending $125 million on those two players in their late 20s. Hard to blame the owner whose money you're chucking out the window, or the fans, for changing their expectations as the rebuild progressed.


Patience was just a word being used, they were signing very expensive players to long term deals, setting themselves up to do more of the same, while putting every viable prospect into the NHL asap whether ready or not. The only thing limiting their "patience" was the cap ceiling which they filled up every year.
 
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I want to play too.

- Buch to EDM for Holloway and Khaira (+/- other bits like picks etc.)
- Chytil, Reunanen 2022 1st and 2021 BUF 3rd to SJS for Hertl
- Howden to SEA in the expansion draft
- Blackwell to the highest bidder (looking for a pick)
- Sign Lundkvist, Coleman, Goodrow and Oleksiak

Panarin - Hertl - Kakko
Lafreniere - Zibanejad - Coleman
Kreider - Strome - Kravtsov
Khaira - Rooney - Goodrow

Lindgren - Fox
Miller - Trouba
Oleksiak - Lundkvist

Shesterkin
Georgiev

Reassess around the trade deadline, in particular moving Strome, especially if Holloway forces the issue in the AHL.
Chytil 1:1 for hertl is a mistake. And you want to compound it by adding in firsts?
Chytil may end up on the wings, but production wise Chytil at the same age out produced hertl with only 5v5 time. Hertl has significant injury history and is approaching ufa.
This is the type of move a franchise makes and ruins them. Please see brassard for Mika.
 
You can’t win with 20 players on ELCs
Saying this as a counter to the idea that signing one of the most expensive players in the league to a long contract might not have been a great idea at the time is completely disingenuous and perfectly representative of the ad absurdum arguments that a lot of the holier than thou people on this board love to employ.
 
How do you expect to win without excellent players?

Where are you going to find another player like Panarin? How often do you get a chance to sign one of the five best players in the league? Those were smart signings.

Kreider’s contract would look a lot better if the cap was $90MM.

I don't. Noone should.

I wanted Panarin and I still want him. No brainer for me. But I don't know how seeing what he brings to the team doesn't change anyone's expectations for the team. He's dominant.

No problems with where Kreider's contract is in terms of value. It's a fair contract. A patience play would have been to trade him instead though.

The main point behind my post is 5 out of 6 guys in the top 6 are over 25 and in their primes. All of the guys soaking up the overwhelming majority of PP time are the same players. The guys playing down the stretch in close games are the same players. That is a win now age with a win now strategy to me is all. I just don't see how it was unreasonable to have expected playoffs at this juncture.
 
Chytil 1:1 for hertl is a mistake. And you want to compound it by adding in firsts?
Chytil may end up on the wings, but production wise Chytil at the same age out produced hertl with only 5v5 time. Hertl has significant injury history and is approaching ufa.
This is the type of move a franchise makes and ruins them. Please see brassard for Mika.
I think Brassard for Mika was a win/win to be honest and not a good comparison.
Brassard was critical to their ECF run (including a crucial GWG against us). They were a goal away from the SCF. Ottawa was pretty much all in at that point.
 
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Chytil 1:1 for hertl is a mistake. And you want to compound it by adding in firsts?
Chytil may end up on the wings, but production wise Chytil at the same age out produced hertl with only 5v5 time. Hertl has significant injury history and is approaching ufa.
This is the type of move a franchise makes and ruins them. Please see brassard for Mika.
Too funny
 
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I think Brassard for Mika was a win/win to be honest and not a good comparison.
Brassard was critical to their ECF run (including a crucial GWG against us). They were a goal away from the SCF. Ottawa was pretty much all in at that point.
brass for mika wasn't quite a win win. It was sacrificing long term for short term with salary considerations. Yes they came really close to SCF but at the expensive of a long term foundation.
 
We've had plenty of young players who have shown a lot of growth in limited roles, and over the years we've had many of them break out -- either with us or away from us -- when they've been given bigger opportunities and some leash to run with. We have Chytil crushing fourth line minutes at even strength as far as per/60 scoring goes, Kakko driving play through fantastic chance suppression in third/fourth line minutes, and even Lafreniere started to score at a great rate by the second half of the season with no PP time.

Looking at the current pinnacle of the league -- Tampa, Colorado -- these teams have done a phenomenal job at identifying players, in their system and outside of it. Colorado scooped Girard, Toews, Donskoi, and Burakovsky (two top pairing defensemen and two top six wingers) that almost immediately blossomed when given the roles that matched their pretty obvious abilities. Tampa did the same thing with Coleman last year. They didn't hesitate to move Stamkos to the wing when they saw what they had in Point and Cirelli. They shipped out their ppg captain to us because they knew they had Kucherov, Johnson, and Palat ready to fill in.

Even in the past, we've seen the same success play out here. Brassard, Zuccarello, Stralman. During the rebuild, Kevin Hayes played so well Brooks didn't want to let him go. Zibanejad stepped up after Stepan left. Buchnevich this year--let's be honest, he's improved surely, but he also was given a much larger role to begin the season and as a penalty killer no less.

The bottom line for this rebuild and the team's chances at contending for however long, is that success will depend on shifting responsibility to the younger wave, and better sooner than later. You have to know what you have in these kids. You can't be enamored with Strome the Panarin Whisperer so much that he's eating the PP time that Kakko and Lafreniere need, or the even strength minutes that you need Chytil to prove himself in. It's not a matter of having a team full of ELCs. It's about transitioning away from expensive and depreciating assets to others that you also expect to be expensive but that you can extract a lot more value from given their age, RFA status, and limited resumes. And the same logic applies when seeking UFAs or trades for veterans to fill out your roster. Not every dman we get should be a Trouba who will bend us over for 8mil a year. You need to find a top four guy who you can pay bottom four money for at least a brief window.
 
I don't. Noone should.

I wanted Panarin and I still want him. No brainer for me. But I don't know how seeing what he brings to the team doesn't change anyone's expectations for the team. He's dominant.

No problems with where Kreider's contract is in terms of value. It's a fair contract. A patience play would have been to trade him instead though.

The main point behind my post is 5 out of 6 guys in the top 6 are over 25 and in their primes. All of the guys soaking up the overwhelming majority of PP time are the same players. The guys playing down the stretch in close games are the same players. That is a win now age with a win now strategy to me is all. I just don't see how it was unreasonable to have expected playoffs at this juncture.

My view on Kreider's contract (and Trouba's as well) is that they were signed to assist in the rebuild in addition to producing on the ice. Having Kreider and Trouba signed long-term provides a stable leadership core for a young team. Kreider acts like the de facto captain and Trouba has clearly stepped up his leadership this season. Zibanejad is also a team leader, but he may not be in the long-term plans or may price himself out of the long-term plans. So I don't think Kreider was necessarily an impatient move.
 
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How do you expect to win without excellent players?

Where are you going to find another player like Panarin? How often do you get a chance to sign one of the five best players in the league? Those were smart signings.

Kreider’s contract would look a lot better if the cap was $90MM.
There are some guys you give a blank check to and Panarin is one of them, anyone regretting that signing is huffing solvents
 
My view on Kreider's contract (and Trouba's as well) is that they were signed to assist in the rebuild in addition to producing on the ice. Having Kreider and Trouba signed long-term provides a stable leadership core for a young team. Kreider acts like the de facto captain and Trouba has clearly stepped up his leadership this season. Zibanejad is also a team leader, but he may not be in the long-term plans or may price himself out of the long-term plans. So I don't think Kreider was necessarily an impatient move.

If this was the reason they were signed to these contracts then that was dumb as f***. Leadership is the most overrated quality in players. Young guys grow into leaders, some very quickly. You can already see that with Adam Fox.

Until they do, you can easily supplement them with solid veteran signings. There's absolutely no need to commit long term, high dollars to players simply because you want them to be leaders. These contracts are going to bite us in the ass, especially the Kreider one which may result in us losing Buchnevich who is already a superior player.

I'll also add, the concept of Kreider being a leader is just terrible to me. The guy literally disappears simply due to effort for like a quarter of the season every year.
 
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