decma
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- Feb 6, 2013
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In the 1982 off-season, the Flyers traded Linseman (their leading scorer from the previous season) and a first round pick in the 83 draft to the Whalers for Mark Howe (the trade also sent Greg C Adams to Hfd, and the teams swapped their 3rd round picks in the 83 draft).
Hfd immediately flipped Linseman and (Don Nachbaur) to Edm for Risto Siltanen (and Brent Loney).
Articles indicate that it was Phi that approached Hfd
.
The Flyers were in the process of re-building their D. Early the previous season, after a career-ending injury to Bob Dailey, they send Mel Bridgman to Cgy for Brad Marsh.
That trade didn't help much, and the Flyers finished 81-82 with their worst record in more than a decade and were bounced in the first round by the Rangers (winning game 1 in NY 4-1, but losing games 2 to 4 by a combined score of 18-11).
That June, they dealt Pete Peeters to Bos for Brad McCrimmon.
(Peeters had been the main goalie in the reg season, with Rick St. Croix as the primary backup and Pelle Lindbergh getting in a few games. In the 4-game loss to the Rangers, Peeters played all but 19 minutes, with a GAA of 4.65 and a save percentage of 0.840).
Then in August, they approached Hartford and offered Propp, Linseman, or Flockhart for Howe.
Hfd was concered with Howe's declining production and injury history, took the offer (also getting a first round pick).
From the Hockey News.
Perhaps, but both parties—the Whalers and Howe—have one thing in common: Each is slowly but steadily running out of opportunities.
Howe, at 27, has been a pro for nine years. He was a whiz in the World Hockey Association, hitting high-water marks of 42 goals and 107 points for the Whalers in the 1978-79 season. In three NHL seasons, Howe scored 80 points in 80 games, then missed 17 games with injuries, compiling 19 goals and 65 points in 63 games, and last year, scored but eight goals and 53 points.
The Whalers considered the trend dangerous. They were scared that if they waited much longer, say, another year or two, Howe’s market value would have dropped to almost nothing.
Hfd also got a first round pick and Greg Adams.
“The key was getting that first-round pick from Philly,” Whaler GM Larry Pleau said. “If we couldn’t get that, there wouldn’t have been a trade. This was an excellent opportunity for us to help ourselves for the future, and I think it will be an excellent opportunity for Mark Howe.”
It seems that Hfd had no intention of keeping the main forward they got for Howe, and chose Linseman over Propp and Flockhart because they thought he had the most trade value. RIght after the trade with Phi, they sent Linseman to Edm for Siltanen.
The Whalers really didn’t want Linseman, and discovered, much to their chagrin, that others didn’t either. Philly GM Keith Allen, in explaining the trade, said that Linseman “took too many stupid penalties,” but there were whispers concerning Linseman’s attitude. The Whalers, offered a choice of Brian Propp, Ron Flockhart or Linseman, chose Linseman, thinking that he was the most marketable. The price that the Whalers sought was Siltanen, a defenseman who can score, thereby helping to fill the hole left by Howe’s departure.
Linseman for Siltanen and Brent Loney sounds fair enough, but the Oilers held out for Nachbaur, a hard-trier of the top order. The Whalers originally wanted Dave Hunter, another left winger, but soon learned that Linseman’s market value wasn’t what they thought. So, they were forced to settle in Edmonton’s favor.
From the Whalers’ point of view, Siltanen should be a big help. He’s a proven NHL player. However, much depends on Adams, Loney and the No. 1 pick. If all turn out to be solid players, then the Howe trade must be considered a good one. If not, the Whalers have traded their best player for a whole lot of unfulfilled promise.
Opinions on the deal were mixed.
The Hockey New article excerpted above seems pretty neutral.
The NYT seemed to think Hfd did well, and that Phi would regress.
From their 82/83 season previews of Hfd and Phi:
Hartford Whalers - ... The defense lost Mark Howe but gained Risto Siltanen, not a bad exchange.
Philadelphia Flyers - The Flyers aren't expected to stay as close to the division leaders as in past years, primarily because of a questionable defense. They traded for Mark Howe, a good defenseman, and 23-year-old Brad McCrimmon, a disappointment in Boston, but it cost them last year's leading scorer, Ken Linseman, and a starting goalie, Pete Peeters. Now Pelle Lindbergh and Rick St. Croix share goal. Miroslav Dvorak, a Czech, looks like a major-league defenseman. At center, Philadelphia has Ron Flockhart, an exciting young speedster, Darryl Sittler, 33-year-old Bobby Clarke.
SI had the only reaction I could find that is consistent with what I expected, as they mocked the Whalers in their 82/83 season preview:
Speaking of teams not to look for—ladies and gentlemen, we give you the HARTFORD WHALERS. Last year Hartford traded its top draft choice for over-the-hill Rick MacLeish, and by midseason MacLeish was gone. This summer's gem was Mark Howe for Ken Linseman, whom the Whalers promptly dealt to Edmonton for Risto Siltanen. Risto Siltanen? For Mark Howe? Golly, golly, golly. For excitement, Hartford fans will be able to watch Blaine Stoughton and Pierre Larouche try to find their way back into the defensive zone while the team struggles to match the 21-41-18 record it had each of the last two seasons.
The first round pick Pleau was so excited to get ended being 20th overall, and Hfd took a US highschooler, David Jensen, who only had a cup of coffee in the NHL (Hfd did trade him to Wsh for Dean Evason, so they recouped some value).
After 3.5 seasons, Hfd dealt Siltanen to Que for John Anderson at the 86 deadline. Anderson was exceptional for Hfd down the stretch and in the playoffs, so I guess some more value recouped there.
An article on the 86 Que-Hfd trade included many quotations describing Siltanen in very favorable terms, with some mixed opinions.
The Quebec Nordiques' bold acquisition of Finnish defenseman Risto Siltanen has the Montreal Canadiens worried.
'Personally, I'd rather see Siltanen stay in Hartford or come to Montreal,' Canadiens' general manager Serge Savard said Monday prior to his team's game against the Whalers.
'That kind of intra-division trade surprises me,' Canadiens' coach Jean Perron said. 'Siltanen knows the Adams Division teams well. He's a good player. It's quite an acquisition for the Nordiques.'
'He has the same style as Raymond Bourque,' Perron said. 'He's a specialist at passing the puck to a teammate who is in full flight. With players like Michel Goulet and Peter Stastny at his side, there's a lot of promise.'
Canadiens' defenseman Larry Robinson said Siltanen is not strong defensively, but has one of the best shots from the point.
While the Canadiens cringe at the prospect of Siltanen joining the Nordiques, the Quebec players are delighted. Nordiques' captain Peter Stastny said he was stunned that Siltanen was available.
'If you asked me to name the three or four best offensive defensemen in the league, I'd say Paul Coffey, Raymond Bourque, Mark Howe and Siltanen,' Stastny said. 'He is good defensively and superb on offense. He never misses any of the action and his anticipation is above average.
'He will solve a defensive problem on our team by bringing a new dimension to our attack. Instead of getting rid of the puck, he always manages to find an opening to launch a quick counter-attack. A good play by Siltanen can change the tone of a game.'
Whalers' assistant coach Claude Larose acknowledged that Siltanen has a lot of talent, but said he is inconsistent.
'He doesn't want to play every night,' Larose said. 'He never has any reaction, whether he wins or loses or when he is hurt or in good condition.'
Sorry for the long backstory, but I wanted to get people's views on the trades and the immediate reactions to them.
Was Siltanen that highly regarded? I remember him as a decent offensive defenseman, but nothing special.
When did post-trade articles stop being so candid?
How would the rest of the 80s have unfolded for Hfd if they hadn't traded Howe?
Where would they be if they had chosen Propp instead of Linseman? If they keep him instead of flipping him to Edm, does it mean that at the 83 draft they pass on S. Turgeon (another LW), and take Yzerman instead? (I assume they still pass on Lafontaine because of the medical issue).
If the Edm trade still goes ahead in this hypotethetical world, does Edm put Propp with Gretzky and Kurri, and there is no Krushelnsyki trade a couple years later? Or do they put Propp with Messier and Anderson (instead of Messier-Linseman-Anderson)?
Has a team overhauled their D (and reduced their number of high-PIM players) as quickly as Phi did?
(add Behn Wilson for Doug Crossman, in the summer of 83, and you have Bridgman, Linseman, Peeters and Wilson gone for Howe, McCrimmon, Crossman, and Marsh).
DId the trade hurt Phi in the short-run? They got swept in the 83 playoffs (by NYR) and the 84 playoffs (by Wsh). Lindbergh wasn't great in either series. With Peeters in net and Linseman up front do they do better?
Hfd immediately flipped Linseman and (Don Nachbaur) to Edm for Risto Siltanen (and Brent Loney).
Articles indicate that it was Phi that approached Hfd
.
The Flyers were in the process of re-building their D. Early the previous season, after a career-ending injury to Bob Dailey, they send Mel Bridgman to Cgy for Brad Marsh.
That trade didn't help much, and the Flyers finished 81-82 with their worst record in more than a decade and were bounced in the first round by the Rangers (winning game 1 in NY 4-1, but losing games 2 to 4 by a combined score of 18-11).
That June, they dealt Pete Peeters to Bos for Brad McCrimmon.
(Peeters had been the main goalie in the reg season, with Rick St. Croix as the primary backup and Pelle Lindbergh getting in a few games. In the 4-game loss to the Rangers, Peeters played all but 19 minutes, with a GAA of 4.65 and a save percentage of 0.840).
Then in August, they approached Hartford and offered Propp, Linseman, or Flockhart for Howe.
Hfd was concered with Howe's declining production and injury history, took the offer (also getting a first round pick).
From the Hockey News.
Perhaps, but both parties—the Whalers and Howe—have one thing in common: Each is slowly but steadily running out of opportunities.
Howe, at 27, has been a pro for nine years. He was a whiz in the World Hockey Association, hitting high-water marks of 42 goals and 107 points for the Whalers in the 1978-79 season. In three NHL seasons, Howe scored 80 points in 80 games, then missed 17 games with injuries, compiling 19 goals and 65 points in 63 games, and last year, scored but eight goals and 53 points.
The Whalers considered the trend dangerous. They were scared that if they waited much longer, say, another year or two, Howe’s market value would have dropped to almost nothing.
Hfd also got a first round pick and Greg Adams.
“The key was getting that first-round pick from Philly,” Whaler GM Larry Pleau said. “If we couldn’t get that, there wouldn’t have been a trade. This was an excellent opportunity for us to help ourselves for the future, and I think it will be an excellent opportunity for Mark Howe.”
It seems that Hfd had no intention of keeping the main forward they got for Howe, and chose Linseman over Propp and Flockhart because they thought he had the most trade value. RIght after the trade with Phi, they sent Linseman to Edm for Siltanen.
The Whalers really didn’t want Linseman, and discovered, much to their chagrin, that others didn’t either. Philly GM Keith Allen, in explaining the trade, said that Linseman “took too many stupid penalties,” but there were whispers concerning Linseman’s attitude. The Whalers, offered a choice of Brian Propp, Ron Flockhart or Linseman, chose Linseman, thinking that he was the most marketable. The price that the Whalers sought was Siltanen, a defenseman who can score, thereby helping to fill the hole left by Howe’s departure.
Linseman for Siltanen and Brent Loney sounds fair enough, but the Oilers held out for Nachbaur, a hard-trier of the top order. The Whalers originally wanted Dave Hunter, another left winger, but soon learned that Linseman’s market value wasn’t what they thought. So, they were forced to settle in Edmonton’s favor.
From the Whalers’ point of view, Siltanen should be a big help. He’s a proven NHL player. However, much depends on Adams, Loney and the No. 1 pick. If all turn out to be solid players, then the Howe trade must be considered a good one. If not, the Whalers have traded their best player for a whole lot of unfulfilled promise.
Opinions on the deal were mixed.
The Hockey New article excerpted above seems pretty neutral.
The NYT seemed to think Hfd did well, and that Phi would regress.
From their 82/83 season previews of Hfd and Phi:
Hartford Whalers - ... The defense lost Mark Howe but gained Risto Siltanen, not a bad exchange.
Philadelphia Flyers - The Flyers aren't expected to stay as close to the division leaders as in past years, primarily because of a questionable defense. They traded for Mark Howe, a good defenseman, and 23-year-old Brad McCrimmon, a disappointment in Boston, but it cost them last year's leading scorer, Ken Linseman, and a starting goalie, Pete Peeters. Now Pelle Lindbergh and Rick St. Croix share goal. Miroslav Dvorak, a Czech, looks like a major-league defenseman. At center, Philadelphia has Ron Flockhart, an exciting young speedster, Darryl Sittler, 33-year-old Bobby Clarke.
SI had the only reaction I could find that is consistent with what I expected, as they mocked the Whalers in their 82/83 season preview:
Speaking of teams not to look for—ladies and gentlemen, we give you the HARTFORD WHALERS. Last year Hartford traded its top draft choice for over-the-hill Rick MacLeish, and by midseason MacLeish was gone. This summer's gem was Mark Howe for Ken Linseman, whom the Whalers promptly dealt to Edmonton for Risto Siltanen. Risto Siltanen? For Mark Howe? Golly, golly, golly. For excitement, Hartford fans will be able to watch Blaine Stoughton and Pierre Larouche try to find their way back into the defensive zone while the team struggles to match the 21-41-18 record it had each of the last two seasons.
The first round pick Pleau was so excited to get ended being 20th overall, and Hfd took a US highschooler, David Jensen, who only had a cup of coffee in the NHL (Hfd did trade him to Wsh for Dean Evason, so they recouped some value).
After 3.5 seasons, Hfd dealt Siltanen to Que for John Anderson at the 86 deadline. Anderson was exceptional for Hfd down the stretch and in the playoffs, so I guess some more value recouped there.
An article on the 86 Que-Hfd trade included many quotations describing Siltanen in very favorable terms, with some mixed opinions.
The Quebec Nordiques' bold acquisition of Finnish defenseman Risto Siltanen has the Montreal Canadiens worried.
'Personally, I'd rather see Siltanen stay in Hartford or come to Montreal,' Canadiens' general manager Serge Savard said Monday prior to his team's game against the Whalers.
'That kind of intra-division trade surprises me,' Canadiens' coach Jean Perron said. 'Siltanen knows the Adams Division teams well. He's a good player. It's quite an acquisition for the Nordiques.'
'He has the same style as Raymond Bourque,' Perron said. 'He's a specialist at passing the puck to a teammate who is in full flight. With players like Michel Goulet and Peter Stastny at his side, there's a lot of promise.'
Canadiens' defenseman Larry Robinson said Siltanen is not strong defensively, but has one of the best shots from the point.
While the Canadiens cringe at the prospect of Siltanen joining the Nordiques, the Quebec players are delighted. Nordiques' captain Peter Stastny said he was stunned that Siltanen was available.
'If you asked me to name the three or four best offensive defensemen in the league, I'd say Paul Coffey, Raymond Bourque, Mark Howe and Siltanen,' Stastny said. 'He is good defensively and superb on offense. He never misses any of the action and his anticipation is above average.
'He will solve a defensive problem on our team by bringing a new dimension to our attack. Instead of getting rid of the puck, he always manages to find an opening to launch a quick counter-attack. A good play by Siltanen can change the tone of a game.'
Whalers' assistant coach Claude Larose acknowledged that Siltanen has a lot of talent, but said he is inconsistent.
'He doesn't want to play every night,' Larose said. 'He never has any reaction, whether he wins or loses or when he is hurt or in good condition.'
Sorry for the long backstory, but I wanted to get people's views on the trades and the immediate reactions to them.
Was Siltanen that highly regarded? I remember him as a decent offensive defenseman, but nothing special.
When did post-trade articles stop being so candid?
How would the rest of the 80s have unfolded for Hfd if they hadn't traded Howe?
Where would they be if they had chosen Propp instead of Linseman? If they keep him instead of flipping him to Edm, does it mean that at the 83 draft they pass on S. Turgeon (another LW), and take Yzerman instead? (I assume they still pass on Lafontaine because of the medical issue).
If the Edm trade still goes ahead in this hypotethetical world, does Edm put Propp with Gretzky and Kurri, and there is no Krushelnsyki trade a couple years later? Or do they put Propp with Messier and Anderson (instead of Messier-Linseman-Anderson)?
Has a team overhauled their D (and reduced their number of high-PIM players) as quickly as Phi did?
(add Behn Wilson for Doug Crossman, in the summer of 83, and you have Bridgman, Linseman, Peeters and Wilson gone for Howe, McCrimmon, Crossman, and Marsh).
DId the trade hurt Phi in the short-run? They got swept in the 83 playoffs (by NYR) and the 84 playoffs (by Wsh). Lindbergh wasn't great in either series. With Peeters in net and Linseman up front do they do better?
