Re-tooling For One More Run With This Core

[Dreakmur]

He was sick for a bit of the series, thought that was common knowledge?

It’s easier to fool somebody than it is to convince them that they’ve been fooled.

 

[Shooter2x]

Yes, close.

Pretty even series.

Leafs just needed something from the bottom 6.

And this is why you have the modern army forming of pro core 4, but anti Dubas and Keefe.

Dubas self explanatory. Doesn't have the faintest idea how to surround them with playoff winners.

Keefe...lol starts game 4 with two of our worst forwards that series, which sets the tone for the whole game. Hoodwinked him with their 2 minutes of sniping the empty net. Blood pressure is raising now thinking about Keefe going to stop myself here.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Throwing out some hockey-sounding cliches is generic fluff.

It wasn't "hockey-sounding cliches" or "general fluff". You asked a question (that was already answered), you got the answer (again), and then you ignored that answer and blamed others for your lack of acknowledgement. We can talk specifics all you want, but the simple fact is, when a player is playing against a high quality line and a high quality defensive team, they will have less time, space, options, opportunities, etc., and they will look worse. If you think it's hockey cliche, that's only because it's such established basic fact, to the point where I don't know how you're still arguing against it.

I offered possible reasons for what I saw.

The idea that he just suddenly decided to not try sometimes only against us is not a possible reason, and outside of some possible mild symptoms before 1 game (which didn't seem to affect him at all against Florida), there is zero evidence of him being sick or injured through our series, and he ended the season red hot. So no, you did not offer possible reasons. You ignored the obvious reason, and claimed specific reasons we know to be untrue, because they most discredited the Leaf's impact.

When you're wrong as often as you are, you should be used to people telling you that.

Not sure what you're talking about, because while everybody's wrong sometimes, I'm rarely wrong on here. It's not that hard when you stick to the actual facts instead of making baseless claims. Everything I said was accurate, which is why you're unable to actually point to anything specific.

 

[Dreakmur]

It wasn't "hockey-sounding cliches" or "general fluff". You asked a question (that was already answered), you got the answer (again), and then you ignored that answer and blamed others for your lack of acknowledgement. We can talk specifics all you want, but the simple fact is, when a player is playing against a high quality line and a high quality defensive team, they will have less time, space, options, opportunities, etc., and they will look worse. If you think it's hockey cliche, that's only because it's such established basic fact, to the point where I don't know how you're still arguing against it.

Yes, players look worse when they're up against strong opposition, but they look worse in a very specific way. That wasn't the case with what I saw from Kucherov.

The idea that he just suddenly decided to not try sometimes only against us is not a possible reason, and outside of some possible mild symptoms before 1 game (which didn't seem to affect him at all against Florida), there is zero evidence of him being sick or injured through our series, and he ended the season red hot. So no, you did not offer possible reasons. You ignored the obvious reason, and claimed specific reasons we know to be untrue, because they most discredited the Leaf's impact.

I can't watch the games for you. You're just going to have to pay attention next time.

Not sure what you're talking about, because while everybody's wrong sometimes, I'm rarely wrong on here. It's not that hard when you stick to the actual facts instead of making baseless claims. Everything I said was accurate, which is why you're unable to actually point to anything specific.

Oh yeah, I forgot we beat Columbus like you said we would.... and Montreal like you said we would... and Tampa Bay like you said we would.... you sure are right a lot.

 

[Bluelines]

It was there for the taking. Went into the 3rd of game 6 with a one goal lead and tampa scored the next 4/5 goals. Series over.

It would be nice if Toronto could develop that DNA that allows them to close out games once they get the lead, for what ever reason no lead is safe for the Leafs, they want to push the pace every game, no matter the score and beat their current score vs getting the lead and managing the clock. There is a time to push the pace and a time to manage the clock, I'm not sure Keefe/Dubas/Shanny understands the latter. There is a way to defend where you don't give grade A after grade A scoring chances. I get that Trotz's style is not the Maple Leaf high powered octane type of game, his style is the opposite of our style but man I respect that mans game. Someone like a Boucher or a Trotz for an assistant coach , that can teach how to play shut down hockey is IMO the biggest missing piece. MacLean in the press box is that type of coach, not sure how much influence he has on the style of game the Leafs play. If Keefe gets fired next year I suspect (hope) MacLean is the next in line.

 

[ACC1224]

It was there for the taking. Went into the 3rd of game 6 with a one goal lead and tampa scored the next 4/5 goals. Series over.

Yep, Keefe shouldn’t have survived this yet again.

 

[justashadowof]

"Respect" in the handshake line means a lot to Sheldon Keefe apparently.

From wikipedia:

Keefe and the Colts drew national attention for their on- and off-ice behaviour which called into question the character of the players. Upon winning the OHL championship, Keefe, as captain of the Colts, infamously refused to shake the hand of league commissioner David Branch, telling him, "this must burn your ass." At the Memorial Cup, the team walked out on a customary banquet, threatened members of the opposing Rimouski Oceanic, and refused to shake hands with Branch, also serving as Canadian Hockey League president, during pregame ceremonies.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Yes, players look worse when they're up against strong opposition, but they look worse in a very specific way.

How it affects players can vary (especially depending on the specifics of the opposition), but they often look pretty much exactly like Kucherov looked. Seems like the issue here is that you're wildly overestimating your own ability to diagnose through a TV screen and accurately deduce the reasons behind the things you're seeing. Heck, even within your own narrative, you haven't established your reason, because you know that there's no actual justification for any of the reasons you've claimed. You've just made sure to argue against the one reason that's obviously true, because that would involve giving credit to Toronto.

Oh yeah, I forgot we beat Columbus like you said we would.... and Montreal like you said we would... and Tampa Bay like you said we would.... you sure are right a lot.

Not sure what you're even talking about, because that's not even something I make statements on. I've never guaranteed a playoff outcome. I've discussed those matchups, and like most of the hockey world, I thought we had a decent chance of winning (and we did), but I've always maintained that lots can happen within a 5 or 7 game set, and I've given more respect to the opposition than most Leaf fans. My position has always been supported by the facts, my position has been largely aligned with the bulk of the hockey community, and we're talking about the slimmest possible margins for the outcomes we got, so not sure why you're acting like this is some "gotcha", and not just misrepresenting me in an entirely unrelated discussion to deflect away from the fact that I was correct about everything I said here.

 

[Not My Tempo]

	17-19	20-22
GF/60	RS: 2.79 P: 2.22	RS: 2.92 P: 1.79
xGF/60	RS: 2.57 P: 2.4	RS: 2.67 P: 2.42
GA/60	RS: 2.42 P: 2.39	RS: 2.55 P: 1.98
xGA/60	RS: 2.52 P: 2.45	RS: 2.3 P: 2.05
SH%	RS: 8.95 P: 7.27	RS: 9.15 P: 5.63
Sv%	RS: 92.53 P: 92.87	RS: 91.34 P: 92.94

Under Keefe, our playoff SH% at 5v5 takes a huge nosedive. Obviously a part of it is that we play better defensive teams in the playoffs than the regular season.

 

[ULF_55]

So how much would you retain on marner in a trade?

Good thing is it would only be for 3 years.

I'd guess 2.5 would be reasonable.

 

[ShameOnYouZidlicky]

Pretty sure this thread was created last year and will be made again after round 1 next year

 

[egd27]

How it's pretending when there is no such evidence that he was conveniently sick for two weeks that first round lasted and after that in few days his back to his normal self?

You can pretend he was sick or show some evidence. You are the one that is pretending.

I don't even know why. We lost, we weren't good enough, but we don't have to make excuses for their star players to make it look even worse.

Perhaps not for 2 weeks, but......

From sick to sick moves: How Kucherov's “world-class” play sparked Lightning in Game 1

As he has done so many times before, Kucherov was there for the Lightning in big moments vs. the Panthers.

theathletic.com

But this game wasn’t the same after Kucherov put his fingerprints all over it late in the second period. He had been dealing with flu-like symptoms since before Saturday’s Game 7 against the Leafs, but is starting to get over it now, and it showed in his play.

 

[Trapper]

So how much would you retain on marner in a trade?

Good thing is it would only be for 3 years.

I'd guess 2.5 would be reasonable.

I wouldn’t trade Marner at this point.
No matter what, Matthews/Marner firm 2/3rds of one of the best lines in hockey and will most likely carry you to the playoffs.

Ideally you would move JT, you could build an entire line with that salary but you can’t.

With Nylander coming up to UFA in 2 years, he’s the one that would make the impact trade if a quality center (move JT to the wing) and D. Or a new core player that changes the hunger and dynamic. Nylander makes 7 mil now, I have no interest paying his UFA salary. Too many will be coming up to 3rd UFA salaries and we have yet to show something. That’s a needed dynamic change. The Primeau for Shanahan. Bobby Ryan for Silfverberg/high pick for a new ELC talent, etc.

 

[ULF_55]

I wouldn’t trade Marner at this point.
No matter what, Matthews/Marner firm 2/3rds of one of the best lines in hockey and will most likely carry you to the playoffs.

Ideally you would move JT, you could build an entire line with that salary but you can’t.

With Nylander coming up to UFA in 2 years, he’s the one that would make the impact trade if a quality center (move JT to the wing) and D. Or a new core player that changes the hunger and dynamic. Nylander makes 7 mil now, I have no interest paying his UFA salary. Too many will be coming up to 3rd UFA salaries and we have yet to show something. That’s a needed dynamic change. The Primeau for Shanahan. Bobby Ryan for Silfverberg/high pick for a new ELC talent, etc.

So is McKinnon going to double his salary?

Going to be a tough signing there next year.

Not sure what Leafs would have to add to marner for McKinnon?

 

[Trapper]

So is McKinnon going to double his salary?

Going to be a tough signing there next year.

Not sure what Leafs would have to add to marner for McKinnon?

Those are pipe dream trades. People always want big for bigger. Sometimes it’s better fit/form and function.
1 for 2/3 guys.
Look at the playoffs. Kadri with a hat trick. Bozak with the OT winner. Hyman 9 points/11 games. We had these guys. Did they suddenly learn to play hockey? Or is it better balance? The knock has been 4 guys taking up half the Cap. Too too heavy/etc.

 

[Menzinger]

So how much would you retain on marner in a trade?

Good thing is it would only be for 3 years.

I'd guess 2.5 would be reasonable.

I don't see the reason to. He's viewed as a great payer around the league. In if the Leafs put him on the market teams will be interested at full price. Look at Eichel - didn't see the Sabres retaining and he was facing massive surgery too.

 

[Menzinger]

I wouldn’t trade Marner at this point.
No matter what, Matthews/Marner firm 2/3rds of one of the best lines in hockey and will most likely carry you to the playoffs.

Ideally you would move JT, you could build an entire line with that salary but you can’t.

With Nylander coming up to UFA in 2 years, he’s the one that would make the impact trade if a quality center (move JT to the wing) and D. Or a new core player that changes the hunger and dynamic. Nylander makes 7 mil now, I have no interest paying his UFA salary. Too many will be coming up to 3rd UFA salaries and we have yet to show something. That’s a needed dynamic change. The Primeau for Shanahan. Bobby Ryan for Silfverberg/high pick for a new ELC talent, etc.

Though if the desire is to seriously remake the core, I don't know one can do that without moving out one of the 3 11 mil guys. Doing so opens up the most capspace, garners probably the biggest returns and sends by far the biggest message to the remaining players.

My personal preference is to keep it intact and reevaluate when the first of the group is heading into their final contract season in the summer. But if they're going to make moves, I think you have to start at the top of the teams cap structure

 

[deprw]

Perhaps not for 2 weeks, but......

From sick to sick moves: How Kucherov's “world-class” play sparked Lightning in Game 1

As he has done so many times before, Kucherov was there for the Lightning in big moments vs. the Panthers.

theathletic.com

But this game wasn’t the same after Kucherov put his fingerprints all over it late in the second period. He had been dealing with flu-like symptoms since before Saturday’s Game 7 against the Leafs, but is starting to get over it now, and it showed in his play.

Yay! The explanation was that he was during the series. He was bad trough out compared to his normal self, but he was sick only last game. Like said. I rolled some gametape and like I said I think his performance on ice was pretty much Matthews line and Muzzin-Brodie playing well against Stamkos line.

 

[Da Cool Rula]

Trade Nylander for PL Dubois. Trade for Ryan Reaves. Nuff said

 

[saffronleaf]

is there any possibility of moving on from tavares or no

 

[Da Cool Rula]

is there any possibility of moving on from tavares or no

No

 

[notDatsyuk]

is there any possibility of moving on from tavares or no

There are a few possibilities:

- career ending injury (LTIR)
- league/NHLPA could agree to another one-time free buyout of a bad contract
- demote him to the fourth line and play him 8 minutes a game, and maybe he'll waive his NMC
- wait three years.

 

[saffronleaf]

There are a few possibilities:

- career ending injury (LTIR)
- league/NHLPA could agree to another one-time free buyout of a bad contract
- demote him to the fourth line and play him 8 minutes a game, and maybe he'll waive his NMC - wait three years.

first one of course you hope never happens; second one not in dubas' control... 3rd one idk, would be a real bad look for the franchise.

so basically no lol

 

[notDatsyuk]

first one of course you hope never happens; second one not in dubas' control... 3rd one idk, would be a real bad look for the franchise.

so basically no lol

Agreed - the only real option is the fourth (you got in too quick before my edit): wait three years.

So basically: no (and not a laughing matter).

 

[ANDI P IS CUTE]

I'll run it back...

With Marner, Reilly and Muzzin in Calgary...and Matthews and Holl in Ottawa.

Brady Tkachuk - Tavares - Nylander (26m)
Bunting - Kadri - Matthew Tkachuk (17m)
Bunting - Kampf - E Kane (6m)
Engvall - Blackwell - Kase (4m)

Chabot - R Andersson (12.5m)
TJ Brodie - Liljegren (6.5m)
Sandin - Lyubushkin (2.5m)

Ville Husso (3m)
Mrazek (3.8m)

bunting twice?